One of the reasons why 25 man raiding is dying

85 Gnome Mage
12535
27/02/2012 20:57Posted by Darkblazer

Hehe come on :)
We had Anc<3 Italian Guild that simply disbanded< 2 Bad last guild worth mencion in our server.


This guy does go on a bit. I wouldn't mind but it's not really coherent.

90 Worgen Mage
14915
We had Anc<3 Italian Guild that simply disbanded< 2 Bad last guild worth mencion in our server.


This guy does go on a bit. I wouldn't mind but it's not really coherent.

A bit? :)
90 Night Elf Death Knight
15355
Well if you ever read the above posts i raided until 3 weeks now as a 25-man raider in a 25-man guild.
Just now i have 3 weeks since raid as a 10-man


*waves hand* I did my 1st 10 man last reset. With 9 other people, who'd really prefer bigger sizes.

And I keep reminding, people on forums, who think every 10 man team does it by choice it is not true. Human psychology and Blizzards actions guiding it are just beast of its own that single players will cannot control it.

I gave oath to quit before I downsize and play on way i do not enjoy, but i saw 9 quite fresh people (people, who barely ever done any HM/old school raiding) full of spark that might ignite fire in "poor ol' " me again.

And really downsizing was not done voluntairly. We split 25 man raid team to 2 and half 10 mans since logistics, gains and so on makes it easier to maintain, not to mention guiding new bloods is easier this way.
27/02/2012 07:34Posted by Auntpally
This specifically. It took all of two seconds for guilds to realize that they would progress much much faster in 10 mans if they condensed all the good players into one team thus leaving the weaker players to try to form their own teams. Killing off 25 mans, because that is effectively what the current policy is doing, did not achieve inclusivity, it probably caused more exclusion than any other decision made in this game.

funny thing is ... my guilds 10 mans now have exactly same progress ratio. So whatever was Blizzards aim with the move showed not working on us.
Edited by Azriyel on 07/03/2012 06:42 GMT
85 Tauren Warrior
3525
Just posting to add support to idea of seperate achievements for 10 and 25.

Right now it feels like Blizzard are sitting there and comparing apples to oranges and claiming them to be the same, because they are "fruit".

25 man is dying, its becoming harder and harder to recruit. Couple that with the two hardest bosses in the last two tiers needing quite stacked setups (Rag with ranged dps/AoE and Spine with burst classes) and you have a situation where guilds are struggling, really really badly.
85 Human Warlock
13880
I know noone cares but, I wrote two weeks ago how my guild went to 10m becoz it was almost impossible to recruit blalaballaa...

we had 2/8 now we are 6/8

What made me laugh is ultraxion going down in 4:45.. Yeah, so freaking dps check... !!!
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-d14uuwrxo1ek39a5/dashboard/?s=3133&e=3419

!@#$ 10m raiding

oh, wts account

90 Worgen Mage
14915
Just posting to add support to idea of seperate achievements for 10 and 25.

Right now it feels like Blizzard are sitting there and comparing apples to oranges and claiming them to be the same, because they are "fruit".

25 man is dying, its becoming harder and harder to recruit. Couple that with the two hardest bosses in the last two tiers needing quite stacked setups (Rag with ranged dps/AoE and Spine with burst classes) and you have a situation where guilds are struggling, really really badly.

Exactly.
85 Gnome Mage
12535
Just posting to add support to idea of seperate achievements for 10 and 25.

Right now it feels like Blizzard are sitting there and comparing apples to oranges and claiming them to be the same, because they are "fruit".

25 man is dying, its becoming harder and harder to recruit. Couple that with the two hardest bosses in the last two tiers needing quite stacked setups (Rag with ranged dps/AoE and Spine with burst classes) and you have a situation where guilds are struggling, really really badly.

Exactly.


Hard to recruit? I'd say impossible. If you stall progress, you die.
90 Human Death Knight
7970
25 man raiding is far more satisfying, especially as it is a harder form of raiding. The "it's more forgiving than 10 man" argument is nonsense. As there's also a much higher chance of someone doing something which will wipe the raid.

