Topic
One of the reasons why 25 man raiding is dying
ym is round btw, this needs to stop. i'm tired of it, and quite frankly all this effort is wasted as blizzard are continuing with their current raiding model in MoP anyway |
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I'd be happy with the current model as long as they introduce different achievements. That'll easily separate the 25 man raiders from the 10 man raiders. It's that simple. No loot changes, nothing.
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[quote] I see this a lot. Translation "Stop disagree'ing with me! I love the status-quo.Having easymode 10 man raids is great for me personally and I don't care what other people want." Guess what. The raid lock out, 10 and 25 split is the most hated thing in Cataclysm, and that's saying a lot. After all Archeology, DS, ect..... OH BTW. Blizzard haven't said what the raiding lock-out model will EXACTLY be in MoP. Except that it will involve 10 and 25's. Everything else is up for discussion. |
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I did read the whole post, bolded it for ya A top 100 guild could probably go with a retarded setup and still down everything on hc Saying players cant analyse both modes is beyond stupid |
[quote] i champion a lot of the 10 v 25 man debate but it's worthless just ride the wave, it's what im doing. using 10 mans to get easymode achievements ^_^ |
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Edited by Seethe on 30/04/12 19:51 (BST)
subjective. so i must say DENIED! your a well known troll of this subject, maybe go actually raid rather then always making the same boring comments or actually discuss. FYI alot of this debate is regarding 10 vs 25 hardmode difficulty which has not been balanced in 2 teirs. I speak from experience, unfortunately their is not much you can add to this other then Hyperbole and conjecture. Separate achievements, titles and increased vanity mount drops would be a start for 25man guilds. atm its as follows: 10 weeks = 10 mounts for 10 raiders. 10 weeks = 20 mounts for 25 raiders. *3 additional weeks are needed to get the remaining 5 mounts. I suggest for 25man raids. 2 mounts + a 50% chance of a 3rd mount for 25man raids. separate achievements including realm first kill achievements. separate titles 2 teir tokens + a 50% chance of a 3rd token. Different loot art. a better attempt at balancing 10man difficulty to bring future raids back more inline with T11. This will actually bring some pride back to 10man raiders and give them that feeling all 25man raiders have of raiding the real end game content. this feeling should be mutual. |
For me doing 10 mans is like running 5 man dungeon. Just with more aoe. Even 25 mans are like extended party, but well what can i say, I used to be a 40 man raider and enjoyed nax40 and AQ40 greatly. Where linking mechanics and group dynamics meant something. 10 mans is ... well yeah for me ... like queueing LFD ... and I hate doing them.... with passion. |
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Signed.
Dear Blizzard, at the very least please give 25 man raiders separate achievements(or if you feel that it would 'force' achievement hunters to join 25 man guilds just to get everything done, separate realm first feats of strength). With the current decline of 25 man guilds, im afraid there wont be (m)any left by the end of Mists of Pandaria if nothing is done and current trend continues. |
They don't care and it is confirmed now. Don't try to aproach the matter as if they re not aware of it and for this reason they don't take apropriate action to counter it. They know, and they wont raise a fingure even if things get worse. This is what their rep in china said (in translation ofc). So far i havent seen anybody telling that this does not represent the company's opinion for the matter, thus it is the truth till we re told otherwise. "Q: The number of 25-man raiding guilds seems to be declining. Are there going to be any plans to encourage them? Or do you plan to remove 25-man raids? A: The number of 25-man raiding guilds is probably going to keep decreasing, but we will still continue to provide 25-man raids unless one day no one does 25-man raids anymore. We do not have direct plans to encourage players to choose 25-man. We hope to keep 10-man and 25-man raids close enough so players can choose the type that they find interesting. (Provided you have enough people to run 10-man or 25-man raids)" Translation from a chinese Q&A Source http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/ |
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The whole point of Blizzard providing forums for their customers to use is to provide feedback. Just because they don't do what a load of us want doesn't mean they don't listen or are not swayed by the discussions. Blizzard have implemented many changes in the past based upon what people say on forums. So keep on making it clear what you want from the game and, if enough people agree, and it fits into Blizzard's vision for the future of WoW, then changes may be made. |
I keep making clear what i believe is right for the future, and what is the truth for the present and the past. For the future i always state for months pretty much the following: I don't want 10/25 to keep existing. I don't think that the game has anything to benefit from this model, anymore. If some things are changed, aka reversed so 25 has a point of existance again, other than preference, 10 people raiders would protest and the rift dividing the community would grow even deeper. If nothing is done, 25 people raids will virtually vanish. The only guilds that would be able to continue in that mode, would be Paragon's skill level. This will make the epeen of certain members of some of those guilds even bigger, and the only thing that would come out of this is more quarell and more divided community. Think out of the box people, and ask for this nonsence to be deleted! |
