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Edited by Nakatoir on 16/02/12 12:53 (UTC)
While reading the PVP forums, as well as the usual symptoms of burning stinging pain in my eyes, I also noticed an entire lack of ability in the case of reasoned arguing. While gouging my eyes out is a viable solution, I decided to write this guide on how to discuss balance properly. Hopefully a friendly mod will sticky this and ban everyone who ignores it, and I can use my spoons for less painful more pudding related items.
Current average balance thread. <snip> For those of you who don't want to experience the symptoms of blinding, nosebleeds, and your brain physically trying to escape from your skull, here's a summary. <snip> As you can see, this act actually does the opposite of helping the discussion, and such balance threads aren't the way this kind of thing is supposed to be discussed. So How are we supposed to discuss balance? 1: Statistics and proof. Statistics and proof are the cornerstones of all good discussion and argument, and are required for your balance thread to have any kind of meaning. Resources such as Arenastats.com and wowhead.com are great for this, however personal experience (With proper proof, screenshots for instance) although are lower in value, are also useful. Theorycrafting should be taken with a pinch of salt, however math based solutions are useful in certain situations, espeically in explaining personal experience. In terms of ranking: Arenastats > wowhead > personal experiance > Theorycrafting. 2: Understanding the statistics. As the saying goes, there are three kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies, and statistics. It is very easy to make mistakes in applying the information. 3: Stats are relational: Lets take for instance Paladins and arena stats. Arena stats show that the most played class at a high level (Well 2200, it nose dives at 2400) is the Paladin. Does that make it overpowered? Not on its own. You see, while paladins make up a large section of the high level playerbase, they are also the most played class. That in itself doesn't make a class OP, certain classes are more popular for none power related reasons. Generally the number of a class doing well in arena should roughly match the number of players who use said class. Numbers in themselves don't mean anything, it's the entire picture + numbers that means things. 4: A single stat is only part of the picture. Lets make another example. In this imaginary scenario, both warlocks and Rogues are over represented in relation to their overall population by 50% and 70% respectively. Nerf both of them right? Well.... What if 80% of Warlock teams at a high level also contain a Rogue? Is this a power issue, or a synergy one? Is the power of only one of the class pushing up the capability of the other, meaning that nerfing only one of the classes would be a power drop for both? Are neither of the classes OP individually, but together their abilities synergise so well that it creates a problem? Who knows, that's why you have the discussion. However going into the discussion with a 'NERF NOW PLX' is bad, very bad. Going into a discussion with 'please don't nerf me L2P' is also bad. 5: Theorycraft is bad, very bad. Although theorycraft is a good way to start a basic discussion, basing all your evidence on all but the most blatant errors is bad. Yes class X may theoretically be able to one shot people if they stack all 15 buffs, get the 0.0005% chance that it'll happen, whistle the themesong from Skyrim and voted for the Loony party in the last UK election (British politics, check them out, best political party ever :D), but balance discussions are designed to revolve around what actually happens, not what could happen. Real stats trump over theorycrafting any day of the week. Edited out some unpleasant language and links ~ Nakatoir |
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6: There is a difference between 'broken' and 'Overpowered'
Although you may consider these to be one and the same, and a class can be both Overpowered and Broken at the same time, these do not always come together. A overpowered character is one that if put against the other classes in the chosen format (3v3 Arena) against players of equal skill, in a 100 games they would win more then 50 times. A broken character is one that goes against general rules of fun and game design. One shots come under this or unintended design (DPS healing too much, survivable chars melting, etc etc) An Overpowered character can be perfectly reasonably designed, and a broken character (Lets say a character that can one shot people 0.00005% of the time) can be underpowered (For instance if during the rest of the time they do almost no damage.). Although both are issues, they are different issues, and must be treated as such. A recent example are the healing crits from Ret paladins. Although being able to heal that much as a DPS spec in a instant spell is broken, the overall stats of Paladins suggest they are under represented in PVP, and the overall class may be anything but overpowered. In such case suggestions should keep this in mind, suggesting replacement buffs to keep the correct powerlevel while moving away from the broken mechanic. 