Mistakes on bouncing the Zonozz ball, not soaking Hour of twilight on heroic Ultraxion, a dps standing in the wrong place on Warmaster etc etc.

I'm not saying the difficulties of 10 or 25 man should be altered, but if they stay at the existing levels, 25 man should get bonus achievement rewards, slightly better gear or similar.
100 Worgen Mage
15530
I didn't get they whole make 10 man and 25 man gear the same when you know that you can't make the different sizes the same difficulty.

Sometimes 10 man can be harder, sometimes 25.

Back in wrath, when 10 man gear was a lower ilvl, I was in a 10 man guild. The main problem we had with gear in wrath was not that it was a lower ilvl, but that it was different gear.

Whilst 25 man had access to both to min max there gear, 10 mans had to suck it up with gear that was badly itemized.

Back in wrath, all we wanted was the same gear, even if it had reduced stats compared to the 25 man, so that gearing up didn't feel like a chore.
100 Draenei Shaman
9890
Because of the declining player pool for 25 mans, we are cancelling more raids than we are actually going ahead with. This is stalling our progression in heroic mode content, which means we are less attractive for people to join.

Fact that 25 man heroic means you are locked out of 10 man heroic, doesn't really help either. If on our first raid day of the week we kill 1 boss on heroic, and don't have enough people for the second raid day, we either have to call the raid or continue clearing it on normal, because we cannot continue it on heroic as a 10 man.

It feels like we're fighting a loosing battle as a guild, and it is very frustrating. The players that are still in the guild are getting more an more annoyed, and I can't say I don't understand them. I fear my guild is dying, and I can't do anything about it. If there are some changes coming for MoP, then great. I just fear that it is too little too late.

I understand the need from Blizzard to make the game more appealing to a broader audience. Get more people in, and try to keep them around by making the content easy enough for everyone to see. However, flip side is, in my opinion, that by dumbing the game down will make people turn away form the game sooner as well.

Anyways, probably a post in vain hope of someone at Blizzard reading it and actually replying in this thread.
85 Gnome Mage
12535


Because of the declining player pool for 25 mans, we are cancelling more raids than we are actually going ahead with. This is stalling our progression in heroic mode content, which means we are less attractive for people to join.

Fact that 25 man heroic means you are locked out of 10 man heroic, doesn't really help either. If on our first raid day of the week we kill 1 boss on heroic, and don't have enough people for the second raid day, we either have to call the raid or continue clearing it on normal, because we cannot continue it on heroic as a 10 man.

It feels like we're fighting a loosing battle as a guild, and it is very frustrating. The players that are still in the guild are getting more an more annoyed, and I can't say I don't understand them. I fear my guild is dying, and I can't do anything about it. If there are some changes coming for MoP, then great. I just fear that it is too little too late.

I understand the need from Blizzard to make the game more appealing to a broader audience. Get more people in, and try to keep them around by making the content easy enough for everyone to see. However, flip side is, in my opinion, that by dumbing the game down will make people turn away form the game sooner as well.

Anyways, probably a post in vain hope of someone at Blizzard reading it and actually replying in this thread.


Yup. As I've said. If you stall, you go down.

The funny thing is blizzard is very focused on keeping subscribers, Annual Pass for 1 million and now lots of bonuses in the new scroll of rez. A few words addressing the concerns of the the 25 man raiding community would go a long way to giving guilds the will to carry-on. The super-silence is not really giving us hope, quite the opposite.
Edited by Boodara on 10/03/2012 17:57 GMT
2 Night Elf Hunter
0


Yup. As I've said. If you stall, you go down.

The funny thing is blizzard is very focused on keeping subscribers, Annual Pass for 1 million and now lots of bonuses in the new scroll of rez. A few words addressing the concerns of the the 25 man raiding community would go a long way to giving guilds the will to carry-on. The super-silence is not really giving us hope, quite the opposite.


