Topic
One of the reasons why 25 man raiding is dying
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personaly I am not supriced 10 man is starting to take over and 25 man guilds are downgrading or dispanding.
I did 25 back in tbc and after a while started to hate it, not becuse it was hard not becuse it easy, but becuse of the people in it, there was always some whiny idiot having horrible mood swings, and most of the times I did not acutaly even know some of the raiders, there was no real comunity exept some who sticked together. once wotlk came out I instantly jumped to 10 man raiding, way more fun and you actualy get to know the people much better, and any emo kid who for some reason happens to end up on the raid, is soon gone fast anyways, cause you dont need him or her. where in 25 man you probably have to stick whit that dude for a long time. only reason I actulay found 25 man raiding maby harder than 10 man was to get 25 morons to work toghether, where 10 man you still have to get all to work togheter but it goes a lil faster for them to get it cause there is 15 less that has to learn the fight. |
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In a larger group of people it is more likely to find those as well.
There is nowhere written as one of the 10 commantments that 25 is the raid size that you will raid with drama queens and 10s are the friendly paradise. You can very easily have self centered people in a 10 man as well. In fact, the urge to be in a group of fewer people where YOUR impact is larger and OTHER people mistakes more noticeable, is a sign of self centered behaviour. Since you are raiding 10 since wrath, you have neither the knowledge nor the experience to judge on difficulty and community in a 25. Since your experience in a 25 man team more than 3 years ago was bad, that is also making you quite biased on the matter. You prefer 10? Very well, good for you! The problem here is that many prefer 25 but are raiding 10. Your opening sentence is right, 10s are taking over. Your argumentation over why this is happening, based on your own experience, is wrong. |
personaly I am not supriced 10 man is starting to take over and 25 man guilds are downgrading or dispanding. So that you disagreed with someone, or did not like their persona - it serves right the people, who like 25s ? You know I want to counter your experience with mine. Soon after I retired from high-end gaming and rank chase, I ended up in half social guild in some no-name realm (fair enough I tell the realm was Emerald Dream), I got in arguments, was called whiner just because I demanded people to be flasked, eat food and theorycraft the gear upgrades instead loot crying and generally perform better than they did. After I left the realm and changed guilds, I was promoted to raid leader for same characteristics. And you say its only 25 mans where you can get to meet bad seeds? My current 10 man team has had those too (but RL word I've just replaced them quicker). And my previous 25 man team had decent community and was able to run even 2*25 man runs sometime pre 4.3 Community develops in time and has NONE to do with 10 or 25. |
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Edited by Pliffy on 10/05/12 10:58 (BST)
actualy I said it is easier to get rid of people that whine in 10 man than in 25 man, and many do prefer to raid whit people they like, in 25 man that is not always possible.
and yeah I wasnt in a 25 man guild in wotlk, did raid whit a semi pug though 25 man up to LK, then cata came. *cerid I actualy said they exist in 10 man to, but theyr are easier to get rid of if to many people dont like them, cause it is easier to fill up a 10 man group than a 25 man group. personaly I liked wotlk style where you could raid both 10 and 25 man, there where lots of raids going on back then. forgot to say offcourse you find idiots in 10 mans to they guild I am in have a had a few to. |
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Ah now when I read your post again, I see I've misread portion of it. Note to self- never post without caffeine. Due to the recruitment low-down mid 4.2 we had to drop on quality on 25 man raiding and stick with the people we didn't see optimal. While I run casual 10 man, I did actually kick out a decent player for loot drama. Since with 10 man you can even optimise your friends alts, plan schedule around random hours and so on.
Logistics is way easier on 10 man. So is filling/altering roster. |
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I raid 10man, I actually prefer 25mans to be honest, I mean.. if i think about it.. my guild has never missed a raid, and compare it to the 25man who were on equal progression to us..
