World of Warcraft

Note: this post is cut in parts for better readabillity, and with a TLDR at the end of each part for readers so inclined. At the end are a number of linked references, again for those so inclined.

The Problem:

Many people, be it in-game, on these Forums, or the blogosphere and elsewhere, have issues with the current state of the levelling part of the game and the ‘deadness’ of the world outside the hub-city of the Expansion.

With the removal of a lot of optional content, be it Class Quests, Group Quests, Profession Quests, higher level (Orange/Red) Quests, Attunement/Key Quests, and the introduction of a lot more linearity to the Questing experience, player choice has taken a backseat, and the amount of (meaningful) content let alone replayability has become (much) less for the majority that doesn’t Raid (anymore).

Wonky XP-curves, those curves making it harder to keep Professions in line with levelling speed already yet Noding forcing even more XP on you, and said linearity in the Questing experience, lead to ‘out-Greying’ Zones and making Quest rewards even more trivial than they already are due to the Cata Talent revamp pumping up our toons and the gear handed out in e.g. the revamped tourist-tour Dungeon (-‘quests’) or (pre-80) Honor Vendors.

Once the ‘Expansion jumps’ hit, Quest rewards of previous Expansions at the same levels become even more trivial (with eg Cata BoE Greens available at 77, Icecrown Quest rewards are meaningless for anything but looks).

The result: little point in experiencing the outside world and hence little interaction, lack of content for those who like playing at their own pace and time schedule (the quintessential casual, the ones who made WoW the success it was), and boredom all around as with challenge and real choice gone all that is left is pointless grind. Why bother with it?

And this paradoxically results in requests for even faster levelling (to just get it over with) , which, if handled as incorrectly as before, leads to more issues creating more boredom and hence even more cries for faster levelling etc. – a classic vicious cycle.

Blizzard likes to say they’re a ‘hero factory’ but if there isn’t even the option to do content more fitting to current character strength and hence mobs drop like flies even to normal geared toons, no amount of e.g. cutscenes with Thrall etc. saying you’re his personal saviour and hero of your race in (e.g. Goblin) starter experiences are going to cover up that heroes need challenges to be heroes in the first place.

TLDR:

Removing choice in levelling content leads to boredom and other issues, like (even) less reason to go outside the cities and hence even less interaction between players (including between those of different Factions).

A Solution:

bring the MINIMUM level of all (non-Dungeon) Quests more in line with the levelling speed and power of toons: a drop of seven (7) levels of the current minimum level 8-19 (non-Dungeon) Quests, a drop of six (6) levels of the current minimum level 20 – 60 (non-Outland, non-Dungeon) Quests, and a drop of three (3) levels of the 60+ (Outland and beyond, non-Dungeon) Quests.

(a number of) Benefits:

A) this brings back the concept of Orange/Red Quests, and hence the choice for players to tailor their Questing experience to their wishes.

If someone finds the Yellow stuff too...yellow, he can try his hand at more challenging Quests.

If someone wants to experience a whole Zone without the ‘out-Greying’ issue rearing its ugly head, he can opt to start the entry Quests a few levels earlier and so have a more meaningful experience. Most of those Quests are pretty much breadcrumbs, and this will prevent ‘wasting levels’ on them.

If he wants to level ASAP, he can opt to stick to the Yellow/Green faceroll, or try his hand at Orange/Red Quests that yield more XP on their own .

B) Questing rewards become more meaningful again, promoting Questing and hence going into the open world. This (hopefully) leads to more player-interaction as well.

Because you can start doing Quests sooner, the rewards will hold up better to the other, often (far) more faster gained and more powerful gear, instead of being as trivial as they currently are due to XP-pacing, too high minimum levels, and having to chow down a Zone of linear boredom before you get them (at which point they more often than not have become trivial and hence trying to acquire them pointless).

C) Grouping while Questing/levelling promoted

One of the strangest things about WoW as MMO is that it seems to actively discourage playing together in a virtual world . This would help solving that: with the option to tackle higher-yield Questing content, it becomes more attractive to team-up with people, in order to get more XP/useful Items faster. The option to stick with solo & Yellow Questing is of course still available.

D) better gear-balance in PvP

The Solution would most notably bring less-weak alternatives for Heirlooms for those who actually like playing their non-cap characters, as well as alternatives for the 77+ Cata BoE gear in 75-79 (which can be rather hard to come by for ‘dead’’ servers/factions).

E) the core playerbase of WoW gains more options, hence the game becomes more attractive for them.

