Topic
[Suggestion](Advanced) PvE item usage balance in PvP
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Edited by Tyressé on 09/02/12 18:47 (UTC)
Hi all, i am a competative PvP'er and i've been like that for 6 years now. I really enjoy the competative environment and a chance to test my "skills" (if you will) against other people. I'm also a Computer Science student that wants to be a game designer someday and i have some experiance about coding-game mechanics-balancing... I've even made some small games by myself.
Blizzard is the best "Balance maker" for PvP-PvE that i've seen so far in my life(Compared to other games). I know someone will allways be unhappy about the stuff, but generally we are all happy. But there is still an issue they havent adressed so far, that would be PvE items usage in arena and the slight unbalance they are creating. With the current Raid Finder everyone has the ability to obtain OP trinkets and items with really usefull stats that can be used in PvP. From the changes that have been made in the past few years (Mace stun removal, proc rates changed to +%damage instead of %chance to do double-triple damage, all classes have interrupts-stuns-ways to escape stuff-defensive cooldowns...) we can see that Blizzard is aiming arena to be less RNG related and more skill related. But there is an issue where, people that are doing PvE along side PvP will nearly "ALLWAYS" have an advantage over people with only PvP gear. This cant be fixed that easily since prohibiting all PvE items in arena will make it dull and with less diversity which limits the freedom that a player has and that is really bad because MMORPG's are all about freedom, doing whatever u want. And it also cant be determined by a hard resiliance bar which you wont be able to enter the arena if you arent above it, since this just solves nothing, people will gem resiliance and enter with PvE items anyway and people with new gear wont be able to take points from the arena. Even some PvP tournaments have "0" PvE gear rules nowadays.. I remember when i played with my hunter on LvL 80 days, i had 2 tier 10 bonus and that insane ARPEN trinket from Saurfang, i was doing %30 more damage from all other hunters and only took %5 more damage compared to them.. This was really fun for me, but really bad for other guys. We'd crush mirror and all other teams just because i had %30 more damage and insane procs that let me 2 shot people from %50 health. I've been a healer in the arena for years and i know, you as a human being,you adapt to the damage you are taking and heal accordingly(You cant overheal in arena, you'll go oom) and when a big proc comes to play, you cant adapt to that in 1-2 seconds and you die instantly(or let someone die) or end up using a big cooldown, this is true for all healers between range 1800-3000 rating, this is just how it goes. You play thousands of games and know what dmage what classes can put out and you heal according to that. This is clearly OP according to me for a class do suddenly do %30 more damage or proc something that crits for 40k and is just a trinket... This for me is a clear unbalance and i think i have a system that may prevent it in a nice way. I want to introduce to you... PvP Item LeveL namely PIL As we all know it, Item LeveL has been used for years for queing to random dungeons and raids and stuff but it has never been used in PvP. Since the code is allready implemented, this wont be that hard to implement to arenas. How it Works: All max level items will have a PvP Item LeveL which will be displayed in the character sheet and entering the arena or a RBG will require you to have a PvP Item LeveL "PIL" lower then a certain amount. PvE items will have a lower PIL or sometimes minus PIL (-PIL) and PvP items will have a higher PIL and PvP set bonuses will give BONUS PIL aswell. This PIL amount will be determined in two steps. Gems and Enchants will also have a PIL value. 1) by Blizzard's balance team 2) by an algoritm Next Page... |
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Edited by Tyressé on 09/02/12 18:31 (UTC)
For PVP-PVE Item PIL Value...
