World of Warcraft®

12/04/2012 18:52Posted by Caelheim

Orcish 'honour' died in Draenor. The race exists for war and is an invasive species, something I really wish the lore team would just outright admit instead of trying to paint them as noble savages. The tauren fit that description far more, as do the night elves - at least when both races aren't being watered down.

Absolutely!

Orcs and tauren are not the same. I like it that in Warcraft there are ''noble'' orcs but they should be a minority, the major bulk of the orcs are brute warriors who don't mind to crack some skulls. The difference between orcs and tauren should be emphasized more, for the sake of diversity.

Garrosh is a great warchief, it sucks what they're going to do with him but I guess he just doesn't fit with the ''green savage human'' theme.

Some may argue that Thrall is an exception, but he hardly acts like an orc and is pretty much a green human these days. Albeit one with superpowers.

He's a human in an orc skin :)

He was good to have in the past and refreshing back then, but I sure hope he won't return as warchief.

12/04/2012 20:00Posted by Blayzereborn

They'll never do that. Remember how they whitewashed Doomhammer?

Ngh. I guess so, especially given their handling of the forsaken. It really ticks me off that the slightest slip up by the Alliance results in massive consequences - such as with Garithos and Taurajo - whilst the Horde near constantly get away with...pretty much everything.

12/04/2012 20:20Posted by Caelheim

Ngh. I guess so, especially given their handling of the forsaken. It really ticks me off that the slightest slip up by the Alliance results in massive consequences - such as with Garithos and Taurajo - whilst the Horde near constantly get away with...pretty much everything.

There's a reason for this, it's called blatant favoritism. Even characters who weren't really "Alliance" such as Garithos who had no legitimation whatsoever are used to show that the alliance "isn't so different afterall".
I liked Taurajo, how they played the whole thing up. I was standing there, looking at that guy and on my face I must've had the "are you serious?!" expression. Since I just recently went through hillsbrad, ashenvale and some other zones.
Just think about Silberwind Refuge, they slaughtered anyone there, including civilists. And unlike they alliance we didn't even tried to let anyone get away, actually most of the time it's the opposite.

It kind of feels like being part of a group who's kicking a kid who's lying on the ground crying and trying to defend his head with his arms. Then someone who passes by dares to look at said group and they're all up in arms about that. "Yo man, you looking at us? You trying to start a fight? Stop discriminating us!"
I kind of don't want to be part of said group. If we were at least admitting that we're evil I'd like it way more. Then I could go and train my high pitched evil laughter or something like that.

12/04/2012 20:00Posted by Blayzereborn

They'll never do that. Remember how they whitewashed Doomhammer?

I liked that one. They're busy dismantling the alliance for a very long time. They pretty much copy pasted all the good aspects to Thrall news horde, while watering them down when it came to the alliance. The problem is, they took any and every kind of appeal the alliance might've had and what they stood for away from them by doing so.

I liked Taurajo, how they played the whole thing up. I was standing there, looking at that guy and on my face I must've had the "are you serious?!" expression.

I recently played through Southern Barrens on my Horde alt. I laughed at the orcish questgiver who told me about Taurajo and called the Alliance "a renegade band of butchers."

Then I met Calder Grey, who had me hack apart corpses for usable body parts and told me to steal an officer's brain for him to stick in an abomination.

"Now the secret here is to leave the reptilian nervous systems intact while removing the higher cognitive functions. We can't have our new friend developing a conscience or remembering he's Alliance..."

12/04/2012 22:16Posted by Erìs

They pretty much copy pasted all the good aspects to Thrall news horde, while watering them down when it came to the alliance.

Yeah, unfortunately. I didn't mind seeing the Horde gain access to the paladin class at first, since Blood Knights were notably different and blatantly morally grey...at least until one of the Alliance's leaders intervened to grant them access to the same power that once gave the Alliance an edge over the Horde.