As e.g. Blizzard’s Chilton recognizes, the majority of WoW players are or have become casuals in the truest sense: they like to be able to do content at their own pace. Questing has traditionally been the primary content for them, and the solution given would make Questing content more attractive to them again (see References for more on this) and hence the game.

G) Blizzard would be able to show off e.g. the Stonetalon Peaks and Duskwood
content to Trial players.

If we forget about the current challenge issues, these Zones feature some of the most gripping storytelling in low-level WoW. A drop as proposed would allow Trial players to experience them, no doubt enticing more of them to go full account. As others have said, you have to ‘frontload’’ your fun in order to persuade people to buy your game.

Hell, when the dust has settled, Hellscream already even gives a full blown commercial at the end of the Stonetalons Questline,: ‘I need your help in The Barrens as well’. What better moment than this to promote going full subscription?

F) it’s a low-cost/high-yield solution

Dropping minimum levels is relatively easy to do, certainly a lot easier than creating ‘actual’ additonal content.

TLDR:
dropping the minimum level of Quests to match current player-strength and playstyles would be an easy solution for many issues.

Answers to some possible questions:

“Why the layered approach, e.g a seven level drop at 8-19 vs three levels at 60+?”

The reasoning behind the gaps is threefold:
- PvP balancing (a six level drop for Outland would make e.g. the 60 PvP gear immaterial, yet at the same time 75-79 is already being affected by 77+ Cata Boe’s and BoP’s; the lowest level brackets have at the moment the least amount of Quest rewards - and other gear for that matter – that can stand up to Heirlooms yet are the most affected by Heirlooms),
- ability scaling (thanks to the tremendous Talent boost toons get at level 10 & how ability scaling works, it’s paradoxically easier for a level 10-14 to become able to tackle ‘skulls’ than for an e.g. level 60 character)
and
- the XP-pacing (the higher drop is needed to compensate for the faster levelling pace at the lowest levels, in order to combat ‘out-Greying’).

A blanket drop would of course be simpler, but my personal motto is that you can better do something like this well the first time around, and it isn’t that much extra work.

“R u NUTS?!? Dis will lead to twinks! Master Hunter Rifle at level 22 lolololl idjit!’’

The skinny is: no it won’t .

People worried by this are forgetting two things (besides the fact that Cata removed those 13-levels-below-Yellow Quests that yielded things like that gun, and I don’t propose to type of Quests back, either):
I) the gear already available, and how the (non-Dungeon) Quest rewards compare to it now and after the (proposed) change ;
II) times have changed, most notably the introduction of the XP-On/Off split.

Ad I):
the cheap (pre 80) PvP gear, Satchel gear, Dungeon (Quest) gear and especially Heirlooms are currently far better and economical options than Quest rewards, and even after a change like proposed, e.g. Heirlooms would still be the strongest and most economical choice, just (in relative terms) a bit less so.

To give an example, this toon wears almost no (non-Dungeon) Quest rewards, for the simple reason the Quest gear is inferior, despite taking more time/effort to acquire (thanks to Cata’s linear Quest approach). Her belt can currently be acquired at level 21 at the soonest (http://www.wowhead.com/quest=28616 ), the Alliance equivalent at level 22 ( http://www.wowhead.com/quest=26754 ) - yet the Satchel reward belt that is basically its equal (of the Soldier, http://www.wowhead.com/item=51978 ) can be acquired already at level 15!

So if you’re concerned about her belt being there in 15-19, sorry, that kind of gear is already out there (and she could easily wear iLevel 35 Gloves and Neck from the Satchels if I was so inclined)

Ad II)
the twinks that bother people play in the XP-On Battlegrounds.

As already said under ad I, there already is plenty of powerful gear in their mitts – if they wanted to e.g. use that girdle in 15-19, surprise, they already will be. They already are kicking your behind with Heirlooms and such.

This change would basically just give the quintessential casuals more of a fighting chance, as they actually like to Quest and so will do those long Cata chains when Questing becomes challenging and hence interesting again – unlike the griefers who just want to ‘pwn noobs’, who tend to have the patience of a hamster in heat. XP-Gain itself prevents further balance problems (by reducing the mileage of gear).

As for the XP-Off playing Twinks: yes opening more content for low-level toons would most likely be welcomed by them too. The fact that they will invest even more time and effort in their twinks also means there is less chance of them ‘wasting’ a Twink by removing his XP-Lock to play in the XP-On Battlegrounds, only to have it ding.