they geared up a lot faster just because 2 drops a boss really screws you over when going for BiS. There is also the fact our rogue took like 2.5x as long to get legendaries, which to me is abit of a rediculous handicap, but still.. especially considering there are only 8 bosses in DS... 2.5x longer of the same content, blergh. Boring. GG RNG. On the other hand it's easier to fix up a 10 man, but harder to switch people in an out, due to gearing.. it's easier to carry someone on 25man.. not so much on 10, you need everyone pulling their weight.. you also have an extra 2-3 battleresses on 25? so many more oh !@#$ buttons it's a bit ridiculous . As for more %^-*!@#s in 25.. well, thats entirely down to your group.. granted personalities have more of a tendency to clash in 25man, but then again this can happen on 10man too.. some people just need to be put in their place. |
I raid 10man, I actually prefer 25mans to be honest, I mean.. if i think about it.. my guild has never missed a raid, and compare it to the 25man who were on equal progression to us.. Hmm, you don't really mean it i guess... so i wont reply in the apropriate manner. ...it's easier to carry someone on 25man.. not so much on 10, you need everyone pulling their weight.. you also have an extra 2-3 battleresses on 25? so many more oh !@#$ buttons it's a bit ridiculous . You clearly "prefer" the unknown. Cause you don't know what you re talking about, regarding 25. But since it has been discussed in this very thread, i won't repeat myself. I erased the first sentence since it was actually valid. Diablo is out anyway, nobody almost care to raid anymore, till next XPac. Then, in MoP the same problem that we have now, that prevent 25s from happening and people that prefer them to go for them will return. But it will be part of the everyday wow. The issue died, cause people that tryed for countless hours to argue that what is happening is wrong got ignored in the most outrageous at start, and dissapointing way in the end. It is their game in the bottom line, not ours. They just want to have 10s, LFR, and important guilds with the option to continue 25 for as long as they feel it worths it. What i want is different. Maybe i can find it in a game that 10s exist, but they are not called "raids". |
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My opinion, 10 people isnt a raid.
raid [reyd] noun 1. a sudden assault or attack, as upon something to be seized or suppressed: a police raid on a gambling ring. 2. Military . a sudden attack on the enemy, as by air or by a small land force. 3. a vigorous, large-scale effort to lure away a competitor's employees, members, etc. 4. Finance . a concerted attempt of speculators to force stock prices down. Note how all seem to refere to a large number of people, military being the best example, on d-day, it wasn't 10 people raiding the beach. It seems the meaning of a raid has been forgotten in its entirety in WoW. please answer, upon the release of wow, what was the smallest raid? |
Nor was it 25. Point? Also there's 2 references in the description towards size, one being the word "small" the other being the word "large". Like... gratz on semantics? |
"I don't encounter the situation you mention, therefore this situation doesn't exist" There are realms out there with 0 25man guilds. My realm has 2 only. You don't know what "realm dying" means. And probably neither do I |
I tell you what "realm dying means" : http://wow.realmpop.com/eu.html If it has population of "sporeggar", it is dead. DMF jas 6 times more players than Sporeggar. So no, his realm is not dying. It's just medium popped. Eonar has more players than Sporregar and DMF combined, or close. From Wowprogress : Sporeggar has 1 guild killed Madness HC. 0 ranked 25 man guilds. DMF : 3 guilds killed madness HC - On top 20 - 1 ranked 25 man guild. Eonar : 6 guilds have killed madness hc, on top 20 1 ranked 25 man guild. Then lets see Outland. has more players than those 3 realms combined : 32 guilsd have killed madness HC, 3 ranked 25 man guilds amongst them. handful of the 32, used to be 25 man guilds least prior to DS. Even, when supported by massive population, survival of 25 mans is based only on enthusiasm and traditions. Suuuuuure there isn't any problem with realm populations, 25 man raiding and this game in general. |
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I'm actually missing the old 10/25 content difference simply because they didn't share lockout, i could raid with my main and still do 10 mans for fun with friends or a pug. Esp ICC was really enjoyable since i liked the difference in itemlvl (10/25). I'm a casual player now and i would be perfectly fine with giving 25 man guilds a bit better loot...
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Edited by Lorac on 30/05/12 00:59 (BST)
10 mans used to be "End game dungeons" in Vanilla. Fact 10 mans were introduced as more casual raids with TBC XPac. Fact Every change made from the begining of the game till today was to the benefit of 10 man at the expence of the larger format. Fact. This brought raiding to a dead end and a mess, that only by reintroducing the raiding model, bringing something fresh on the table that is not 10 and not 25 we can have a way out off. 10vs25 should die. 10 and 25 should die, they re just 2 stupid numbers that especially during cataclysm divided the raiding community during a time that the "attack" of cross realm automated tools, a community united and strong is needed more than ever! |
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Edited by Azriyel on 30/05/12 06:23 (BST)
Can we please stop referring to 10 mans as raids? It feels disrespectful to raiders False. They had 10 man cap, but was to do so since 5 man format (questing) in them was considered what we know nowadays as "heroic". It is whole different from concept of "10 man raiding" we have from wotlk. Same way you can actually form a raid and access deadmines. With TBC/WoTLK and cataclsym the cap's have been altered since the dungeons no longer contain the previous difficulties. Also there was nothing casual in Zul Aman. It was not introduced as casual raiding, it was introduced as instance to guilds that couldn't access 25 man raids. Again your basis of argumentation is flawed. And karazhan wasn't there for casual raiding. It was entry level raid that did not fit to 25 man format. You see if you play the time the events happen, you might recall them as they are. While I dislike 10 man raiding with passion. I also try to maintain cool head in those discussions. None of your facts are facts, but your opinions. Blizzard did not plan to make 10 mans take over. Since from vanilla small formats had co-existed. But it was the greed and whining in WoTLK that made Blizzard try to please the players, who were so obsessed about achievements and couldn't tolerate some players have access to more achievements trough 25 man raiding. Loot unlikely ever was an issue. Since from vanilla and TBC it never caused problems. And what changed in wotlk ? Achievements. |
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Edited by Lorac on 30/05/12 10:16 (BST)
Casual=Easy?