7: Skill level. You should always be aiming your balance around the top 1-5%, or the top 200 teams. While many people believe this to be wrong, thinking you should balance around the average player, this has its own issues. Even ignoring the possibility of removing any depth from your game, an average player might be stuck at average for many different reasons. One player might be average who still keyboard turns, but has excellent reaction times. Another player might have terrible positioning, yet great teamwork. Although both styles of play and their failings may make both players average, each one would need their own style of balancing. Balancing for a high level also makes countering a difficult fight more about personal improvement, and less about hoping your opponent sucks enough that the matchup is 'balanced'. That isn't to say that low skill level people can't join in the discussion, just they have to keep in mind that personal experience means far less for them then at the higher levels of play. 8: Suggesting changes. A common mistake when people suggest a change is to go overboard, something like this: We should delete abilities X and Y, ability Z should get a 500% nerf, oh and the class should punch the person using it in the face. The fact is, balance is a very delicate thing, and even a small minor change can cause large fluctuations in several classes (Even the ones not directly changed) and just spouting blanket 'NURF NAOOOOO!!!' changes does nothing to help the discussion. 9: Discussing balance: Fight the argument, not the arguer. The millisecond that you call a poster up only on none argument facts, is the millisecond that you lose. Sure you can insult a person (Whether how they argue or what class they play) as long as you do it in ADDITION to arguing the point. Ignoring hard arguments also makes you look like a wuss, so don't. 10: Know when to use the report button and ignore a troll. There comes a time in every argument when you meet someone so retarded/trolling, that you can't really win unless someone figures out a way to transfer punches over the internet. At this point it's better to just state that you have to agree to disagree (On matters that are opinionated) or just call the idiot a troll and ignore him. Derailing a thread responding to trolls that claim X spell does things that are mathematically impossible helps nobody. Having said that, calling everyone who disagrees with you a troll is bad. Very bad. See the above comment about being a wuss. And that's everything for now. If you have anything else to add, or just want to tell me how much you want my babies.... well that's what forums are for. |
Not so much your babies as I want YOU! ... above a fire ... sizzling ... MMMM! |
Ok...... I'm backing away now..... *welds pudding covered spoon defensively* |
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Edited by Nakatoir on 16/02/12 13:10 (UTC)
Some very nice points on how to ensure a constructive and helpful thread that also shows people how to give the kind of feedback that we are looking for, Divinesteak. Posting in a constructive manner is incredibly helpful to the forums and makes for great discussions. I will now be sticking this thread to the forums, excuse me a moment while I get some glue. *rummages about in the draws*
Oh, and please note that it is never OK to insult, flame, troll, abuse or degrade a person even if it is in addition to making a point. If you follow the Code of Conduct and Forum guidelines and also think about the 10 points mentioned here, I am sure that a lot of epic feedback will come from you all :) Editing to BOLD text :O ~ Nakatoir |
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16/02/2012
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Really good post! :)
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Sweet come back from work and find my post stickied and a blue post :D
Yea to expand a little, always keep in mind the forums/the rules of where ever you are posting your balance thread. Although some places are over the top (the SWTOR forums come to mind, that places moderating team is like using a flame thrower to prune a hedge), generally just keep everything you say to basic decency. The post was more referencing stuff like noob, terribad, calling people out on the class they play. Although you may disagree with someones debating style, is doesn't (on its own) defeat their argument. Might go through the post again and clear out a few mistakes. Wasn't expecting it to get stickied (The reference to that and banning everyone was a joke :D) so although some effort as put into it, was expecting it to get pushed into obscurity by the 'class X is op fix nao' posts. |
Oh, and please note that it is never OK to insult, flame, troll, abuse or degrade a person even if it is in addition to making a point. If you follow the Code of Conduct and Forum guidelines and also think about the 10 points mentioned here, I am sure that a lot of epic feedback will come from you all :) Yeah Divinesteak, maybe now that it's become an officially respectable thread you should edit point 9 :P |
3: Stats are relational: I'm going to take the Paladin example just like you did. Skillcaps come into the picture here, as alot of people know Paladins aren't the hardest class to play and it's very easy to get 2200 as one due to our very limited to our very few tools we have, we don't have tremor totmes, sw:d to break CC. If we had these you would see alot more high rated Paladins as we could actually play at a decent rating. It's quite simple really, alot of people don't play prehaps Shamans, but those who do can easly get very high ratings so it looks like the whole Shaman community is very good at PvP. Right now for exmaple Paladins struggle alot against casters and comps like RLS / RMP are known to hardcounter Holy Paladins so our class isn't represented alot at 2400+(were good RLS / RMPs are, those who don't just mindlessly zerg one target). If neither RMP / RLS were so 'strong' you would see alot more Paladins in the top ladder and prehaps some Resto Druids aswell. |