“You will be missing the whole time, it’s impossible to fight mobs a few levels above you’’

Cata introduced a LOT of Hit Rating gear so it’s easier than ever to improve your Hit chances, and if missing once in a while bothers you too much: do the Quests at a later time

“This will confuse new players”

No, several current designs prevent this from happening to those who don’t understand that the angrier the color of a Quest & the deadlier the mobs, the more difficult the Quest is: Cata’s linear Questing leads you by the hand and so they will follow the hand instead of looking elsewhere where the Orange/Red Quests are, and the recent change of Flight Points automatically opening up at ‘Yellow’ levels will prevent this even more from happening (the logic being that the less smart will simply keep following those Flight Points, instead of ‘wandering from the track’).

‘’There might be individual balance issues’’

Those always exist, and this change won’t make them occur more to any significant degree. Do note that for example TBC Enchants are in Blizzard’s eyes perfectly legit from 25-29 onwards, as evidenced by the Satchel Gloves in that bracket and the recent minimum levels on Chest Enchantments (25 for TBC ones for example)

TLDR:
this Solution is well-thought out.


(some) References

The need to ‘front-load’ fun: e.g. http://www.thatsaterribleidea.com/2009/10/terrible-idea-it-gets-good-at-level-25.html

Quintessential casuals being WoW’s core, and how esp. Cata designs have affected them:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/arts/video-games/star-wars-the-old-republic-vs-world-of-warcraft-online.html?pagewanted=2&_r=3 (Blizzard’s Chilton)

http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2011/10/apologies-dont-improve-games.html

http://thegrumpyelf.blogspot.com/2011/08/casual-misconception.html

http://nilsmmoblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/wow-was-dumbed-down-for-hardcore.html

http://www.mmomeltingpot.com/2011/11/did-cata-actually-make-wow-too-hardcore

http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2011/11/epic-cant-be-repeated.html

SW:ToR having the orginal WoW type of content (Elites, Group Quests, other optional fun content), appealing to the core base of both games and hence creating potential issues for WoW’s subscription base:

http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2011/12/swtor-difficulty-level.html

http://priestwithacause.blogspot.com/2011/12/fair-warning-world-of-star-wars.html

General unhappiness with the Cata levelling experience in other posts as well, listing only a number of recent Forum Threads:

http://flavortextlore.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/failure-challenge-and-the-decline-of-wow

http://battlemedic.blogspot.com/2011/09/on-raiding-disapointment-open-letter-to.html

http://www.thatsaterribleidea.com/2011/11/theres-something-in-water.html

http://thegrumpyelf.blogspot.com/2011/09/leveling-needs-fixing.html

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3061921056?page=1 why nerf questing 4.3?
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3124472535 wtb hardmode questing

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3061869279 levelling is boring
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3061861147 levelling way too fast
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2868713426 remove level requirements from quests

I'd LOVE this (as would my friends).

Currently, I could solo-level my Professions by combatting (level 30-32) mobs in the Hinterlands (MM Hunters are that unbalancedly OP) with this new character on a new (PvP no less) realm (and did everything else 100% solo, too) - yet the game doesn't allow me to slay level 15 Mobs as part of of the Quest-chain in e.g Silverpine, I hit a wall of White (if any to begin with) Exclamation marks.

So much for being Sylvanas' personal hero I guess.

This is no fun, at all.

Stop treating people like children (love that expression from the linked piece by EJ & WoWhead (http://flavortextlore.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/failure-challenge-and-the-decline-of-wow), give them back choices.

A approve of this!

WONDERFUL idea !

This would create truly optional Group Quests, balance out gear, allow you to tailor your levelling XP to your wishes more, and stop making Questing often such a drag.

Two thumbs and two bigtoes up !

All in favor.

Besides solving a bunch of PvP issues, it would also, as stated, allow people to tailor their levelling speed-challenge level much better.

24/12/2011 03:39Posted by Bova

bring the MINIMUM level of all (non-Dungeon) Quests more in line with the levelling speed and power of toons

Another enthusiastic vote in favour. Actually, I don't think levels are too badly aligned for soloing newbs at the moment. But not everyone is a newb, and your points about allowing people to tailor their challenge or to level in groups are compelling.

To further avoid newb confusion, you could have an option switch, a bit like "low-level quests" on the minimap, so you opt in to seeing "high-level quests" that are say more than 3 levels above you, and make it more obvious the level/type of quest you were being offered by an NPC.

I'd also reduce the level restrictions on profession progression. It's annoying enough to have to wait for say 65th level to progress your gathering profession at the moment. It would be worse if you were "red questing" in areas where you couldn't gather anything as you weren't allowed get the required profession level.

