Topic War is long overdue
Edited by Viima on 10/02/12 17:35 (GMT)
A real war in Azeroth is long overdue. And I'm not talking about some nonsense Garrosh vs Varian ego clashing that has drawn in other races as well. I'm talking about Thrall being gone, Deathwing being gone, Burning Legion being gone, I'm talking about not needing a united Horde anymore. If Garrosh wants a war with Varian, he can have it on his own. Taurens are quite capable of defending their own land alone, and same goes for the rest. Especially since they've heard that Alliance factions aren't exactly happy about Varian taking them to a pointless war, and are pulling out their support as well.
Storyline aside, what I'm talking about is banishing the current 2-faction division. What is it for anyway?
Lore? Nothing stops Orcs and Humans continuing their war and involving whole bunch of other races in it, whether players are split into two factions or not. In fact, breaking the factions opens a whole lot of new storylines. Primarily involving Forsaken losing all of their 'friends'. Regarding that, I predict a sacking/destruction of Undercity in response/revenge of what's happening in Theramore, sending the surviving Forsaken to set up a new capital further east, say, Andorhal.
PvP? Breaking the two factions each into their own races wouldn't kill PvP. If anything, it would increase it since now you'd be allowed to attack everyone except your own race. In other words, when earlier 50% of players you met were enemies able to attack you, now it'd be over 90%. So again, removing the faction split would only improve the game. Battlegrounds? Simple, if it's orcs vs dwarves like AV, you join which ever side you want to gain reputation with. Unless you're orc/dwarf, then you're stuck with your faction. Naturally, gaining reputation with one faction would reduce it from another, so there's no way you can be friends with both sides. After all, there are multiple wars going on. I can already foresee new battlegrounds where you'd instead have Blood Elves vs Forsaken. Or Worgens vs Humans.
Trade/Chat limits? One main reason for not allowing players talk cross-faction was the verbal abuse after you got killed. Then, years ago, Blizzard allowed creating characters on both sides even on PvP servers, effectively allowing all that verbal abuse to happen. Trade limits? We all know that all the faction balance does to that is huge harm. Been to a server with 95-5 population balance? The economy is complete mess for the smaller faction. Merging auction houses would be huge help.
Removing the faction split would also almost completely remove the issues of so many serves having massive faction imbalance that ruins both PvP and PvE. Allowing you to form raid groups among any races would actually improve the life of everyone. Is it a lore issue if a raid group of humans and dwarves etc is suddenly joined by a lonely orc player? Is it a blasphemy? Then what the heck is Thrall doing there, and nobody's complaining about it. Is Thrall allowed to be friends with both sides but nobody else? Why is he allowed to be friends with Jaina when any other orc going near her will get killed on sight? Is Thrall a traitor to the orc race for being friendly with the enemies? And again, if Thrall is allowed to pick his own friends regardless of race, why are all the players forced to be racist? Yeah, I just used the racist card.
Pandas. Mists of Pandaria is using desperate lore tricks to actually split a group of pandas (all the players) into two factions, after which they magically just forget how to talk to each other. Seriously?! Get rid of Horde and Alliance and pandas can be their own race just like everyone else, they can participate in lore-led wars just like everyone else, and panda players could pick their friends just like everyone else.
I haven't even mentioned the most obvious benefit: real people with real friends. Just recently we were finally allowed to raid together with our friends even if they're on different server. Except if they happen to be playing wrong race. Real people with real friends would like to play together with them. Real people with real friends aren't racist.
So, here's a challenge to all the readers, blue and what color you might have: free your mind and think how the game could evolve without the faction limitation. Would it improve? I'm 100% sure it would, but that's just my view. Would it turn into CarebearCraft? I don't see how, when everyone would be an enemy, and you wouldn't even be able to visit each others' capital cities anymore. Sure, you and your selected friends would gather for a raid from all races alike, but after raid you might meet each other on a battleground on opposing sides. I got some guild mates I wouldn't mind meeting at the Lumber mill...
While I could see the point in splitting the two factions into four, but this is just madness. For starters war in World of Warcraft doesn't necessary mean PvP, take the war of shifting sands, or the molten front. Both those events while being purely PvE based gives me a much better feeling of there actually being a war than PvP ever has.
Depends on definition of a faction. Technically I'm suggesting at the same time splitting players into 13 factions, one for each race, while on the other hand merging them all into one, allowing trading, chatting and raiding together.