This value will be determined by: 1) the Resiliance the item gives 2) Stamina the item gives 3) The general Item LeveL of the item 4) The set bonus the item(s) gives 5) The socket bonus the item gives 6) The general stat the item gives (INT-STR-AGI-CRIT-HASTE-MASTERY-HIT-SPIRIT) 7) Procs(Will be assigned by Blizzard employees) Now, and example algoritm could be: (These are just random numbers, i dont want to do the balacing since it will take me around 1 week, blizzard can handle that, or if a blue poster wants it with balance, then i can waste my time) (Values after gemmed and enchanted and reforged) 1) Resiliance * 0.45 2) Stamina * 0.15 3) General ILvL * 0.10 (Legendary items receive no ILvL bonus) 4) 2 set bonus %10 more PIL | 4 set bonus %25 more PIL (%35 total) This %increase value applies on top of the TOTAL PIL thats derived by adding the PIL of all items. 5) If the item has a resiliance socket bonus it amplifies the PIL it gives by %10 6) General Stat * 0.25 7) Procs/Uses | Will have +/- %xxx amount on the item's PIL value. (Blizzard employee) This value can be even negative like -%200 PIL... Usually procs like; procs like %xx chance to do xxxxx damage procs that give combo points-huge mana regen-huge damage reduction procs that give %xx damage increase procs that lifesteal-spawn stuff-stun-silence generally procs that have FLAT values over stats will have a negative PIL value. Normal PvP Trinket Use(That gets you of ouf stun-silence-CC-slow) will have "0" PIL value to avoid other race advantage over human. The resiliance or other stats it gives will still effect the PIL value. For an item that has 100 resi 100 stamina 100 STR 100 item level Resi socket bonus we have a total of: 45+15+10+25 + %10 = 104,5 PIL total. There are 17 items that can be used in the game and we can say for example that you cant enter the arena if you dont have 2000 PIL value(This will be determined after balancing). Their stats are generated according to their item level and place they go in your character so there is allready an algoritm for that, you can simply combine those two and make PIL totally automated. What this does is, it limits the players options to use PvE gear in the arena. A player must choose between Legendary weapons and a good trinket. A player must choose between Tier12-13 2 set bonus and no other PvE items at all. A player must choose between 2 PvE trinkets and no other PvE gear at all. A player must choose between a good proc(s) that benefits his arena setup alot and give up stacking up a good stat(Like haste) using PvE items. This system can be balanced quite nicely.. I am not saying it will be easy, even some setups might lose their edge after this change but arena allways corrects itself in finding their balance at the end. The minimum PIL value to enter the arena and RBG will be determined by the Blizzard Employees. I myself am using quite a lot of PvE gear at the moment and i think it is really an unfair advantage over the other people. I was lucky to get my drop in the first week whereas others may have to wait months to do so. Next Page... |
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There is only one problem LEFT:
1) What do new players do who just dinged lvl 85 that dont have enough PIL do to enter the arena??? 2) What do players do who have no PvP gear at all that want to do arena? These 2 problems can be adressed by 2 solutions: 1) For new players, the PIL value will be increased for items with low item level to match the PIL value of the items that are obtained with Honor Points currency. What this means; I just dinged 85 and i have a blue items at itemlevel 350, and i want to do arena, not to miss 1650 Conquest Points this week. What the system does it, it matches the item to 390 item level, and gives a PIL as if the items stats were higher.(And states with a tooltip ---> PIL increased by %xx). Doesnt matter if the item is PvP or PvE, the system will match it up to PvP item PIL at itemlevel 390(Meaning Ruthless piece, at the moment). (This only goes for items that have lower item level then 370(2 patches old content), and for all items that are below epic quality regardless of their itemlevel) IMPORTANT NOTE: PVE TRINKETS ARE NOT AFFECTED BY THIS INCREASE. YOU CANT USE A 370 ILEVEL PVE TRINKET AND GOT IT TREATED AS A PVP ITEM. These itemlevel values can be coded inside an algoritm so that this system will update itself accordingly every new season. I just used "hardcode" numbers so that people may have a better understanding. You can say shortly: if your PIL aint enough, and you have itemlevel equipped below 360, you disregard PIL rule. 2) Well the solution would be, if you have a resiliance value below 500 (PvP trinket only as PvP peaces)(This number can be adjusted every season with an algotim too) you disregard the PIL rules. Below 500 resi you get %xxx bonus to PIL values to enter the arena. People who dont qualify for either of these options, you have a gear with 2000k resiliance and your itemlevel is 372(2 patches old content) and you dont have enough PIL, you will have to get your arena rating doing Normal BattleGrounds. This makes sense since if you farm all your conquest points via battlegrounds that week, you'll have enough honor to pass that PIL value we were talking about. Lastly, how the system will check if you have enough PIL or not? Allways checking EQUIPPED VALUES.. First check will be when you are queing for the arena, it says you can queue because you have someone in your party that doesnt have enough PIL value. When they fix their gear, they will queue. It will check as soon as you enter the arena-RBG(waiting for the doors to open). If you have enough PIL nothing happens, if you dont have enough PIL it gives you a warning to change your gear before the countdown ends. (OPTIONAL) When the doors open, the system checks your PIL value again, if you are below it, you automatically receive a PIL debuff that is basically the same thing as "Resurrection Sickness" (-%75 to everything) that lasts for 10-15 minutes.(Enough time to render you criplled in an arena match or a rated battleground). Well folks, really sorry about the lenghty post, i tried to make it as readable as possible. Hope you enjoyed, respect my work and atleast leave a comment. |
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Sounds like you thought about this. But it doesn't make much sense on first sight. Your formulas are weird. However, the very core of the idea is something i like.