11/01/2012 11:25Posted by Rukmara

bring the MINIMUM level of all (non-Dungeon) Quests more in line with the levelling speed and power of toons

Another enthusiastic vote in favour. Actually, I don't think levels are too badly aligned for soloing newbs at the moment. But not everyone is a newb, and your points about allowing people to tailor their challenge or to level in groups are compelling.

Thank you.

To further avoid newb confusion, you could have an option switch, a bit like "low-level quests" on the minimap, so you opt in to seeing "high-level quests" that are say more than 3 levels above you, and make it more obvious the level/type of quest you were being offered by an NPC.

Such an extra feature would be nice, though of course would involve more work for Blizz.

I'd also reduce the level restrictions on profession progression. It's annoying enough to have to wait for say 65th level to progress your gathering profession at the moment. It would be worse if you were "red questing" in areas where you couldn't gather anything as you weren't allowed get the required profession level.

I'm on the fence about this, as currently IMO the issue is more that of gaining too much XP so you can't level your Professions in tune with your levelling as before. Having to go back all the time to horrdily outgreyed zones to level your Profession to the levels of the Zones you are currently questing in, isn't too much fun. I liked it how before you could e.g. Skin the mobs you were engaging for your Quests, and turn them into something usefull for your level.

An interesting Blue post on Questing etc. has appeared on the US Forums, on why levelling is as trivial as it is now etc.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3881721982?page=8

Again, it all boils down to one thing: as a designer, it isn't so much a case of either/or, it's finding ways to please both types of players - and adding more choice to the levelling experience as my idea does, would help a lot in this regard.

(in case someone wonders, I'm getting old toons ready for MoP).

A quote from that blue post made me laugh:

"...we revamped Azeroth for Cataclysm. It can be fun, rich and engaging without taking as much time as it used to. Still, at the end of the day, end game gets so much attention because that's where players spend the majority of their time."

They made levelling faster so people spend less time there, and then gave more attention to the end game, the reason being that's where people spend more time! Surely I'm not the only one to see the funny side. Actually, I'd love to see the stats on the number of man hours spent on L85 raiding and arenas against the number spent on everything else. It seems to me LFR was introduced precisely because people weren't spending enough time in end game content.

Here's another suggestion. Make freezing and unfreezing experience gain free and easy. No more trips to pay some bloke in Stormwind or Ogrimmar. This would at least let you do classic dungeons without boosting yourself out of the range of doing quests, or vice-versa. It wouldn't rebalance the game, but it would make it easier to do the bits you wanted without worrying that you were getting out of the Dungeon Finder range.

A quote from that blue post made me laugh:

"...we revamped Azeroth for Cataclysm. It can be fun, rich and engaging without taking as much time as it used to. Still, at the end of the day, end game gets so much attention because that's where players spend the majority of their time."

They made levelling faster so people spend less time there, and then gave more attention to the end game, the reason being that's where people spend more time! Surely I'm not the only one to see the funny side. Actually, I'd love to see the stats on the number of man hours spent on L85 raiding and arenas against the number spent on everything else. It seems to me LFR was introduced precisely because people weren't spending enough time in end game content.

Blizzard is very inconsistent in general where the levelling experience is concerned.

Ghostcrawler said similar things in a recent watercooler ('screw levelling, end game is all-important'), only to then go on that the Talent system 'MUST' be changed again (as well as the iLevel squash) come Pandaland because they'll keep lobbing extra levels on the the game and hence a new end-game to cater to 'because people love to level' (which is of course counter to 'end-game is all').

As for your question regarding numbers, in general it is said in the blogosphere that of all former and current MMO players only 20% ever saw at least 1 current end-game boss.

The numbers from Blizz themselves are even more sobering:

according to the PvP poll held last year, only about 3% of the PvP'ers participates in Rated BG's (9% in Arena-as-a-whole, including the 'Goblins' and others who make use of the disappearance of Rating requirements and so 'play' the system to cap their points ASAP), and Zarhym used the number of only 2% (!) of the player-base being current-Tier Raiders

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3657613297?page=17#324

Of course, the Dev team has always been affiliated with those groups (the term 'wellfare Epic' was coined first by Blizzard itself for example) , so just as with the Horde favoritism as far as Lore-detail is concerned, this might be of influence as well.

Here's another suggestion. Make freezing and unfreezing experience gain free and easy. No more trips to pay some bloke in Stormwind or Ogrimmar. This would at least let you do classic dungeons without boosting yourself out of the range of doing quests, or vice-versa. It wouldn't rebalance the game, but it would make it easier to do the bits you wanted without worrying that you were getting out of the Dungeon Finder range.