I don't think so. Casual to me is something easily accessible. Karazhan was not easy, i remember seasoned raiders celebrating their first kill against Curator and i was still 65ish smt. ZA was definately not easy especially with T4 gear only that i did it. Still the group was formed in an easy semi organized manner and the reset was twice a week. As for the other end of your remark. Ask yourself, "why they could not access 25 man content?" Because the system was problematic in TBC only in a different way than it is today, and because of limited time invested by many. I never did the 10 man versions of Strat, Scholo, since i wasnt playing so i have no clue if the 10 man or the 5 man version was tougher. Thank you for the clarification. Still, you wanna say that they were called "raids", or that they were virtually non existent? Basically Azriyel, i remember you and Marizza putting down my posts regarding the problem of 25s, in May - June 2011, but back then you had the "shape up or do 10s" aproach pretty much. Still there are some people that come here to support this aproach. And then, it was your turn to see that it was not "the unworthy" that have fallen, when the "25s are dying", $hitstorm visited your guild. It was a problem with the Cataclysm raiding model after all eh? Blizzard is a company that had a vision. They wanted raids to be large scale encounters and they moved to that direction in Vanilla. Then they wanted to add more tactical aproach to raiding and deal with the logistical nightmare that a 40 man was creating, so they moved to 25. There they had a combination of brilliant content and bad aproach to raids. They placed a magnificent 10 man raid, Karazhan at the start of the entry tier. Then they totally forgot 10 mans and kept going with 25s only. I ended up attuning people by the hundreds and then gearing them up only to jump to others guilds doing tier 5 content before we reach "critical 25" As i said 10/25 was never a good system. You could not join raids later, with a newly created guild, and make the jump from 10 to 25, as a team. The "odd" 25 was preventing it, and the fact that there was not a tier 5 10, didn't help either. Those extra 5, turning into extra 8-9 and then 4-5 again! It was so annoying! You can't even imagine how annoying it was! And your last paragraph...you may as well erase it. 10 mans taking over is the only reasonable thing to happen when you dont put a barrier to where things stop. But accessibility to raid content became Blizzard's obsession since Sunwell! And when you have 2 sizes, one small and one big sharing content at start and everything later, and accesibility is your first concern, in a content that it was designed to be prestigious and exclusive (raiding, the so - called end game), what do you expect? And that has nothing to do with people greediness. Blizzard took the decisions that has set things in motion in Wrath. Blizzard gave people the idea of what is about to come with the 30% nerf just before Wrath was about to come. Do you recall any comblain from that time for any other thing but attunements and guild gating(the fact that this system were creating T4, T5, T6 and T6,5 guilds, in a semi artificial manner)? Do you recall comblains for "not experiencing sunwell" to a degree that justify the 180 degree turn, that blizzard took at summer 2008, just before Wrath? THEY made the decision, and what followed it should have been anticipated! In fact, i dare say that both what happened in Wrath and Cataclysm was anticipated to a degree and aimed for to a degree. So, instead of blaming people greediness start seeing the big picture for a change, because certain people that run the ropes, INVESTED in it! |
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Edited by Lorac on 30/05/12 09:29 (BST)
Basically they need to redefine raiding.
But once again it seems that the priority is about shifting the game to a direction that it is not "all about raiding". While this is a noble task and i am fully behind it, there are 2 things that are worrying me. 1) Raiding model IS a mess that NEEDS fixing no matter if you wanna shift the focus a bit from it. 2) Alternatives to raiding, include "pet battles", and "farm cultivation". What future will bring? If i am around i will see i guess... |
