Savage roar in mop

85 Night Elf Druid
7130
I have to say I like how feral finishers are now. You can choose which one fits for every situation and you don't 'have to use one' before you can choose what to do next.

This change might be a lot more bearable if they remove SR from enrage table, but if they don't it will be a horrible step backwards seeing hunter's, druids and rogues seem to keep their spammable dispels.
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90 Tauren Druid
17150
Med, do you want to try replying to some of the pertinent points that I bought up rather than having an argument with Droni?
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90 Night Elf Druid
12105
21/02/2012 09:21Posted by Cantor
Med, do you want to try replying to some of the pertinent points that I bought up rather than having an argument with Droni?

I will if you can make it less clustered so it's easier to read :P
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90 Tauren Druid
17150
Done diddly. I don't think you can justify SR going back to the Wrath model without reverting to "it'll keep the bads out of my spec, the Feral rotation's too easy now" – well I'm not a baddy, I've been playing the spec longer than most people on this forum have been playing the game, and I do not want this change to go through.
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90 Tauren Druid
17210
Atleast we can spec into disentaglement and annoy people 24/7 again.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12105
20/02/2012 00:14Posted by Cantor
Rogues generate more CPs than Ferals

This has always been the case as they don't use DoTs.
Ferals are in use of DoTs which fills in the missing CPs which you would need as if you were a rogue, but rogues and ferals use two kinds of class mechanics so comparing them to oneanother isn't ideal.

20/02/2012 00:14Posted by Cantor
and makes the spec generally rather more punishing to play.

The feral spec has always been one of the hardest - if not THE hardest - spec to play throughout the entire game.
It's always been punishing no matter how you look at it.
Even now, forget one thing or miss your timing with something and you're punished with a severe DPS lost.

20/02/2012 00:14Posted by Cantor
on an AoE pack, you've got to waste 65 energy to get SR up before you start AoEing

When it comes to raiding, so few bosses actually have intense AoE fights, last one was maloriak (Not taking DS into account as i haven't been there) and all you did was multi DoT.
You're not going to be AoE'ing in a single target dps fight which 99% of the boss battles are.

20/02/2012 12:01Posted by Cantor
this doesn't increase the Feral skillcap at all

Thats were you're wrong, lots of ferals are still not managing to play the spec properly even after playing it for so long. The skillcap is there and in MoP it's going to be increased to a good height.
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90 Tauren Druid
TnT
6155
I also agree this change for MoP is the wrong direction. If it will go live we have to watch that our bleedings are running and savage roar is up. In PvP scenarios it is already difficult to check if bleedings are up and watch for other stuff like cc the healer or using defensive abilities or heal your mate or what ever. I think the druid is difficult enough and will be more difficult in the MoP with all the new cc stuff.

For example A rogue don't need to put 2 debuffs and one buff to maximize shred or backstab.
We cannot easily swap to other enemies and nuke them down. Except we get sth like glyph of bloodswapping to get all debuffs of one enemy to another like the op warlocks:).
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23/02/2012 15:50Posted by Krowus
In PvP scenarios it is already difficult to check if bleedings are up


That's more of an interface issue than a druid issue.
Difficulty should not be in gathering or displaying the information at your disposal. Difficulty should be in using that information in the best possible way.

The default UI is -not- well suited for feral DPS; Use addons.

~Vaeil
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90 Night Elf Druid
12105
23/02/2012 22:53Posted by Lylise
The default UI is -not- well suited for feral DPS; Use addons.

Pretty much this really...
Besides, the "difficulty" is more than welcome, will be easy to see the difference from a bad and a good feral then.
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90 Tauren Druid
17150
This has always been the case as they don't use DoTs.
Ferals are in use of DoTs which fills in the missing CPs which you would need as if you were a rogue, but rogues and ferals use two kinds of class mechanics so comparing them to oneanother isn't ideal.

We certainly don't use the same kind of class mechanics as Rogues do - that doesn't make it any less punishing to have to waste those points on a buff that we shouldn't require to perform in certain situations. Having to maintain that buff the whole time you're in Cat is frustrating and pointless, particularly in the situations I've described.

The feral spec has always been one of the hardest - if not THE hardest - spec to play throughout the entire game.
It's always been punishing no matter how you look at it.
Even now, forget one thing or miss your timing with something and you're punished with a severe DPS lost.

23/02/2012 00:08Posted by Medeyah
Thats were you're wrong, lots of ferals are still not managing to play the spec properly even after playing it for so long. The skillcap is there and in MoP it's going to be increased to a good height.

That's true; that doesn't mean we need to make the barrier to entry so high that it just makes people annoyed and want to play a different spec. People these days are failing to play ARCANE MAGES – you're going to find bad players in every spec. I've had it up to here with people claiming that Feral is THE tough spec to play and anything that threatens that complexity can't even be considered.

