Please don't balance rogue's around preparation again

87 Undead Rogue
5460
I'm not here to complain that cooldowns for cooldowns are over or under powered, but just to say I don't think it's a very good design plan.

It isn't very balanced, it's either too powerful if you chain two spells back to back (such as smoke bomb in the case of rogues) or it's poor if you need to use an ability right now to stay alive, but it only has a few seconds left until it's off cooldown. Because some abilities are able to be used twice, they end with their original potency being nerfed, which means that the ability is now less powerful for all the talent trees except the one with access to preparation.

I know some people are going to complain that for them it's very effective and they don't want it to change. But in my opinion by having spells such as this, for the sake of balance the class has to be weaker in other areas, which means that the one talent tree with that cooldown that refreshes cooldowns, becomes the default pvp choice.

This is only my opinion, which I'm free to express even if you disagree with me, but overall I think that it is a bad design. Rogues have always relied on preparation in pvp and sub has always been the default choice because of this.

In tbc, a vast majority of rogues went sub for pvp. Assassinations wasn't very popular at all, it was more difficult /annoying to play and didn't always pay off enough in the damage it could provide. Sub was very common, as was the "HARP" build before it was rightfully nerfed. "Hemorrhage Adrenalin Rush Preparation" was a combat/sub hybrid which meant that you could perform back to back adrenaline rush/evasion and spam Hemmorhage every second for 30 seconds. This is an example of being over powered due to preparation.

During wotlk, everyone was running around with variations of 41/5/25 so that they could take both preparation an mutilate because the 51 point talent assassinations tree (a clunky and boring active 15% damage boost for 60 seconds with no cooldown and 100% up time) wasn't as useful as preparation and the early sub talents. People rarely speced into sub because the damage simply wasn't as good as what assassinations could offer. Combat did, and still does, lack the control, mobility, and burst (outside of cooldowns) to make it useful in pvp.

Before cataclysm talent trees, a few people occasionally speced into a "coldstep" pvp build, which meant picking up preparation, shadowstep, and cold blood. It wasn't really over powered, especially as you had to give up shadowdance or mutilate, but it was somewhat entertaining to play for change and to be different. It was moderately effective because of preparation resetting cold blood, although crit's weren't that much of a big deal in wotlk because by the end of it everyone scaled poorly and was pvping in pve gear because burst was so high.

The point to all this is just to say, that I really think if rogues have yet another expansion where they are balanced around preparation, they will continue to spec subtlety as a default, which kind of destroys the whole point of creating the option, or rather the illusion, of talent tree choice.

I think that the solution to this problem would be to remove preparation, but in return shorten base some survival cooldowns across the class by perhaps up to 50%, or less desirably double their duration or potency depending on the ability in question. This would prevent rogues from being able to chain certain abilities such as smoke bomb one after another.
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90 Human Rogue
14515
I strongly agree with this. Rogues have been balanced around a single talent for much too long, and it is limiting what the class could be. It feels like an outdated mechanic, like the easy choice, when it would be better overall to come up with a fun choice.

As you've covered the PvP side of this very well, I'll only add a few things about PvE. Preparation has great synergy with DPS, especially for Sub and Assassination. While it is very likely the talent calculator isn't showing much of the changes they've already made, or are working on, it is highly likely things like Find Weakness and Overkill will remain in a similar form in Mists. This turns Preparation into a DPS ability. As it also provides great utility and mobility, compared to almost anything else it will feel like a much better choice. Quite likely like the only choice, which in turn feels like our hand is forced.

Removing Preparation would allow the class to be designed without this handicap mechanic (that is how it feels to me). Our other abilities could be balanced on their own merits, not on the possibility of double use. It would allow more diversity in what talents to take and in general, it would feel more fun.

Preparation also diminishes the perceived value of the abilities affected by it. Using Prep when you still haven't used all the abilities on the list always seems like a waste. Our core mechanics revolve around potential use. We think about Damage per Energy, about timing things and keeping up buffs and debuffs. We don't spam abilities, if it's avoidable, as usually that provides lesser results than a bit of patience. However, with Preparation we get an ability that works counter to the very core of our class. Some might argue about how it gives a meaningful choice, but in reality it doesn't quite feel like that. If you haven't used Sprint, Vanish or Smoke Bomb by the time you pop Prep, well, it feels like you are being penalized. It just doesn't feel good, it doesn't feel fun.

The class would do a lot better without this handicap. It would allow the design to move forward, instead of carrying a relic of the past.
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!@#$s op
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85 Undead Rogue
4630
Perhaps the other way around is to give the other trees something as useful as prep. I agree though that it is lazy design.
BUT, I m really used to have two vanishes on demand. So instead of destroying sub by removing prep and buffing the other stuff, give the other trees something just as powerful.
The whole balancing act between classes and trees starts all over again soon enough.
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87 Undead Rogue
5460
13/02/2012 21:14Posted by Slasch
I m really used to have two vanishes on demand. So instead of destroying sub by removing prep and buffing the other stuff, give the other trees something just as powerful.


Giving an option of something equally powerful would be very difficult to offer, and anything as significantly powerful would probably end up nerfed. Also, it means that they would have to introduce two new and powerful, quite drastic abilities to the class. It's quite rare that they would do something like this, and it'd also be more difficult to balance.

I understand your want for having two vanishes, because I do quite like that in pvp as well. The trouble is though, it feels over powered. There have been several occasions when I've wanted to vanish, but I only have " less than 10 seconds" until it has refreshed on it's own. The trouble is there's something training my !@#$ and I'll be dead in the next 3 seconds if I don't react right now, so I have no choice but to prep vanish or die.