As you said, war in WoW doesn't necessarily mean PvP, it's heavily lore driven. Which again leads to my point: it doesn't in any way have to involve having players forced into two groups. At molten front, horde and alliance were working together like best friends for most of the time, with occasional quarrels. I don't see how removing the faction split would change that in anyway, apart from allowing more quarrels to occur between any races.
I reckon this has massive potential. When I first heard about WoW I expected it to be more like this. This would give every faction a reason to go to their cities, increasing the amount of game content which is still breathing. It would also encourage world pvp with the increased number of enemies to your faction.
Another huge benefit for a lot of players like myself is that I would not be spending the majority of my WoW game time doing the same thing in Stormwind City - waiting for dungeon queues, making money via the AH, and last but very much not least, not being alt tabbed all the time!
The game needs a change in my opinion, and I mean a massive one. Without it I dont think it will ever regain that spark it first had a few years ago when it was fresh. Change is required, and in my opinion, this is a solid method of achieving it.
85 Human Paladin
Edited by Shingui on 13/02/12 00:11 (GMT)
and yet you complained about the loreLOL for alliance/horde pandaren not talking to each other?
please, this is madness...
And i will re-iterate a point i made in another thread. There will never ever ever ever be break aways from factions to form a new faction, or to switch sides from alliance/horde, or to try and go it alone. It will never happen..........ever!
Just seriously sit back and think about the sheer amount of logistics and lists of problems with this. The amount of people not being able to play with their friends any more, the amount of people pulled kicking and screaming from their guilds and losing anything they were entitled to in the guild vaults, or feeling like you have been kicked from a guild you may have helped build, or helped to prosper.
Blizzard would be tearing apart something that goes hand-in-hand with warcraft, the horde and alliance. It is the baseline for warcraft, and it has been built upon. there is merchandise in it, peoples jobs are involved in making bloody alliance cups.
I could go on, put it's late and i cba. I'll summarise, The horde and alliance will remain, intact (apart from future additions) in the entirety of WoW's lifespan, and no amount of complaining will change that. Do i want to see a new faction you may be asking? Hell yes i do! but it's impossible and i am being realistic here.
If a WoW 2 ever comes out, you can hold your hopes till then.
Edited by Opalina on 16/02/12 14:17 (GMT)
The game would just get bloated with cities for nations that don't have proper cities yet, let's say Goblins can't jsut live in a load of different cities. Instead I think that there could still be Alliance and Horde but have factions all going into new cities, I think the hated by all Forsaken should become an outcast nation. I'd say the grudges should be:
Gnomes vs Goblins (Battle of The Techies)
Worgen vs Forsaken (They ran them off their land)
Dwarves vs Trolls (Attacking their homelands)
Draenei vs Bloodelves (Already hate eachother)
Night Elves vs Tauren (Elune vs Earthmother)
Humans vs Orcs (They started it!)
In the terms of the Pandaren split up i think that we should just have a new race put in for Horde.
The faction split would actually just plain blow up the lore. Goblins love the Horde for taking them in after an Alliance ship blew them up. Bloodelves hate Alliance for betraying them and trying to imprison them all in a previous game!
Yep think about the social element, friendships would be broken, guilds would fall apart, as you said the global economy is chaotic on servers but splitting everyone up would probably just send half a dozen auctions to pot, money lost, prices rising even more and finally trading nations being destroyed.
The subscribers wouldn't be able ot take it and therefore cancel their subscriptions.
I would completely LOVE this!
Great points raised Viima. Of course Blizzard won't ever do this, but we can dream ey?
I would rather argue they should get split up in smaller alliances though :3
Orcs + Trolls, best fwends forevah
Humans + Dwarves, same as the first.
Night Elves + Tauren, sipping herbal tea
Forsaken + Blood Elves, evil wretches.
Draenei + Worgen because both are retarded.
and Gnomes + Goblins in a bizarre love/hate kind of thing, the techie faction.
And pandas get told to gtfo.
In all seriousness though, I would love your suggestion and I would LOVE to see race-specific politics being treated more serious and actually focussed on rather than going with the trainwreck they are using now: Making every freaking alliance race heads over heels in love with Varian and worshipping him as some kind of retarded superhero. Guh.
Edited by Bipsi on 16/02/12 15:08 (GMT)
Yep it would be great for Nightelves and Tauren being the life lovers they are. As for Goblins and Gnomes I personally think it would be amazing!
I'd love to see the politics advance like this and I'd love to see the Gnomes and Goblins having a war against the Draenei and Worgen!
