Topic
rating your ability based on meters
|
After seeing a lot of complaint threads I thought I would begin a discussion on how we end up with these numbers in recount.
Raid composition is a big part of this. Consider a paladin + disc priest healing team in low damage situations. The result would almost certainly be in the priests favor as he can effectively prevent all damage resulting in a very bored paladin and heavily biased healing done figures. The key point here is not that said paladin didn't do enough healing but rather the priest negated the need for any extra heals in the first place (healing requires a loss of hit points) Another good example is paladin + druid healing teams where the paladin can completely heal a player in a single cast causing any hots left on the target to be wasted. The druid loses out on both the mana used and the hps. I have begun to think of this as basically nocking another healers spells completely off the board and it generally stems down to "getting in there first". If you are on top of a healing meter don't just assume you are carrying the other healer(s) when in reality if your hps dropped theirs would probably increase. This is part of the reason we paladins are in the firing line atm. As haste stackers our large, fast heals aren't healing for more because they are more powerful but rather they are connecting first and negating other peoples heals from reaching full potential. |
|
Total healing is more reliable if you need to rate an healer (just imho), just because your spells are healing your targets more then they need doesn't mean you're not healing at all. The real issues comes if you run out of mana too easily, if i go oom while my hps is low im just sucking at it :P
|
|
Total healing far outweighs HPS just as total dmg far outweighs DPS. Good players can get both, bad players may get very good hps/dps but cannot sustain it and therefor econtribute less to the final result which is surviving and killing a boss.
Meter reading for healers is especially silly given the number of factors that influence it. Healing mechanics interfere with each other, overhealing is not considered great but is unavoidable for druids for example and mitigation isn't included. This is why Resto Druids feel hard done by because despite the competent player realising that HPS means sod all....we still got nerfed to keep the cry-babies happy because they couldn't top the meters without any of the sensible arguements of no mitigation, no absorbs and nothing else to offer BUT healing throughput being totally ignored. Heal Per Mana is also much more viable way of measuring healing competency and I wish they would put this into Recount to slap the face of whiny kids when they act up ;) |
|
Meter reading for healers is especially silly given the number of factors that influence it. Healing mechanics interfere with each other, overhealing is not considered great but is unavoidable for druids for example and mitigation isn't included. Exactly. Total healing can serve as an indicator of someone "slacking", if you know their healing outputs from previous attempts at the same content with a similar context. It can also indicate bad or good synergy between your healers, whether you have one healer too many, or your healers are struggling to gear / skill / numberwise keep up with the challenge. HPS can only be of value if looking at it's curve over a fight, and then not looking at the number but at the incline when it spikes. Did this healer react to bursts fast enough, did they ignore them if they weren't assigned to them, when did they bring their CDs to bear? Meter reading is already very silly for Damage specs, too many factors influence the outcome, and modern fights are too far from Patchwerk to make the number you get representative of the actual gameplay skill or class power you are looking at. For Healers it's just ludicrous. There's soooooooooooo many variables influencing HPS, and it represents such a hodgepodge of data, you might as well try to tell their shoesize from their HPS, just as realistic as telling their "total worth / skill" from it. |
|
Good points in this thread! I have 3 healers, this pala, a disc priest and my main, a resto Druid. I know for a fact that of those three my skills and gear is the best on my Druid. She's in a raid team with a priest and a pala, and the hps varies hugely among us from fight to fight. Not because of anyone slacking, but due to the fact that some fights have enough long term, raid wide damage for my hots to actually take full effect, while they get annulled by pala heals in other fights and thus tick away happily at healthy targets.
Unfortunateky, some players seem to ignore the fact that avoiding overhealing is pretty difficult on a hot defendant class, and that hps is just !@#$e when it comes to evaluating a healers performance. Fortunately, I mainly meet this attitude in pugs or LFRs! |
|
Edited by Halaberiel on 10/02/12 04:45 (UTC)
Your final point is total crap I'm sorry. Paladin sustained HPS is far beyond any other class. I mean I can take a direct comparison to priests. Their main AOE heal - PoH - is a direct heal & has a large amount of absorption to boot. Going by your absorption comment, this would lead you to believe priests would be top HPS on fights such as Ultraxion. Is this anywhere near the case?