In fact, are there any cases of prominent human paladins popping up that are actually aligned with the Alliance? I can't think of any offhand, since most seem to have been sucked up by the Argent Crusade. It really does feel as if the Alliance is an afterthought to pretty much everything these days and I struggle to think of anything we have that the Horde doesn't. I would cling to naval superiority, but our ships are shown to be easily countered by the same Horde that also boasts apparent aerial superiority as well.

Just take a look at the implimentation of the Draenei, Blizzard later admitted that they took to much time coming up with an Alliance equivalent to the Hordes Blood Elves. They're poorly portrayed at best, there's hardly any kind of real lore about them and they're pretty much absent even on outland. It's all about the Blood Elves.
And about what lore there is, an Alliance player doesn't even learn about it. Just take a look at the Oshu'gun, it's the very ship the Draenei escaped from Argus with. I was baffled to find out there are no quests at all to explain this to Alliance characters.
I must admit I created an worgen, mostly out of curiosity after I've seen the Horde side of the whole thing. Again it felt like the majority of the whole thing that goes on, is only seen by the Horde.
On top of that Worgen were poorly done, especially the female ones. They weren't "finished" right before the realease of Cataclysm and the female Worgen still suffer from horrible clipping errors and look unfished, bonus points for most of them all looking alike.
Also there's no Worgen presence outside of their starting zone, they're hardly ever mentioned and don't play a big role in anything.

As a Goblin I got Azshara, I got a part of Orgrimmar, I see Goblins running all over the place doing awesome stuff. It's us building most of the material the Horde is using now, piloting their airships...

One probably has to play both sides to notice how big the gap is at times. And it really doesn't make me want to play my twink rogue anymore.

You know what is ironic in a most bittersweet manner? The most popular race Horde side...is a former Alliance race. Draenei and worgen - and Highborne if we want to include them, since they're technically a different 'race' of elves - are simply both shoved in with the night elves and exist solely as flavour NPC's that pop up here and there with a few tiny scraps of intrigue.

I think that's why the Horde got Blood Elves in the first place. ;)

13/04/2012 00:38Posted by Erìs

I think that's why the Horde got Blood Elves in the first place. ;)

Mm. I used to be one myself before tiring of them after their redemption plotline. It eroded away much of what intrigued me about the race in the first place. Yet as someone who role-plays actively, I've spoken to many blood elf lore fans over the years and many of them...don't care for the Horde at all. I suppose I'm the same, really - I liked the faction back when it was the underdog and wasn't so...'evil'.

I liked Taurajo, how they played the whole thing up. I was standing there, looking at that guy and on my face I must've had the "are you serious?!" expression. Since I just recently went through hillsbrad, ashenvale and some other zones.
Just think about Silberwind Refuge, they slaughtered anyone there, including civilists. And unlike they alliance we didn't even tried to let anyone get away, actually most of the time it's the opposite.

You didn't really get it, did you?
Taurajo was a place where Horde hunters used to learn. It wasn't used for war purposes, and even if it did train troops, it was not the reason why horde consider it a butchery.
Civilians were killed when all hunters of the village were hunting in the barrens. Taurajo could not defend itself.

Silverwind Refuge on the other hand was used for war in WSG and it was havily defended.

I liked Taurajo, how they played the whole thing up. I was standing there, looking at that guy and on my face I must've had the "are you serious?!" expression. Since I just recently went through hillsbrad, ashenvale and some other zones.
Just think about Silberwind Refuge, they slaughtered anyone there, including civilists. And unlike they alliance we didn't even tried to let anyone get away, actually most of the time it's the opposite.

You didn't really get it, did you?
Taurajo was a place where Horde hunters used to learn. It wasn't used for war purposes, and even if it did train troops, it was not the reason why horde consider it a butchery.
Civilians were killed when all hunters of the village were hunting in the barrens. Taurajo could not defend itself.

Silverwind Refuge on the other hand was used for war in WSG and it was havily defended.

You are mixing up Silverwind with Silverwing. The former was a peaceful night elven village, the latter is a sentinel army.