Edited by Viima on 08/03/12 14:35 (GMT)
People not being able to play with their friends anymore? Nobody said anything like that. My whole point was: let people play with their friends, regardless of faction, regardless of race, even if their factions are at war. People losing their guilds? Again, no, completely opposite. Instead, you could invite any race to your guild. Could you have a guild gathering in Orgrimmar? Not likely, since NPCs would try to beat the crap out of all your non-orc guild mates. It's not exactly that different to you having a cross-faction friend right now, you can talk to them through realID, you can meet them in game, and NPCs of your side will try to kill them. I'm just hoping to extend this cross-faction friendship to trading, raiding and joining guilds with those said friends.
Point being, tearing down the alliance/horde wall and splitting races to 13 factions on levels of lore and NPC behaviour would have almost no ill effect on players. You'd no longer be welcome in most capital cities, that's it. Meanwhile on plus side you'd have merged population in terms of trade, PvP and raiding, practically eliminating the current faction balance problems that plague so many servers.
@Naeya - On lore level, I totally agree on having lots of smaller factions, but Blood Elves and Forsaken? They'd be on my list of most obvious mortal enemies, not friends. But anyway, about the race alliances, they could visit each other's capital cities to enhance the lore. And there's no need to limit it to pairs, if lorewise 1 or 3 makes more sense. Still, it doesn't remove the need to actually have capitals for the last couple races. Nothing huge and elaborate. Just few buildings to cover bank/AH, trainers and vendors. Being newly built capitals, it would only make sense if they're very small, just couple buildings to start with, with NPCs mostly not even having their own buildings. Take a look at goblin section of Orgrimmar for example.
In fact, it would open some truly awesome storylines when former enemies like Tauren and Night Elves would enter a new era of peace and friendship and tree hugging while others are trying to have a war.
Not commenting on how much work it would take to tear down the horde/alliance split in game code, the actual development effort required for this massive change would be something like this:
- Create a capital for Goblins. Easy options would be expanding one of the towns in Azshara, or even Goblins making some business arrangements with each other and making Booty Bay their capital. Or Ratchet. I'd honestly prefer Booty Bay by far.
- Worgen could take back Gilneas. Lower level chars can simply see the current version through phasing. Not the first time we have multiple timelines.
- Trolls & Gnomes already have a capital of sorts, so those will do. Progress them a bit on timeline from where the story was a year ago.
- Blood Elf & Draenei need their capitals cleaned up and flying enabled. Or as I'd prefer, nobody should be flying anywhere, but that's not gonna happen.
- Make sure all capitals have at least one AH, bank, trainers and gear vendors. No need to have multiple AH/bank hubs like current capitals since population is much lower.
- Change NPCs in capital cities: They should be friendly to their own race, at best neutral to other players depending on their faction reputation. But only neutral, so you can't use bank/AH/services in other cities and start living there. So basically, being horde char, you'd have enough reputation to be tolerated in Horde cities. If the game then provided a way to earn and lose reputation with these factions, you could lose your good status with Orgrimmar and maybe eventually be tolerated by Darnassus NPCs. If there was no support, still no harm done. You'd be forced to live in your own capitals and you could be friends with any player you like. And kill almost every player you meet, including earlier allies.
Anyway, as was the point: this level of change is something so massive I don't realistically expect to see anything happen. I do hope, that whatever Blizz is working in secret for the next gen MMO is learning from the mistakes of this one, and avoids flying mounts or anything similar that destroys a feeling of a large game world, and forced faction splits that cause nothing but inevitable balance issues. Keep factions on lore level, but let players work as one group on areas where it's necessary. Trading and raiding most obviously.
Tbh I don't think most of the horde races could leave even if they wanted to because they would be wiped out.
Tauren - They could leave and become neutral easily due to relations with the night elves however they are very respectful people and it would be out of character to leave the orcs due to the help they gave them which they owe themselves too now.
Trolls - If they left the horde they would share the same fate as the rest of the empires, they even gave up old beliefs to be accepted within the horde and only the orcs are the trolls allies really due to undead being ex humans which hate the trolls, the tauren being peaceful and not savage like the trolls and the blood elves + goblins both hating the trolls same as the undead.
Goblin - War makes profit! Too much business competition if they go neutral so going neutral would most likely mean being sold out as slaves to the other cartels.
Undead - Without the horde by their sides the argent crusade would lay waste to them in no time with help from the alliance and the orcs, they know garrosh is using them as worthless beings and trying to prevent them from using the plague to reduce casualties but they still try and stay within the horde, this shows they have no intentions of letting themselves die out due to their lust for revenge.