Please, you're saying Paladin healing isn't overpowered, it's just faster & more direct. So why is priest AoE healing on WoL so much lower? Why is shaman healing so much lower? Why are holy priests so much lower? At the end of the day this isn't even the biggest issue. The issue is the fact paladins are not only the best raid healers now but they are also arguably the best tank healers too. They're versatile & can switch between roles at any point in a fight. Something no other class can do with such effect. |
|
Disc priests, and arguably resto shamans > holy palas on tank healing, unless it's a 2-tank fight where both tanks are taking damage. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending paladins - just felt like I should point that out. |
|
I personally do not think that Holy Paladins are overpowered. I think the problem is with the actual fights.
Every single fight in Dragon Soul has phases where we all stack up and Holy Radiance shines. All 8 bosses. That isn't a problem with Paladins, that's a problem with the fight design. The only kinda way that I can see them being OP is with the fact that Holy Radiance doesn't have a target cap. Yes it does suffer DR from people past 6, however it still heals all those people. Getting 10 or 25 people all stacked up and it is going to do a lot. The problem is when they make a raid whereby all 8 fights benefit largely from 1 spell. They are going to seem extremely strong/overpowered. I don't like the fact that for us it is a 1 button to win, however realistically when they are made like that what else can we do? Realistically I wouldn't expect any changes to happen before Mists, however I hope to god they design the fights in Mists much better. Another good example is paladin + druid healing teams where the paladin can completely heal a player in a single cast causing any hots left on the target to be wasted. The druid loses out on both the mana used and the hps. HoTs can be tracked on all Raid Frames. If a Paladin is trying to top people who are on 90% if they have HoTs running, then yes they are doing it wrong. At that point they are not contributing well, as it was already covered and they have just wasted their own mana and the druids. |
|
From a 25 perspective;
Thing is, you can (or should) skip putting Paladins on tankhealing (as you mention, usually only 1 tank will take dmg at the time, and Disc/Shaman will do better on that 1 target), put Paladins on raid, and they will still do a good amount of healing on the tank through beacon - for free. And that is while healing the raid with the highest hps avaliable atm, maybe even the most sustainable highest hps aswell. It is over the top, and something's got to go. Even if we take into account every raid/tank CD out there, it still is. I think you can atleast estimate the value of everything above raw hps, and make some conclusions. |
|
|
My point behind this was basically that meters dont give an accurate reading of player performance whether you are looking at healing done or HPS.
Something i forgot to mention earlier is that healing can be quite predictive in these fights as well and i will often begin channeling just before the group gets hit. For me personally this makes a huge difference on meters and emphasises what i said about "getting in there first". When talking about "sustained hps" you need to bear in mind that there are a fair few occasions in these DS fights where there is enough down time to utilise a good mana regen ability (divine plea for holy palas). Spine of deathwing for example, these abilities can be used between every platform and in similar situations throughout every fight. This makes a huge difference when there is no fear of someone dieing. Didnt want this to turn into another thread bashing holy paladins but i guess thats when happens when things are read out of context Halaberiel - "Consider a paladin + disc priest healing team in low damage situations" LOW DAMAGE SITUATIONS My final point was "This is part of the reason we paladins are in the firing line atm" PART OF THE REASON In fact i have stated all of these points as contributing factors rather than outright reasons so please try to read this a bit more objectively. Holy Radiance may well be over powered in the situation where everyone is stacked however i dont know the other classes well enough to conclusively claim that it is or isnt. I have not denied that. But spread everyone out and its not going to help. Fact is a lot of these fights have done away with the utility that some other classes bring to the table and they now simply favor the whole "stand still and heal" approach which is something that paladins have always been stronger at. |
|
|
In my view both of those class are not far enough ahead of Holy pallies to justify how good pallies are in terms of AoE heals....but druids are the bottom of the pile at single target healing and therefore it bites having had nerfs to the only thing we were good at. Basically Blizz made druids competitive on raid healing and overall healing numbers to other healers (except shammies who are still a way behind on most fights) and I don't have a problem with that, but they gave us nothing in return to make up for the fact that we don't have any mitigation built in to our healing like every other healing class does.