The problem isn't that the horde slaughters civilian and the alliance does not, or vice versa, but the fact that horde players whining about Camp Taurajo makes them hypocrites, which is probably blizzard fault for not giving horde attacks on alliance civilians (which by the way is something they have done since Vanilla) any sort of reaction.

That is why the whole "Alliance needs an event that makes the fully commit to the war" so ridiculous. They aren't United States trying to remain neutral that needs a Pearl Harbour to realise that the war is going to affect them as well. If anything the alliance is like Russia and what they need is a Stalingrad so they can turn the horde offensive.

I CANT wait to drop bombs on theramore!

All the people here moaning on how terrible it will be, and how evil the Horde is. Yes were evil. Yes we are at war! Yes we will drop bombs.

Again, cant wait to see the mushroom on theramore!

I CANT wait to drop bombs on theramore!

All the people here moaning on how terrible it will be, and how evil the Horde is. Yes were evil. Yes we are at war! Yes we will drop bombs.

Again, cant wait to see the mushroom on theramore!

we re not complaining about the horde being "evil". Actions cannot speak for entire factions thus many night elf fans grind their teeth at Varian and the hordes evil streaks are basically orcs and forsaken (used to be blood elves then they got redeemed, but still have acted pretty badly)

but Trolls and Tauren have distanced themselves from the horde regime it seems to an extent. But the main problem here is that the alliance cannot stop a single horde ship from crushing a huge alliance city that once waged war on the entire horde back in warcraft 3.

Also why do we need an event to commit us to war? This goes to show how incompetant they like to make the alliance look. Was we not at war in cataclysm? Well I guess this was used as an excuse on why the alliance did nothing of note in cata, but really ever since vanilla all the way through to th current time line the alliance has been attacked.

and I am fine with that, but we never respond, the horde get away with it, the horde then often get our help for some reason and the alliance are "lawful stupid" who loose entire parts of their organization to go neutral and help the horde that has beaten them senseless and the alliance never seem to just fight the horde, we always wait for the horde to throw the first and often crippling blow.

After all the events of warcraft the alliance should be killing on sight and sure as hell not helping Thrall get his throne back. But hey we help Thrall become warchief so let us all "fist pump" /sarcasm

had my fingers crossed for a seige, a proper stand up slugging match and because you're in a scinario rather than the world itself you can go a bit wild with that. You could have massed NPCs fighting one another, gryphons flying overhead, dueling with Manticore riders (They are Manticores...not Wyverns..) even an apperance from Garrosh leading the charge once the gates are breached. Not by you but by artillery or sappers.

Then there would be fighting in the streets between the alliance NPCs, Horde NPCs and players with the Alliance being pushed back to Jainas tower. Thanks to some magical trickery she takes her tower away with as many people as can fit in it, the spell creating a huge blast that destroys much of whats left of the town and kills hundreds of horde NPCs in a final defiant great big middle finger FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU to the Horde. It ends with Garrosh gloating over his victory or possibly ordering the execution of captured prisoners 'as a lesson.'

The Alliance version would be much the same but you're on the defensive, no matter what the Horde are going to destroy the city, there's just not enough there to hold it but dear god you make them pay.
Fighting in the outer trenches against Horde NPCs you face X 'boss' a local Horde commander but when the gates are breached you have to fall back. Then you're on the towers, manning guns firing at Horde troops and vehicles or fighting off air dropped troops and those scailing the walls, but numbers tell and you are then fighting in the streets whilst trying to avoid the rampaging garrosh and his bodyguard. If you engage him you die, that simple.

With the Horde pushing on everywhere you must start to destroy the towns facilities, such as its docks, its forge etc to deny them to any horde occupation troops and then its finding and escorting groups of civilians back to Jainas tower whilst fighting the Horde off.
You are ordered into the tower whilst a desperate group of alliance NPCs sacrifice themself to let Jaina cast her spell and get everyone to safety.
It ends with you reporting the Stormwind and passing the dire news of the fall of Theramore.