Divided on this, as it might confuse people and some sort of barrier to twinking is healthy imo.

And in general, like you say, stopping XP alltogether is a rather stop-gap and crude way to handle problems, and it of course doesn't help one bit with the lack of optional challenge (frustrating as it is, with Bova I've killed pretty much everything in the Arathi's but pick up the Myzrael Quest...nope, can't do it, I might get hurt or something. WoWhead is wrong again in this regard btw)

Strongly in favor.

It's mighty annoying I can plow through the Furbolgs in Felwood like there's no tomorrow, even queue up to Tank Scholo and Strath by LFG (and have done so without a hitch) - yet can't do the associated Quests 'because the mobs are too dangerous' or something.

Like the OP stated, the mechanisms in place will already prevent the non-explorer types amongst newcomers to wander into trouble this way. The 'explorer' types that might 'bite off too much' 'will see it as a challenge and be intrigued.

The only issue that I can see is the one of Quest rewards affecting classes differently around level 40: Hunters and Shamans won't be affected by taking the Leather pieces 'meant for' Rogues and Druids, but Strength Plate types may have more issues as they can't 'downgrade'
(an issue I just made a topic about).

Still, more Questing options would certainly make for a better and more attractive to more types of players sort of game, without (comparatiovely speaking) much implementation work.

Bova you just spoken more words then all Taurens did in the time between learning the way of the druids and trusting the sun to guide us towards paladins.

Good idea never the less eventhough my eyes hurts and my tongue already bleeds by reading it out loud.It is such a shame people are fined 20+ gold to experience the Ashara,Silverpine and Northen barrens quests in one go without killing grey mobs.

On the other side locking xp for bisgear and a handfull of enchanted heirlooms lets you solo what the random dungeon tool provides.

Gloating over ones stats is half the fun i am sure,and i respect the "ironman" movement of people leveling in white gear without talents but they all miss out heavy on the gear/stat gloating moments wich i happen to cherish.

Bova you just spoken more words then all Taurens did in the time between learning the way of the druids and trusting the sun to guide us towards paladins.

Thanks, it's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it.

I just wanted to cover all the possible angles, but I'll edit it a bit.

Good idea never the less eventhough my eyes hurts and my tongue already bleeds by reading it out loud.It is such a shame people are fined 20+ gold to experience the Ashara,Silverpine and Northen barrens quests in one go without killing grey mobs.

Thank you for the vote of confidence.

The only issue that I can see is the one of Quest rewards affecting classes differently around level 40: Hunters and Shamans won't be affected by taking the Leather pieces 'meant for' Rogues and Druids, but Strength Plate types may have more issues as they can't 'downgrade'
(an issue I just made a topic about).

That be http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3269669430

There's a Thread on the Raids & Dungeons section that asks for dropping the minimum entry level (by World) for Instances as well

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2418222485

Bringing non-Instance Quests levels in line with characters, and otherwise allowing more people to tackle more content seems like a good plan to span the time till the next Expansion.

Very well written post and I wholeheartedly agree with this suggestion.

I really don't see any reason why Blizzard feel the need to keep putting such high level requirements on everything, instead of leaving the choice of challenge in the players' hands.

It's also very disappointing to keep seeing blue posts that say "all constructive posts are read and considered", and yet it's quite obvious this one has been ignored as it hasn't been implemented or even responded to in over a month since it was originally posted. The same thing has happened with my thread about instance level requirements which Muile just linked to.

Very well written post and I wholeheartedly agree with this suggestion.

Thank you, I've left my support for your Thread as well (no suprise I wholeheartedly agree with you as well, though of course the current 'assured Drop' Instance Quests should NOT be lowered in level, as, for starters, this would remove part of the point of lowering the World Quests in level/making their more rewards relevant).

I really don't see any reason why Blizzard feel the need to keep putting such high level requirements on everything, instead of leaving the choice of challenge in the players' hands.

Except for quite possibly being overly controlling, I don't see a reason that actually strikes home, either.

It's also very disappointing to keep seeing blue posts that say "all constructive posts are read and considered", and yet it's quite obvious this one has been ignored as it hasn't been implemented or even responded to in over a month since it was originally posted. The same thing has happened with my thread about instance level requirements which Muile just linked to.

Yes, it is, and the ways of 'Blue Ink' can be disappointing, indeed.

Still, ol' Vaneras seems to like the so-called Ironman Challenge enough to post http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3269547347 so perhaps at least some of the EU CM's like the idea of allowing players to being able to tailor their game experiences more to their own desires.