Community? Not in WoW.

90 Human Priest
10220
11/01/2012 14:01Posted by Takralus
Unfortunately, that opinion is very subjective. The continued popularity of the cross-realm LFD tool, and now the LFR, indicates that a great number of players are just fine with using it for quicker access, rather than attempting to group up with people on the same realm.


I would not go so far as to state, let alone assume, that people are fine with it just because they use it. Neither would i assume that "quicker access" is the main selling point for most participants. For alot of people, there is no real alternative to getting certain rewards, Valor, for example. Good luck getting far there without a raiding guild if you decide to boycott the LFD/LFR systems.

The main negative point for the system in my eyes is not even brought up. The death of the "World". People dont venture outside of major cities in any great extent other than to farm materials or be the designated summoner for a raid. Pre-wotlk, the world was alive with people. The act of forcing a player to move to the instance they want to join does not prevent "que-like" systems(the stones, remember?). Try visting, say, The Burning Steppes and tell me if its a place where you can find someone in its designated level range. You cant, because Blizzard had become like Apple. Who with each new ipod/iphone killed off its previous products. This lesson has been adopted by the WoW devs, who, in their neverending hunt for band-aids to the underlying major issues, will accept any casualty aslong as it gets them out of losing more than x% of subscribers.

Even leveling with these new systems, or the use of heirlooms, will make you "out-of-sync" with quest progression pre-80. Try making a worgen with all looms and tell me what the color of the quests are after an hour. Band-aids. Implementing a proper daoc /level system would be much better, and wouldnt prevent people from experiencing the content the first time. But i am offtopic. This is not easy to fix, but we are many who feels that the devs arent even trying. Alot of us has offered to help, pro-bono. What do we get? Auto-replies.

11/01/2012 14:01Posted by Takralus
Also, implying that every group in LFD/LFR is filled with people you'd gladly never group up with again is exaggerating the actual situation. There are many of us who use the tools a lot, and rarely experience this.


In my personal opinion, the overabundance of players that make my skin crawl make me shy away from que-ing without a majority of guildees/friends. It's not simply poorly skilled players(we were all once) but almost always bad attitude and insults flying if someone is not 100% satisfied. Report them, you're told. But in the end, they just part of the endless list of faceless randoms, so why bother?

But the door swings both ways here, positive experiences have no way of leading to permanent ties. This could potentially be adressed by battletags.

11/01/2012 14:01Posted by Takralus
Having said all that, the future BattleTag system will go a long way to improving the ability to build and maintain cross-realm friendships, eliminating the need to fill groups with as many 'randoms'.


This reminds me of Peter Molyneux hypes. There is no need to not be realistic about the system or secretive, about why it is implemented. It is not designed for WoW, and will, like the Two-Toed Sandals, work fine but never quite fit.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Rogue
7730
Yeah i miss pre LFD to :(

Really like the same server queue option.
Should deffo be implemented.


It's not going to happen, because WoW's devs have always looked at the game as numbers and statistics. Higher numbers usually means better. If more people play battlegrounds, that means cross-realm battlegrounds were a success. If more people play LFR, that means that was a success too. Which seems logical enough, until you start to consider quality, which has nothing to do with numbers.

There's a reason that Blizzard still keeps their new zergfest implementation of Alterac Valley, even though the older versions were far superior in (almost) every way - numbers. Blizzard sees that since AV now finishes in 10 minutes rather than two hours, more AVs can be won and lost, which means more people get into them, which means... success! Or does it? The actual AV experience is but a shadow of its former self. Is that still a success?

Unfortunately, that's exactly what drives the developers - higher numbers. Shorter BGs, shorter dungeons means more dungeons/BGs played. Absurdly high ilevel inflation means absurdly high damage and health inflation so people can feel "they improve their character". It's all quantity over quality because all Blizzard looks at are statistics.
Reply Quote
Community
I find it immensely sad and more than a little ridiculous that you guys can't even admit that there is even the slightest downside to any of your cross-realm implementations. You're doing exactly what Caydiem used to do that drove me crazy back in her days - suggesting that we're wrong in feeling the way we are, rather than acknowledging that it is an actual downside to a system you're otherwise happy with.

Seriously, give us some credit here. We don't need to be told why we should like a system when some of us obviously don't.


On the contrary, I never said it's the perfect system, I was simply offering a different point of view. We're always looking for feedback and ways to improve our features. Player feedback regarding dungeon groups and long wait-times contributed to the development of the dungeon finder tool in the first place. Now, in response to new feedback, BattleTags will address some of the issues players currently face when meeting potential friends on different realms :)
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Warrior
0
You know, I used to believe people saying guilds were the basis of community. Then guild levels came out and the biggest guilds on every server now are some variety of "Free Perks" or otherwise in name.
Reply Quote
90 Human Warrior
19440
11/01/2012 14:01Posted by Takralus
Unfortunately, that opinion is very subjective.