Thats what i'd do. Make it EPIC rather than an embarassing wet fart.

Now my boyfriend was wise enough to point out a flaw in the logic of my argument. We do not know that the air attack is not part of a much wider assault. The Horde has little respect for the lives of individual grunts and there could be a massive seige whilst some elite agents IE Us and other folks are dropped in from the rear to carry out demolitions and some wet work. Due to the lack of information from the datamining we are assuming a lot. But still... even with the lack of information given and us assuming its just an air drop it still does give us a thhhrrbhht...of a battle rather than a ROAR.


(copied from http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3660198358?page=7 )

You didn't really get it, did you?
Taurajo was a place where Horde hunters used to learn. It wasn't used for war purposes, and even if it did train troops, it was not the reason why horde consider it a butchery.
Civilians were killed when all hunters of the village were hunting in the barrens. Taurajo could not defend itself.

Silverwind Refuge on the other hand was used for war in WSG and it was havily defended.

Silverwind Refuge has nothing absolutely nothing to do with the Silverwing Sentinels. It was an peaceful settlement that was vanquished by the horde, it's inhabitants mostly slaughtered. And if one village isn't enough for you, how about Hillsbrad Foothills, where we slaughtered two additional towns?
The horde at no point ever held back when it came to slaughtering civilians, it happens all the time without anyone showing any kind of remorse. But as soon as something remotely similar, even if by a rogue faction happens to us it's such a big deal?

Kind of reminds me of terrorists using women and children as shields, then blaming it on the other side if they get hurt, while actively bombing and murdering women and children themselves on purpose.

Taurajo wouldn't have fallen if not for the Alliance being forced to retaliate...considering the humans were only ever in the Barrens in order to offer an additional route of support to the night elven people. Eris sums it up nicely - not to mention as far back as Vanilla we had the forsaken poisoning sleeping druids in Ashenvale, so their claim of only caring for Lordaeron has been false for years.

99% of the time, the Alliance 'atrocities' are direct and ineffective responses to the Horde's own, usually feeling very contrived and out of character to boot.

13/04/2012 06:56Posted by Актемон

Taurajo was a place where Horde hunters used to learn. It wasn't used for war purposes, and even if it did train troops

It did train troops. Hunters, archers, rangers and any class who was a PC.

it was not the reason why horde consider it a butchery.
Civilians were killed when all hunters of the village were hunting in the barrens. Taurajo could not defend itself.

The civilians who died seemed to have been quite proud of picking up weapon and fighting.
And they should be, for their heroic actions.

But they fought and died as combatants.

The Tauren revile the Alliance not for their attack, but for their massacre of every living soul there. And if that massacre had taken place, they'd be justified. But it didn't. The Alliance deliberately created a plan that was intended to ensure as little loss of life as possible, both Horde and Alliance. From all we know, that plan worked well. The Tauren did, after all, escape.

Only to fall easy prey to dangers they should have known about and been easily able to counter give they had wandered the lands for generations.

EJL

Because when the alliance attack a settlement and leave the civilians it's disgusting but when the horde drop a bomb on a base that isn't even a threat it's a big party.

Only to fall easy prey to dangers they should have known about and been easily able to counter give they had wandered the lands for generations.

Guess the Horde should have thought twice about stealing someone's land. We don't go "Why are the trolls so mad at us?", although that's partly because the trolls are--almost without exception--insane and mad at everyone.

Metzen keeps saying various MoP patches will be centered on, or anyway will have, Alliance triumphs and Varian being recognised, or better: re-recognised, as true leader of the Alliance. Perhaps, I hope, this will involve Malfurion as an Ally rather than a neutral leader, as it doesn't make any sense at the moment. But back to topic. Blizzard isn't new to senseless 'lorelols' as they have previously been called, but hopefully it won't totally sh*t on the lore and bring some more balance to the story.