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They are only examples mate, like a way to determine an item's PIL value. Formulas arent important at the moment, just the general idea of a PvP Item LeveL, formulas can be made meaningfull after some balancing and working. And since i dont %100 know how blizzard coded this game, that was my best guess on how it would work. Ty for the support |
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Edited by Káss on 12/02/12 10:40 (UTC)
I think all pve items should be banned from rated pvp, these items are designed for pve,
if they were to be used in rated pvp then why has bliz disallowed them in touneys?. But then blizz have nvr realy placed non tourny pvp as a priority, if they were to set rated pvp rules the same as tourney, i beleive this would help re the ballance that is lacking in rated. Blizz say pvp is ballanced in 3s but again its tourney 3s without the pve items, untill rated has the same conditions as tourney pvp, we will nvr have anything close to fair rated pvp. Edit: It wouldnt take much effort to place ( Not usable in rated pvp ) on these op pve items. |
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I remember when i played with my hunter on LvL 80 days, i had 2 tier 10 bonus and that insane ARPEN trinket from Saurfang, i was doing %30 more damage from all other hunters and only took %5 more damage compared to them.this is the problem actually. The trade off for dmg/heal output versus survivability shouldnt be like this. If you gain 10%dmg you should take 15% more dmg. So while fighting against equally ilvl pvp geared target he should be the one doing more damage on you. One other problem i see is some class can afford lower resil values (rogues,mages) because they have lots of tools to avoid taking damage. How often can you get to nuke a rogue/mage for 10sec? Finally some classes rely on PvE items to function properly. I dont know about others but ret PvP without PvE set bonus is unbearable. |
When mages dont shatter you for 60k it would be berable mate. No class can function at its full capacity without PvE items nowadays. Since blizzard put interrupts, self heals, stuns to nearly every class in the game, its really easy to survive without resiliance. Once you avoid the nuke damage, rest is easy. With 3 PvE items you get around 4k resilinace as full cata gear, instead of 4500-4800 resiliance. There is only %5 diffrence between damage taken between 4k resi and 4800 resi, this is just sad... Please implement PIL. |
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Hmm, isn't a simpler solution to simply make gear stats standardized in arenas? Of course, this would mean eliminating the gear grind, but I don't see that as necessarily a bad thing...
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No, then the fight would be down to skill not gear. |
Sorry i dont play a "GAME" when i cant have fun lol. |
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Fine idea i guess:P
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Best example (except trinkets) could be Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps. I felt it on my own skin fighting against similar to warrior classes (ret Paladin, DK etc.) it was easy to see that they had great advantage in dps on me, cow with Ruthless sword... And if you're not a raider-type of player you won't obtain this weapon so not skill but numbers are killing you in duels/arenas/bgs.
I'm not crying about it, imo it's great issue for most pvp players who play rBG insted of trying to kill Deathwing becuse that's what they like more. I fully support Your idea, very simpl in its core :) |