How can this opinion be subjective?

Mr Stark is talking about meeting people in dungeons and simply in an open world and forging the friendships that led to making own guilds that lasted for years.

That's how I met one of my old friends in a dungeon, who opened the world of raiding to me. Long before the dungeon finder thing was invented, I joined a group for a dungeon run - through talking in LookingForGroup channel. Nearly the end of the instance the paladin healer we had have whispered me about how he liked my tanking [which was mostly thoughtful back then, with crowd control, markings and careful pulls], and I answered that I'm simply doing my job, the whole group is playing great and thanked him. We talked a bit, he was a kind, smart, decent person, and we grouped together to do more from time to time; shortly after that we added eachother into freind lists. After a while he told me that he was in a raiding guild, while I knew little about the raiding itself. And so, he began to explain to me what kind of thing it is.

He formed a raid, just two of us, and took me to the cleared raid dungeon, which he completed with his guild. He held my hand to every boss room and explained every fight there to me. He told me about the addons I can use to improve my tanking and overall gameplay, or simply those that were needed to be effective in a raid environment. Later, after some time, I made my first guild application, joined his guild and did my first raid.

Can such chain of events and consequences happen in this world today? No. No new people who come to the game and have a large potential in themselves will ever open it. Making friends, learning the game step by step, learning the basics of guild and communication decency, leading to the ability of participating in a raid consisting the great, kind, smart and simply good people who you can be friends with outside of the game in a nearest future. Who will make your experience and adventures in this amazing world to be remembered for years to come. Looking for dungeon & looking for raid tools have killed any chance for them to have this.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
12975

Also, implying that every group in LFD/LFR is filled with people you'd gladly never group up with again is exaggerating the actual situation. There are many of us who use the tools a lot, and rarely experience this.

I have to say that in most LFR runs, there's usually a person or more I'd rather avoid in the future, but it's very rarely to the point that I'll do more than mentally roll my eyes and it's only been bad enough to make me put someone on ignore once.
On the other hand, it's not very common that I don't see a single person misbehaving and everyone acting nicely, but it does happen. And even if a run is not perfect, I just don't really let it bother me. I might grumble about it, but it's usually because I like distracting guildies with the tales of comical mishaps to entertain them.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Rogue
7730
11/01/2012 15:09Posted by Takralus
On the contrary, I never said it's the perfect system, I was simply offering a different point of view. We're always looking for feedback and ways to improve our features. Player feedback regarding dungeon groups and long wait-times contributed to the development of the dungeon finder tool in the first place. Now, in response to new feedback, BattleTags will address some of the issues players currently face when meeting potential friends on different realms :)


I agree, you never said it was the perfect system, and I'm sorry if I implied that you did.

But some humility from Blizzard's end about your decisions would be nice. There are a lot of things that have gone lost from WoW that a lot of us used to enjoy, yet when we bring them up, we either get told how awesome the new system is because of the numbers, or how we're "wearing our rose-colored goggles", which is plain silly. Or, we get told to wait and see what happens in the next expansion.

The bottom line is that the OP is right. Cross-realm everything might have had a lot of positives, but it definitely had some downsides as well. Some acknowledgement of this from Blizzard's end would be great, instead of just hearing how awesome it is that such huge numbers of dungeons are being run every day.
Reply Quote
85 Orc Warlock
0
11/01/2012 14:01Posted by Takralus
Unfortunately, that opinion is very subjective.
Because your realm transfer service suck, because you don't even dare to listen about the WHOLE DEAD SERVER ? Because this is what you really want.....
Reply Quote
90 Human Priest
10220
We should all remember to not take things out on the poor cms/mods. It's hard to address legitimate concerns by singling out specific posts to make vague semantic points about implications.
Reply Quote
Oh you.
Reply Quote
85 Worgen Warlock
0
Unfortunately, that opinion is very subjective. The continued popularity of the cross-realm LFD tool, and now the LFR, indicates that a great number of players are just fine with using it for quicker access, rather than attempting to group up with people on the same realm.

Also, implying that every group in LFD/LFR is filled with people you'd gladly never group up with again is exaggerating the actual situation. There are many of us who use the tools a lot, and rarely experience this.


I don't think this statement reflects the issue.

It's not that the LFR/LFD isn't useful, because it's nice to just log in and do a raid/instance/bg with a minimal amount of waiting time. I like that and I use it. The problem is that it killed a sense of community the game used to have. Now is just log in, join the LFR/LFD, log out.

There’s no interaction.

I remeber meeting a lot of players during vanilla and tbc when looking for ppl to do instances. Those ppl became friends because we were always grouping together. Whenever we wanted to do an instance we had a few ppl who we would always ask. I used to know who the players on my realm were.