While you won't be able to vanish back to back if you loose prep, just consider this for a moment... You might get a 90 or even 60 second cooldown on vanish. Sprint could be shortened to about a 30/40 seconds cooldown instead. Small changes like that would reduce your dependency on preparation and make the class more fun to play.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
7300
Cooldown for cooldowns are a bad idea.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
7575
TL:DR plz?
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87 Undead Rogue
5460
13/02/2012 23:36Posted by Eléctrica
TL:DR plz?


rogues are balanced around preparation, which means only the talent tree with prep is viable for pvp.

Get rid of prep, then we can have shorter cooldowns across the board without being op.
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92 Goblin Rogue
10455
I agree with the post. Even though the effect of Preparation has been mitigated in some aspects (from 10 minutes to 8 to 5, some abilities removed from it), the glyph means you put too many eggs in that basket.

Removing preparation and balancing the game around that is an idea. As another option I suggest doing something similar to Restless Blades, so the cooldowns can be up faster when preparation is picked.
Edited by Kriis on 13/02/2012 23:49 GMT
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Good thread, prep in the current game is just bad design. Then again, the whole pvp game needs to be looked at right now. Blowing everything right away and blowing someone up has become the new general playstyle all across the board and quite frankly playing good is nowhere near as rewarding as it was back in TBC. When I am terribly crippling or outright killing someone through spamming lots of cooldowns right in my opening burst it is hard to tell if I was playing good or bad. Funnily enough, it doesn't even matter.

In short, getting rid of preparation and all the similar mechanics would be a step in the right direction. However, there are many other things that are simply wrong with the game's current design.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
0
13/02/2012 23:59Posted by Xavast
Then again, the whole pvp game needs to be looked at right now. Blowing everything right away and blowing someone up has become the new general playstyle all across the board and quite frankly playing good is nowhere near as rewarding as it was back in TBC.

I have to stop there.

I played in TBC, this "blow him up fast" approach is NOT even slightly new.

They said the same when TBC launched.

They said the same when Wrath launched.

If anything Cata has been the slowest PvP I have seen in any of the expansions (I didn't play in Vanilla, but I heard it was even worse then.)
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85 Night Elf Rogue
10365
I think that the solution to this problem would be to remove preparation, but in return shorten base some survival cooldowns across the class by perhaps up to 50%


Sticky Requested!

I think this change is really needed.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
7300
15/02/2012 04:38Posted by Zanaken
If anything Cata has been the slowest PvP I have seen in any of the expansions (I didn't play in Vanilla, but I heard it was even worse then.)


I didn't play TBC or LK, but you could stunlock people from 100-0 quite easily in Vanilla, and rather quickly.
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90 Human Rogue
12360
Because at those times , there was no such thing as "diminishing returns".

Even if prep is removed , people will still play as Sub for pvp.Other specs just don't cut it well enough.Combat? Once your sprint has ended , you're back to square 1. Assa? Say hi to healers removing your poisons when you're about to envenom.

Sub has far too many advantages even without the prep talent. That's why it's considered the best pvp spec.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
7575
15/02/2012 08:48Posted by Genosha
Sub has far too many advantages even without the prep talent. That's why it's considered the best pvp spec.


I challenge you to skip preperation as a talent and see how you do.
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[quote="33714538260"]

If anything Cata has been the slowest PvP I have seen in any of the expansions (I didn't play in Vanilla, but I heard it was even worse then.)


Hello, you don't know what you are talking about. Ask anyone who has the slightest clue and they will tell you the same.

Have a fantastic day and multiple orgasms.
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90 Undead Rogue
6045
Isn't prep going to be available for all specs in MoP? I thought it was, which would pretty much solve the 'you have to go subtlety to get prep' problem.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
7575
15/02/2012 18:27Posted by Lasombre
Isn't prep going to be available for all specs in MoP? I thought it was, which would pretty much solve the 'you have to go subtlety to get prep' problem.


Probebly not going to be the talent of choice if it stays the way it is.
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90 Undead Rogue
6045
True enough.

13/02/2012 17:28Posted by Murdeh
The point to all this is just to say, that I really think if rogues have yet another expansion where they are balanced around preparation, they will continue to spec subtlety as a default, which kind of destroys the whole point of creating the option, or rather the illusion, of talent tree choice


Just saying that the idea of the new talent design is pretty much to negate this exact complaint. i.e. Prep for any tree, but not mandatory for any, means no-one's forced to go sub just to get prep. In fact most people won't even go for it at all given the other options, so worrying about cooldowns being balanced around it seems unnecessary.
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87 Undead Rogue
5460
isn't prep going to be available for all specs in MoP? I thought it was, which would pretty much solve the 'you have to go subtlety to get prep' problem.


At the moment, at level 60 they are going to make you choose between :

- (buffed) Preparation with 5 minute cooldown, which resets : sprint, vanish, cloak of shadows, evasion, smoke bomb, and dismantle.
- (nerfed) Shadowstep with 24 second cooldown and no damage or speed boosting. (at the moment, shadowstep increases movement speed by 70% for 3 seconds, and damage of next ambush by 30%)
- (stolen shadowstep) "Burst of speed" A new 4 second 70% HOF like sprint which costs 60 energy and has no cooldown.

BOS (^) Kind of makes shadowstep looks like it sucks in terms of mobility and counterbility. Being able to move.

It would be nice if shadowstep awarded 2 combo points and they just removed premeditation, which feels very outdated now that we have HAT.

Those talents just won't match up to preparation. Being able to reset 6 cooldowns isn't as good as gaining 1 new one. That simply isn't a choice. Apart from that, you can just see that people are going to call this new buffed preparation over powered, and they will nerf our abilities across the board to counter for them being able to use twice - just like they did with out 10 second smoke bomb because 20 second prep smoke bombs were over powered.
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