Works in theory but then again so does communism :) In practice what happens is most healer will not risk a second hit causign issues and therefore will top off anyway since mana is just no longer an issue as we were led to believe it would be. Essentially good players know this but there's no need to worry about it because Blizz couldn't leave healing too hard to manage and opted to let the numbnut players have their spam tactics back. |
Every single fight had the same stacking in 4.2 and every single healing spec benefits from stacking up ( healing rain, chain heal, efflo, sanctuary) |
|
|
Yeah sure there were phases this happened in 4.2, however in 4.2 Holy Radiance was different and was actually pretty weak. Holy Radiance has been changed, and the change was good, however there is now far more stacking up and AoE healing taking place. During 4.2 there was some stacking up, but not as much as what is happening now. |
|
|
This is not true. It was very strong as a burst AoE. Paladins did exceptionally good in FL aswell, especially in AoE, how to explain that if you say the old HR was weak? It had a too long CD, I can agree on that... Weak? Hell no. |
I don't think you understand Firelands fights so i'll draw a picture for you For most of his encounter Ryolith stomped every 20 seconds. The melee chased the legs, the ranged didn't. Shannox has no aoe on hc with the exception of a Spear throw that does no damage. Again the raid was spread Alysrazor has no aoe except for the 50 energy-100, explode moments. Raid grouped Beth'tilac favored druids so much it wasn't funny.Raid Half/Half for half the fight. Baleroc has no aoe. You need to be spread anyway Majordomo Staghelm has no aoe on hc. Ragnaros has close to no aoe(trap explosion p1, seeds p2, some dmg @ intermissions, p3 no aoe, p4 some aoe that gets negated by moving in breath).
Druids did expecially good in FL aswell, especially in tank healing, how to explain that if u say the they are weak? They have too long of a cd, I can agree on that...Weak? Hell no. See what i did there? Like WTF ever brought a paladin for aoe healing pre 4.3 Radiance. |
|
Edited by Halaberiel on 10/02/12 19:24 (UTC)
My point behind this was basically that meters dont give an accurate reading of player performance whether you are looking at healing done or HPS. Something all healers do, it's not the reason you to have far larger HPS than everyone else. When talking about "sustained hps" you need to bear in mind that there are a fair few occasions in these DS fights where there is enough down time to utilise a good mana regen ability (divine plea for holy palas). You mean like Hymn of Hope & lightning bolts for shamans? Everyone except druids have spells like that. I wouldn't really call this a "contributing factor" either considering everyone does this. Didnt want this to turn into another thread bashing holy paladins but i guess thats when happens when things are read out of context So you try to create a discussion with Hpala at the forefront then don't expect people to think this is about them? Please... Oh so we're very good in LOW DAMAGE SITUATIONS where healing DOESN'T MATTER. That's AWESOME dude, I'm so glad my full potential is found in situations WHERE MY HEALING DOESN'T MATTER. In fact i have stated all of these points as contributing factors rather than outright reasons so please try to read this a bit more objectively. What do you mean out of context? This entire thread is basically you trying to bring up reasons why paladins aren't overpowered. Now people are pointing out how you're wrong you start saying it was never about that to start with.
2 tank fights in DS: Morchok, Ultraxion, Warmaster, Spine, MDW 2 tank fights where both tanks take damage (and can utilise beacon): Ultraxion, Warmaster, Spine It's true that the only fight with major tank damage is Warmaster P2 & the end of spine though. Maybe MDW too but I didn't try that yet. Beacon is fking OP though as someone else pointed out they can do amazing raid healing & decent tank support healing at the same time through beacon. |
|
|
Edited by Blinkz on 10/02/12 19:46 (UTC)
"Something all healers do, it's not the reason you to have far larger HPS than everyone else."
Not true. inexperienced healers or bad healers dont yet they whine because they dont realise why they cant sustain higher mana regen. That is why i mentioned this. "You mean like Hymn of Hope & lightning bolts for shamans? Everyone except druids have spells like that. I wouldn't really call this a "contributing factor" either considering everyone does this." Again wrong.... Not everyone knows that they can our should do this at these times. "Oh so we're very good in LOW DAMAGE SITUATIONS where healing DOESN'T MATTER. That's AWESOME dude, I'm so glad my full potential is found in situations WHERE MY HEALING DOESN'T MATTER." Simply not what i said at all. Go back and read again... I am trying to justify SOME of the reasons why players are falling short on meters without an understanding why.... And yes paladins doing "too much" causes others to do less no matter how hard they try so as a class they are inevitably tied into this. |
|
Edited by Dawson on 11/02/12 16:50 (UTC)
I don't think you understand Firelands fights so i'll draw a picture for you :DDD So basicly firelands had no aoe. Damn your team must have been pro u even avoid aoe dmg! :)) sorry but i cant take your post seriously |
|
|
Edited by Blinkz on 11/02/12 17:54 (UTC)
Well there is aoe but i think the point hes making is that its all avoidable. When you know the fights through and through and everyone is spread correctly its normally just individuals that get caught out
*nothing that is guaranteed to hit everyone like the ultraxion mechanic |