I even remeber bgs in vanilla where we knew who the other side players were - and who we had to kill first. That gave an amazing sense of community: we knew each other and we knew the "enemy" - ofc the waiting time was longer.

Nowadays you just do what you have to do and it is over. It's a lot more practical, but there is no interaction, no talk. And that is one of the things I miss the most about wow.

So yes, I totally agree with this post.
Reply Quote
You know, I used to believe people saying guilds were the basis of community. Then guild levels came out and the biggest guilds on every server now are some variety of "Free Perks" or otherwise in name.


I accept this point unfortunately
Reply Quote
MVP - WoW, StarCraft II
85 Worgen Druid
0
11/01/2012 15:10Posted by Yunaris
You know, I used to believe people saying guilds were the basis of community. Then guild levels came out and the biggest guilds on every server now are some variety of "Free Perks" or otherwise in name.


To an extent, I see what you are saying here, and you do indeed have a very good point. I do, however, believe that this depends more on how the guild is managed than anything else.

Yes, you'll get those that will come along and join a guild only for their perks, but the "community" feeling in a guild also depends on how well it is managed. I believe that if guilds regularly organize internal fun events or raids amongst each other, they'll get to know each other better, nurture friendships, and even develop their own "culture".

Usually ordinary guild members don't really see the need to do that, so it is important for the guild's leadership to encourage these activities or organize them themselves. This will help create a great community within the guild itself, regardless of their perks, and may encourage good elements to join the guild (or apply to join) as well.
Edited by Danellos on 11/01/2012 15:35 GMT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
12205
11/01/2012 15:10Posted by Geriald
Unfortunately, that opinion is very subjective.
How can this opinion be subjective?

Because that's what opinions are.

An opinion cannot be objective, no matter what people think.
An opinion can be shared between a lot of people.
But it can NEVER be anything but subjective.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Priest
15920
-1 @ OP

If you're nostalgic about the older days, you can always go on /2 and spend 2 hours filling a group then queuing for LFR or LFD.

If your statement would be true, then you'd get that group filled up in 5 minutes using your *cough* friend list. But it's not.

Except while asking on /2 you're competing with the automated tools provided now. Before their implementation you were not.


So that means that people LIKE the automated tools. blue posts 1 - op 0
Reply Quote
85 Human Mage
6520
11/01/2012 00:00Posted by Krisandra
You're not wrong, but at the same time, there are some points which aren't entirely correct. Quel'thalas still has a lot of people who everyone 'knows', but at the same time not as many as before. And there are a lot of randomers who aren't really known. I agree, this is due to cross server but frankly I support cross realm. If you recall correctly, battleground wait times were horrificly lengthy. Finding a group for a dungeon was horribly hard if you weren't known.

I do remember the long wait times - horrible. Getting a tank for Hall of Reflection on hard mode ? Impossible. Cross server LFD tool can work but needs a bit redesigning.

- Give us an option to only search server wise.
- Give us an option to write a comment, 'Only mature players; bla bla bla'
- As I have pointed out tons of times - remove the teleport in and out. It does force people to communicate if you have to run to the instance (meeting stones).
Edited by Juliana on 11/01/2012 15:39 GMT
Reply Quote
To an extent, I see what you are saying here, and you do indeed have a very good point. I do, however, believe that this depends more on how the guild is managed than anything else.

Yes, you'll get those that will come along and join a guild only for their perks, but the "community" feeling in a guild also depends on how well it is managed. I believe that if guilds regularly organize internal fun events or raids amongst each other, they'll get to know each other better, nurture friendships, and even develop their own "culture".

Usually ordinary guild members don't really see the need to do that, so it is important for the guild's leadership to encourage these activities or organize them themselves.


I agree....the best guilds are the better managed ones.

But Blizzard tried to foster and encourage guild growth by offering perks and tools like the Guid Finder. And what happened here is the same as what happens everywhere when large numbers of people get involved in anything...guilds grew and grew and started becoming more and more impersonal.

Just the same as the game got impersonal as it grew, and more and more people started playing it I guess.

But I still would stick to my argument that they do form the basis of the "community" as I understand the term. you just need to keep looking.

And I agree that Guild Masters and Officers play an important role in encouraging guild activites involving members. probably more so now that ever, where you may join a guild consisting of 200 or 300 members :)

Reply Quote
90 Undead Priest
15920
11/01/2012 15:29Posted by Darkvulture
I remeber meeting a lot of players during vanilla and tbc when looking for ppl to do instances. Those ppl became friends because we were always grouping together. Whenever we wanted to do an instance we had a few ppl who we would always ask. I used to know who the players on my realm were.


Who's stopping you to do the same these days?

"Competing with automated tools" is not a valid argument. If there would be so many like-minded individuals, you wouldn't have an issue filling your friend list fast.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]