Topic
One of the reasons why 25 man raiding is dying
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Edited by Bone on 20/02/12 15:50 (UTC)
*** This is NOT a post about 10 and 25 man difficulty, i don't care about that. But 10 and 25 man isn't the same, so achievements shouldn't be the same! ***
10 and 25 man raiding isn't the same, you know, we know it. There's no longer anything special about being a 25 man guild. As a 25 man guild you get rewarded as a 10 man guild, but just to make it even more lame, you get a lower ratio on tier loot aswell. To me it seems like you (Blizzard) wants to remove 25 man raiding after MoP (Pandaland). They do everything to make guilds NOT choose 25 man raiding. At least let us have our "own" achievement again. It won't fix all the problems, but it's a part of it. I would appriciate it, if you would take a minute to explain why you cannot or won't change it. Is that really too much to ask? Do you want 25 man raiding to die? If so i give you 10 points for doing a great job so far! |
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i somewhat agree, but at the sametime lately...its hell to get a 25m going...and im guessing its because of what u wrote above...
every guild that ive been in that tried to make guild 25 m sofar has failed...so yeah i think blizzard should either make 25m separate with diff shiz, or just remove it overall...since the interest in them are lacking since its no differense at all. just more lag i guess for some. |
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We have been running 40 and 25 man since the release of the game and will continue to do so. For many of us, 10 man dosn't feel like raiding for many reasons.
That's just what we prefer, but there should be room for both type of raiding. Lately it just don't seem like Blizzard agrees. It's two types of raiding and should be rewarded as so! |
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Edited by Bone on 14/02/12 04:59 (UTC)
10 and 25 man isn't the same, why should they have the same achievement, makes no sense at all. It's isn't about loot. If you want you can give 10 man raiding a whole set of tier drops per boss, i don't really care. As of now, Blizzards just looooove 10 man raiding and they do alot to make it even less appealing to raid 25 man. |
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10 man raiding less of each role better chances to get a loot = profit
So no one QQ's . This would be what blizz tought of about the matter. You hardcore players need to find another challange mate because WoW is becoming a casual friendly game. |
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Faster legendarys, more loot
You want special gratification for saying "LOL WE TOOK MORE PEOPLE TO OUR RAID THAN U" Go elsewhere. |
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Edited by Beerwolf on 14/02/12 07:36 (UTC)
First, and foremost, your very first statement in Bold... that's an oxymoron.
I don't see the point of having separate achievements when they're shared lockouts... And I don't see much of a difference between 10 and 25m for them to warrant their own achievements. But I know for a fact that 25m raiding is generally a lot easier than 10m, due to the fact there's more room for 'slack' in it. The only thing that I'd grant to your argument, would be the 'effort' of setting up a 25m. But this shouldn't be much of an issue if you've already got the numbers and sign ups. So this is pretty much irrelevant to the argument of 10v25 difficulty in itself. People in 10 and 25m do the same amount of work... Just because you're in a 25m doesn't imply in the slightest that you're doing anything more, or less, than someone in a 10m. But 10m raids can be prone to missing some buff(s) due to class compilation. 25m's already get the benefit of quicker gear distribution, and as someone's already mentioned, you get your legendaries a lot quicker. You used to get VP cap faster as well... but I think this has been equalised between the two, for some reason. |
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Edited by Danellos on 14/02/12 07:49 (UTC)
Threads such as these should be posted in the Raids and Dungeons forum in future:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/874704/ It will, however, be redirected later. Best not post subjects such as these on General. With that being said, one of the reasons I have boldly decided to put off raiding until MoP comes is because, as someone who was an advocate of 25-man raiding, I too felt that 25-man raiders were being treated quite unequally in comparison. I eventually grew weary of this, and abandoned raiding to my second hobby which is roleplay. That is one of the many reasons which lead me to migrate this character to Argent Dawn to join my stray alts there. There are many things that has contributed to the decline of 25-man raiding. Although I am merely repeating what has been said a hundred times all over the fourms, it started off with the equalizing of the loot between the two and the shared lockouts. Naturally, many gamers go down the path of least resistance. So as a result, they took the easier road which is 10man raiding. I am aware that 10-man raiding was much more difficult in T11, but right now, this is not the case. Why is 10man raiding easier? I believe a certain forum poster called Lorac has summarised it quite well: 1) People raid 10 over 25 because there is no 25 people guild in their server left. The only thing is that 25-man raiding may be a little more forgiving on the individual mistakes... regarding point 9 he made over there. Although I am not entirely sure whether or not it is within Blizzard's interests to keep 25-man raiding for MoP, except maybe for the LFR due to obvious reasons, I do believe there are a number of ways one could combat the decline in 25-man raiding. One of them is the separation of vanity rewards and achievements. They do not really need to make 25-man achievements or vanity rewards look more "special" than 10man versions thereof, but something that could differentiate a 10-man raider from a 25-man raider should help slow down the decline a little. So in essence, I agree with the OP on this suggestion. Whilst I do understand that they needed to equalize the loot between the two so that smaller guilds can be on par with the bigger guilds, this has created issues for the bigger guilds who are, as I write this, abandoning 25-man raiding to 10. The reason why they combined the lockouts is so that nobody can exploit that and get double loot rewards. Just my very honest opinion on the matter as someone who was a passionate 25-man raider not too long ago. TLDR - I agree with the OP. Vanity rewards and achievements should be separated. |
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They can't separate lockouts because otherwise people would take advantage of the extra opportunity to obtain loot. |
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10 man - 2 bits of loot - 1 item for every 5 players 25 ma - 5 bits of loot - 1 item for every 5 players..... |
To be entirely frank, does that even matter any more? We already have the loot lotery of LFR that a lot of raiders feel forced to do just to help the guild, we may as well have 25 man raids that drop the same loot as 10 mans (but more per person ofc). At least it would bring back some PuG raiding, and give people something to do between raid nights. |
Of course they can separate lockouts. Just give 25 man loot a 5 ilvl advantage, and while they are at it separate achievements, and correct the raiding design screw up they did in Cataclysm. This would mean good items drop in 10 man, but the best in 25 man. 25 man is the harder raiding format to manage and strategically organize, and this should be recognized by the designers. I raid both 10 and 25 man, and like them both. I've cleared all the Cataclysm instances on heroic on both sizes. Some bosses, like Beth HC in Firelands, were harder on 10 man: But that's more the exception, than the rule. On average 25 man is harder than 10 man. |
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Got to love all the muppets that still after all those months feel that 10 man "alt runs" are of same caliber as the 25 mans.
Every !@@#!%%#% guild that never was even visible on realm rankings of individual realms sits on a comfortable 5-6 HM's done atm on 10 man yet they cant see its people spiting on them but think its raining instead. Crazy skills acquired on 1 tier ftw ! |
10 man - 2 bits of loot - 1 item for every 5 players A 25 man has to have a roster of at least 32+ players(or will end up canceling raids so often its not funny), which means it could easily do 3x 10 man raids instead. Most of the points against 25 man guilds were covered in Danellos's post. Personally i would love to see Blizzard step up and admit the current 10/25 system has flaws and they're working on something. |
Ultraxion 25 HC before buff sais Hi! Rag 25 HC sais hi! Al Akir 25 HC sais hi!Baleroc 25 HC sais HI! Council 25 HC sais hi! Yohr Sahj HC sais Hi! Spine HC sais Hi! Madness with 1 tank and SP sais HI... oh wait it is 10 man... Toursit mode can never be harder than 25 |