Yes Blizzard seem very silent on this rogue elephant in the room (i.e., 10 and 25 man raid balance, and their policy of rewarding both formats in the same way). They should address in clear terms the concerns raised by many, many players on all sides of the Atlantic.
Edited by Ranger on 10/03/2012 18:17 GMT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6035
Like i said they wont reply, we created around 10 similar posts and not a single reply mat not 1. Believe me they wont reply, cause they wanna put this between walls and dont wanna hear about it. You know what their tactic is and we fall for?? They cOme up with new ideas and new designs so they make sure we slowly forget the damage which has been done to us by this raid system, you know like draw the attention to something else, they think we created a bit of chaos among the players, and chaos is needed to control people, they forget 1 thing this is virtual reality not real life, if you lose people its hard to get them back to the community cause there are a lot of communitys out there as in mmos. So keep bleeding blizzard i will see to it, keep being stubborn as if you created a superior idea wit this stupid raidsystem, you will soon see the damage you will get, and miss your old days!!!!!
90 Night Elf Death Knight
15355
They see 25 mans breaking, thinking that's something right they do with downsizing : it's something people must like more! Without analysing why it is so (or doing it wrong), they presume and they will continue working against survival of 25, believing its what we want.

But at end they'll see it themselves what "we" thought. We accepted wotlk model, but because we had vanity that kept it alive, now you take away all and think loot is only goal people have while self being vanity creatures ? I guess it was temporarly fix for subs and cash - thats what company wanted. But a company can always aim for quick income or more stable income. I suppose Blizzard now just wants the 1st.
90 Undead Rogue
12630
I believe after 3 months of Lfr that people dont wan't anymore to raids.
Simply look at the amazing amounts of threads about Loots/loosing and everything.

Lfr is the (raid...) that atm is one of the environment that most of the peoples runs.
The game itself has become casual/leech/noob/afkcraft so people won't bother anymore with raiding and especially a size like 25-man.
Atm i stopped raiding since there is nothing to do in this game.
Loots/gear up is no worth since at one point you dont enjoy this game anymore.

At the end try to see that is not only blizz that dont put love is 25-man but the people also.
Like many would now say . Put a vendor for free epix in this game and everyone would be happy.

Look at the raids and everything above with pve environment.
A crappy raid like ds i wouldn't expected 2 years ago and yet has happen.
With those raids of doing exactly nothing people will have been descreased by a large percentage.
Seeying many people gms/officers of 25-man are kinda tired since the fresh blood(new players) have been trained via Lfr so in a 25-man environment are loost.( Raid=Ultraxion 25-man Normal and got asked from a trial if this is heroic mode...... That was just for lol).
90 Worgen Mage
14915
10/03/2012 17:57Posted by Boodara
The funny thing is blizzard is very focused on keeping subscribers, Annual Pass for 1 million and now lots of bonuses in the new scroll of rez. A few words addressing the concerns of the the 25 man raiding community would go a long way to giving guilds the will to carry-on. The super-silence is not really giving us hope, quite the opposite.

Couldn't agree more. But if we get some kind of answer, it's properly going to be a standard helpdesk answer :S
85 Dwarf Paladin
3350
We're doing our first 25m normal tomorrow. I'd really like to see a separate achievement for pulling it off, given how much extra time and effort it takes to set it all up.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
12970
14/03/2012 00:39Posted by Pwnstars
We're doing our first 25m normal tomorrow. I'd really like to see a separate achievement for pulling it off, given how much extra time and effort it takes to set it all up.


having to gather more then twice the amount of REAL people (and having to manage them and the raid they form), gives the same awards/achievement/gear in blizz logic.even a simple (25) behind achievements would satisfy alot of players already but yet they continue the pissing on 25man players.
Edited by Kayhá on 14/03/2012 02:26 GMT
90 Human Hunter
0
07/03/2012 11:03Posted by Neidral
Just posting to add support to idea of seperate achievements for 10 and 25.
That would force achievement hunters do same content twice. So its not a solution for the problem.

If there are kept same instances then achievements should be the same, and item drops better than 10-man.

However the best ever solution is to make different instances just like it was in TBC. Also difficulty should be in separate instances because heroic raiding feels like doing the same thing again.
90 Worgen Mage
14915
14/03/2012 06:37Posted by Teiksma
That would force achievement hunters do same content twice. So its not a solution for the problem.

And?
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