Blood elfs - Not sure here tbh, after the events of the sunwell I have no idea what their strengths are and who their allies are, the Draenei seem friendly to them without any concequences so maybe they could join the scryers and go neutral or something I don't know.
Anyway this is why I think garrosh isn't having a war on his own, the horde races mostly have no choice but to serve or die and the orcs are the only link to the horde races - without the orcs there would be no horde, only groups of survivors who would be wiped out one by one by the alliance.
Taurens: They've paid their debt, and a stupid orc killing their leader is more than enough of a reason to leave Horde and go neutral. They're rather peaceful race after all.
Trolls: The most likely race to remain allied with orcs due to the long history together. Wouldn't be an issue to keep it that way.
Goblins: War makes profit, and selling weapons to both sides makes lot more profit. Besides, weapon merchants prefer staying out of the war themselves, so them going neutral would be very natural move. Betraying orcs like that would probably mean Azshara wasn't so safe place for them anymore, giving yet another reason for Goblins to team up in Booty Bay. As a race they'd end up in similar situation with Pandaren, being in decent terms with both sides.
Undead: They're the ones needing orc support the most, but it's not them leaving: it's rest of the orcs kicking them out for all the plague and reanimation crap they've been pulling off lately. They'll be lucky if they get away with just that, instead of being invaded by orcs as well. So, undead would be left all alone, threatened by everyone from every direction, driving them to even more desperate actions for their survival. Tons of possibilities there.
Blood Elves: They really have only three groups they hate: undead for destroying their homeland, humans for abandoning them during and after the war, and finally, night elves for old grudges. With high elves back at night elf ranks, there's a lore chance that they could come together with their blood elf cousins as well. Due to their location far far from any humans, they might either go completely neutral to rebuild their homes, or seek revenge against the undead.
Orcs: It's more than obvious that Garrosh has enough honor left to not tolerate what Sylvanas is doing, so kicking the undead out would be first thing to happen. This could spark more incidents among the remaining Horde, sending Taurens and Blood Elves on their way. That then would prompt Goblins to expand their customer base beyond just a greatly diminished Horde, which would anger Garrosh and lead to Goblins becoming neutral, selling their services to whoever pays most.
The split isn't just Horde side though:
Dwarves: They'd stick together with humans, not so much for the love of humans, but the fact that they're constantly struggling against orcs on multiple fronts. Of course, if their internal power struggle ends with one clan taking over, anything can happen. Lot of possibilities here.
Night Elves: Losing ground against Orcs and having massive rebuilding process ahead due to Cataclysm, they could easily negotiate a peace with Orcs, allowing them to get away from war on two fronts and fully focus on humans. This kind of separate peace is of course not acceptable as part of alliance, so they'd be cast out. Being neighbours with Draenei who don't really participate much in Azeroth's nonsense anyway, they stick together though.
Gnomes: Same reason as previous war, they're too busy focusing on Gnomeregan issues to have time for another war elsewhere. They remain in good terms with humans and dwarves, but not really supporting their war effort much.
Draenei: Not really ever a real part of Alliance, so they don't really even need an excuse to leave. If it's more believable, it doesn't take much imagination. Varian being about just as bad as Garrosh, it's not hard to imagine him doing something that annoys Draenei enough for them to leave. They would probably remain in good terms with their neighbors, the Night Elves, though.
Worgen: Busy taking back Gilneas, and as such, need every ally they can get. The question is, who really is helping them? Humans are far far away and barely helping, but if they were to negotiate with Blood Elves or even Orcs about a common campaign against undead, things could change radically better for them. Ultimately, they want their home back along with the surrounding areas and after that they'd just want to be left alone, with no interest in Varian's alliance whatsoever.
So, how could a theoretical World of Warcraft look like after the faction crash?
Orcs + Trolls vs. Humans + Dwarves - it's like going back to old Warcraft days. These two groups would fight against each other in Barrens, Dustwallow Marsh, Arathi, Twilight Highlands, Stranglethorn Vale and maybe even Badlands. The only noticable difference to current situation is that battle fronts against Tauren and Night Elves would be gone, as they withdraw from the war.
Blood Elves + Worgen vs. Undead - the 'weakened' races having their own war, possibly even orcs joining aginst the undead from Arathi/Alterac direction. Lorewise, I'd like to see this war actually progress and finish during the expansion, driving the Undead to a new capital in Northrend, destroying Undercity for good. Silverpine would become Worgen territory, while the power vacuum would be filled with Humans trying to re-populate the area and Orcs determined to not let that happen and leave Arathi all surrounded.