3: Stats are relational: I think you're missing the point. I hope this helps: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/correlation.png |
Although what you say might or might not be true (No idea, need to look more indepth at the stats), you are kinda missing the point. The point wasn't to say that paladins are OP/UP, but that individual stats don't mean anything on their own. Although your discussion is valid, it's discussion about a different thing (You're discussing why the stats might be as they are, and how to possibly fix them (nerf RMP/RLS)). You could be right that it's less that paladins are underpowered and more that their natural counters are OP. The point made on number 3 also applies to using a single stat to claim something is UP. Just because a class is underrepresented in arena compared to their overall population don't on its own mean that a class is underpowered. A large range of stats (What's the flavour of the metagame, what teams are popular, is it a certain under powered spec on a hybrid class that is skewing the stats, is the class powerful but too hard to use to 100% capability for the current top 5%?) are needed for the discussion. Having said that, your post is how balance issues and the cause of stats SHOULD be discussed. |
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Edited by Mírion on 17/02/12 20:25 (UTC)
Although what you say might or might not be true (No idea, need to look more indepth at the stats), you are kinda missing the point. I'm not saying the class is OP nor UP either, I'm just saying that class limits and skill caps need be taken into consideration. For example Paladins don't have a very high skillcap, nor do you see them at high ratings becuse of the limits the class has, for example we don't have SW:D blinds / sheeps, we're stuck in alot of CC and can't assist our team, so RL rather play with a Shaman becuse of tremor, grounding, wind shear. This is a balance issue in my eyes, I haven't seen another holy paladin at 2400 MMR since S10, becuse the specc is so terrible. The stats you can find on arenastats.com can be used, but should not be used like "This spec has 3% rep, class must be underpowered". However you can use them like "This class has 3% rep, prehaps somethings wrong with the spec" and you can look at the classes with the highest rep Y and look, what do they have what X doesn't have? Why does X struggle against Y? Maybe it's the constant Fears and the fact that they don't have any breaks, HoTs, Shields?(Like the Paladin class for example). But I do agree with the main post, the QQ threads on this forums are terrible and this thread is good in that way. |
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We should make some bonus rule that you are allowed to insult trolls and people with too strong opinions
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Edited by Kagemane on 06/03/12 22:37 (UTC)
Some very nice points on how to ensure a constructive and helpful thread that also shows people how to give the kind of feedback that we are looking for, Divinesteak. Posting in a constructive manner is incredibly helpful to the forums and makes for great discussions. I will now be sticking this thread to the forums, excuse me a moment while I get some glue. *rummages about in the draws* And yada....yada yada....u fail to listen to the druid community with typhoon for 2 years,what you want?protest?(just an example here,there are other issues ofc). you want me to start posting pages/posts with constructive and beneficial ideas (there are all over the forums) which they have NO blue response/No game response,besides the "YEAH WE LIKE YOU DO GOOD POSTS",what is this Mockery?Please,do something or go shadow. P.s , we FEED You...You are on a diet! p.s 2 : maybe im trolling,but at least im not getting payed to do so! |
Some very nice points on how to ensure a constructive and helpful thread that also shows people how to give the kind of feedback that we are looking for, Divinesteak. Posting in a constructive manner is incredibly helpful to the forums and makes for great discussions. I will now be sticking this thread to the forums, excuse me a moment while I get some glue. *rummages about in the draws* Disrespectful and misinformed, you don't even understand how forums work. |
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OH please Enlighten me meister!
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How much of those constructive ideas have constructive critic applied to them? Even if its devils advocate kind of critic? The issue with ideas on most of the class forums is if you ask for balance ideas from 10 Druids, 10/10 of those ideas will be Druid buffs. For a idea to be taken seriously, it must also be constructively argued against. However that never really happens, instead one person makes a 'constructive' critic, someone disagrees with it, then everyone starts waving their dick around. |
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Even with a blue tag and sticky this thread has just 700 or so views and about 5 or so unique replies haha. Clearly shows no one is interested in it. Hell i didn't even read the OP.
Why bother about something which will bear no fruits? I (and many others) made many good posts on the US Damaging dealing forums and EU PvP forums regarding Balance. Nothing ever came out of those. |