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Edited by Vensferatu on 08/05/12 22:31 (BST)
This is kind of ironic seeing as you never make a post without a generalised comment on how all 10man is easymode. To this day, you still ignore the likes of Sinestra and Blackhand, and constantly preach garbish figures from world of logs. There is still no evidence of 10 being vastly (and that's the key word) easier than 25man. I'm sorry, but on the week of release, when half the top ranked guilds were forced 10 for cheating, most couldn't get past Blackhand. The week later, when they were all back to 25man, most cleared straight to spine. You can argue what you want, but the fact is that both modes were virtually cleared up to DW in one week. That doesn't equate to one being drastically easier than another. You can beat around the bush that one fight is easier on 10man, but the fact is, all you have is ONE FIGHT. All you ever say is Ultraxion this, Majordomo that. The reason DPS race encounters have always favoured 10man is a simple mathematics point. It's easier to get 6 DPS pulling out the same figures than it is 18. It's not like it's hard to get balance in a DPS race, you simply create the bosses HP by the multiplying the amount of DPS you want by the average DPS you expect them to have and multiply by the maximum time before the raid auto wipes. If you factor in 10man with 2 tanks 3 healers, the DPS requirements for Ultraxion are EXACTLY the same as 25man with 2 tanks 5 healers. The problem was, A) getting 18 DPS to pull their optimum game is kinda hard for many, and B) 10mans could 2 heal it purely because of Paladins! This has nothing to do with 10 v 25, its all to do with a single healer which has continued after 3 expansions to still be a 1 man healing crew. The only way to fix A is to nerf 25man content down to not require optimal output to compensate for slackers. Now, not being funny, doesn't that go against your philosophy that 25man is the 'epic' experience? To fix B, well, you're never going to fix it. There will always be classes that make fights trivial, hello rogues and Valiona and Theralion. Nobody in 10man or otherwise says that Ultraxion is not easier on 10man. Is it so vastly easier that it defines the whole raiding scene though? Hell no. Who cares about Ultraxion. 25mans have Hagara. Why do 25mans never ever talk about why she's so vastly easier on their tier? Because nobody cares. If your going to turn your 25man to a 10man, slay a couple of extra bosses, and claim the DPS race just wasnt there, I sure as hell hope your 10man crew wasn't touting 2-3 legendary staves. It it was, then I assume you were comparing your 25man failings to a raid which had 6-9? Otehrwise what's the comparison. This is why your arguments mean moot. You take your 10best raiders from 25, probably all stacked in BiS from their DKP pwnage, and then suddenly boost your raids average item level by 5 and go pawn in 10man. No !@#$ you kill a few enrage based bosses. As for the stupid reply about Paragons Rag example. Paragons 10man Rag proves nothing. One would assume that most raiders have enough of a brain to see that. Regardless of what gear their 10man group had, the fact was, I'm pretty sure most of them had already killed Rag on 25man. Now, unless Paragon was so god damn good on 25man that from 10pulls in they were blasting through to P4, getting all the ice patches correct, and then wiping on the enrage, then maybe they proved something. But I'm willing to bet, somewhere along the line on their 200+ whatever wipes, they wiped in P1, they wiped in P2, they wiped in P3, they wiped in P4. I'm betting people died lots on world in flames as they learnt the borders, I'm betting people died lots on seeds, I'm betting people died buckloads as they learned to position on ice patches without causing Geyser. How can you learn the basics of the fight in one raid, convert it to another, and then go LAWL M8'S, EASYMODE. Or did each of them suddenly suffer from a short term amnesia where they had to relearn all those basics again? The real question is, if 10man is so god damn easy, why did it take them over 60 wipes to kill it when they already knew exactly what to do? HOw many wipes did it take their 25man to rekill it the same week or week after? This information was never given to us. Why was it when people called for them to do 10man back in T11, they adopted the attitude of there not being any point because it wouldn't prove anything, knowing full well half the encoutners were unkillable. All of a sudden, Firelands comes out, and they have a point to prove? I have a lot of respect for Paragon and what their players do, but anyone who looks at that Rag round and touts it as proof of 10 v 25 easymode supremity is a moron. Anyoen who killed Rag before the patchnerf to the ice patch knows the pain of the 200 odd wipes to learn it, regardless of whether they were 10 or 25man. And that's a credit to the fight. If anything, Rag proves how close 10 and 25man raiding actually is. |
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Edited by Nissim on 09/05/12 04:58 (BST)
You are wrong. The simple fact that ragnaros had to be 3 healed for the dps requierments to be met for the world 1st proves enough that 10man wich was 2 healed was vastly undertuned. And yes paragon know better then you my friend and it does not matter how many times they wiped 10man since the insane overtuning in t11 has become a complete and utter joke compared to 25man. And again the world 1st 10man killed by paragon and with less avarage gear lvl then the second guild that actually killed it was 2 healed as i mentioned above. Again argument is moot. |
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Vensferatu, alot of what you're saying is borderline stupid. Let me point it out for you:
Your Ultraxion example is pure bull!@#$. Even IF Ultraxion 2-3-5 in 10 man has the exact same dps requirements as 2-5-18 in 25 man, there's a flaw in your logic - if you assume 10 man is tuned around 3 healers, then 25 man is tuned around 6 (which is obviously the case anyway, considering the amount of crystals that spawns). So what you're doing is comparing the "optimal" (in blizzard's eyes) raid setup in 10 man to a suboptimal raid setup in 25 and saying they have the same dps requirement. Disregarding that, if your raid was unable to 2 heal ultraxion prenerf in 10 man without a paladin, you should look around for new healers. I did it prenerf in 393 Ilvl average on my resto druid, with a 390 Ilvl average disc priest backing me up. The dmg output was so low that I could soloheal it untill the blue crystal spawned (allowing the disc to smite), at which point the disc priest just went crazy with PoH. We managed to heal it untill 6:06 without having any major issues except for me starting to go low on mana (~15%) towards the end. On the other hand, if you managed to defeat Ultraxion without having 2 paladins in 25 man, then those healers are amazing. We had to do it with 1 paladin one week, and I was brought in on my druid to back it up - this was for the rekill back in the start of january, and I'm still ranked around top 100 on my *alt* on that. If your going to turn your 25man to a 10man, slay a couple of extra bosses, and claim the DPS race just wasnt there, I sure as hell hope your 10man crew wasn't touting 2-3 legendary staves. It it was, then I assume you were comparing your 25man failings to a raid which had 6-9? Otehrwise what's the comparison. This is why your arguments mean moot. You take your 10best raiders from 25, probably all stacked in BiS from their DKP pwnage, and then suddenly boost your raids average item level by 5 and go pawn in 10man. No !@#$ you kill a few enrage based bosses. Ours had 1 untill we defeated spine (alt runs ftw). Our 25 man had 8 (1 transfer, 5 build before DS, 2 build the reset we killed ultraxion). This is why your arguments *are* moot. You think 25 man got 14 staffs out of nowhere to slap on their raiders? We had 2x 25 man raids going ever since we defeated Ragnaros (in top 100), and only managed to get 2x extra staffs. If we had not done that, we would have had 4 staffs by the time DS was released, and 5 by the time we defeated ultraxion - exactly the same as a 10 man (~2 staffs). If a 10 man guild decided they were above slapping together a 10 man alt raid to get one of their main casters a legendary, then thats *them* slacking, not the 25 man getting an unfair advantage for putting in extra effort. Method/Blood Legion ran 2-3 25man alt runs every week, and 2-3 10 man's in order to get the amount of staffs they had. Any 10 man could have done the same thing to get their entire roster decked in staffs. Also, most of the comparisons from competent raiders like me you're reading, have been observed through 2 different characters - an alt and a a main. It doesn't matter if my hunter had 400 item lvl average when we downed ultraxion in the alt run, because I wasn't playing my hunter in the alt run - I was playing my 393 item level resto druid. Your DKP point is, as such, moot. As for your Paragon bashing: They didn't leave us to conclude that the encounter was easier because they spent less wipes there than in 25 man - they openly *TOLD* us that 25 man was harder. If you're so stupid that you can't fathom how competent raiders can judge something like that, even if the mechanics are the same and they already learnt the mechanics, then I weep for you. Let me try to put this as simple as I can: They spent ~500 wipes on 25 man. They spent ~60 wipes on 10 man. As they didn't have to learn the encounter, this is entirely reasonable (they already knew every phase, and how to deal with the breadth). HOWEVER - this is not why they said 10 man was easier. They said 10 man was easier because: Son's are less of an issue due to HP. Engulfings had less of an impact due to nerfed dps requirements giving you more leeway to focus on movement. Seeds were alot easier due to the logistical issue. There's alot of additional reasons, but I'm sure a competent raider like you have considered those. In any case, point stands - the reason it was easier was not they killed it faster. It's the fact that the encounter *was* easier, and they found it easier than 25 man. No matter how many times you kill a boss, doesn't change it's relative difficulty - it only changes your experience on the fight and makes you less prone to fail on it. Why was it when people called for them to do 10man back in T11, they adopted the attitude of there not being any point because it wouldn't prove anything, knowing full well half the encoutners were unkillable. All of a sudden, Firelands comes out, and they have a point to prove? Actually, now you're just assuming. I can do that too - Paragon was tired after clearing the most brutal raid tier yet, with 13 bosses, lasting for months. Why would they go back to do 10 man to prove anything to you? Besides, you can't compare T11 and T12 - T12 had 6 "easy" bosses and 1 superhard boss. T13 had multiple very hard bosses, and a significant amount of "hard" bosses. The only "easy" one's were Halfus, Chim, and post-post-post-post-post nerf Atramedes (thats how many times they changed him, right?). Remember, their detour to Firelands took them one reset of 10 man raiding, while they were already on a break due to having cleared the tier. If they'd gone 10 man, there's no doubt about it that they'd need multiple resets to chew their way through every single 10 man boss, both due to difficulty, but also due to the vastly different tactics they would have to progress with due to the difference back then between 10/25, but also just due to the pure amount of bosses aviable for them to have to defeat. For a top end guild, having 10 of your raiders running around in 10 man for weeks is not an option, as you need to focus on the next tier - which means making sure you clear as many heroic bosses as possible to get BiS. |