23/02/2012 00:08Posted by Medeyah
on an AoE pack, you've got to waste 65 energy to get SR up before you start AoEing

When it comes to raiding, so few bosses actually have intense AoE fights, last one was maloriak (Not taking DS into account as i haven't been there) and all you did was multi DoT.
You're not going to be AoE'ing in a single target dps fight which 99% of the boss battles are.[/quote]
You're wrong; in T11 we had Maloriak, Halfus and Sinestra (and Sinestra was accompanied by downtime prior to killing the adds, which meant your Roar would likely drop off before you get on to them). In T12 we had Beth, Rhyolith (although it was principally ranged DPS that took care of these) and Ragnaros. In T13 we've got Yor'sahj, Spine and Madness. That's 3 in each tier of raiding – that's 23% of T11, 43% of T12 and 38% of T13, including the 2 toughest bosses.

Besides, the "difficulty" is more than welcome, will be easy to see the difference from a bad and a good feral then.

I still disagree with you Med; it is very easy to see the bad/good difference, as it is with any spec, although it's exacerbated for Feral; bad Ferals don't use OoC procs for Shred; they spam Mangle; they don't maintain their bleeds; they let SR fall off. This is just going to make that gap bigger, but the gap is already significant and doesn't need to grow at all.

-----

I think the AoE part is my biggest gripe. It's silly, especially when you have downtime before AoEing.
Edited by Cantor on 24/02/2012 12:24 GMT
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90 Night Elf Druid
10500
19/02/2012 15:03Posted by Droni
its a back step because bliz already decided it was bad to work like that and changed it.


Bliz opted out of it to try and make Feral easier in PvP. Great job since all we heard ever since was "Nerf Ferals...had enough of this OP !@#$". But given most old school ferals wanted this change reverted and put some skill back in and I think you'll struggle to find too many feral players beyond the FOTM re-rollers in Cata who would not like to see SR become a bigger priority again and make the playstyle more complicated again.
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90 Tauren Druid
17150
24/02/2012 13:02Posted by Atheriel
its a back step because bliz already decided it was bad to work like that and changed it.


Bliz opted out of it to try and make Feral easier in PvP. Great job since all we heard ever since was "Nerf Ferals...had enough of this OP !@#$". But given most old school ferals wanted this change reverted and put some skill back in and I think you'll struggle to find too many feral players beyond the FOTM re-rollers in Cata who would not like to see SR become a bigger priority again and make the playstyle more complicated again.

*cough*

*points at self* I'm a long-time Feral (since launch) and a heroic raider, and I don't like this change. It just makes Roar into a 'keep this up or you'll do 30% less damage' – that's not a choice, that's stupidity. Currently in AoE situations and PvP, you don't need to use Roar as it just buffs autoattacks, the same as SnD for Rogues; with this change, all that is added is an annoyance, requiring you to maintain the buff at all times, rather than saying 'ok, I don't need Roar here as the energy would be better spent on Swipe/Shred/whatever'. It makes it into a mindless button again.

The PvP whines are semi-justified because Bear is so powerful in PvP (although it still doesn't mitigate as well as the other tank specs); however, that will be solved in Mists with the spec-split.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12105
24/02/2012 12:22Posted by Cantor
People these days are failing to play ARCANE MAGES

If people fail this badly - and i know they do sadly... - then it's' their own fault for not being able to play the game properly and having insane learn to play issues, it's not the game's or the incomming change's fault.

24/02/2012 13:15Posted by Cantor
PvP, you don't need to use Roar as it just buffs autoattacks

Partialy wrong and right...
It's true that it only buffs auto-attack damage.
But in a PvP enviroment thats going to be your CP burner if you can't afford doing anything else; Aka, rip is up and running, biting is pointless, stun is not ideal and you need to do something that has to do with your insta-cast proc.
Besides, hard casting ftw :3

24/02/2012 13:15Posted by Cantor
I'm a long-time Feral (since launch) and a heroic raider

Speaking as an old time raider, then this change won't be an issue as the duty of a heroic raider is to learn their spec/mechanics in order to deliever a good performance within raids.
A heroic raider shouldn't complain...
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85 Goblin Mage
6830
WHAT?

If I am dps (cat spec) I no longer have Bear shapeshift on my druid????

In the same manner, will Blood DK also lose Frost and Unholy presence?

And the same to Warriors. Will Prot Warrios no longer have Fury and Battle stance?

If DK and Warrior in MoP will still have access to all presence / stances I really do not understand why should Cat spec druid lose Bear shapeshift?

That is stupid and bad game design!



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85 Night Elf Druid
2245
WHAT?

If I am dps (cat spec) I no longer have Bear shapeshift on my druid????

In the same manner, will Blood DK also lose Frost and Unholy presence?

And the same to Warriors. Will Prot Warrios no longer have Fury and Battle stance?

If DK and Warrior in MoP will still have access to all presence / stances I really do not understand why should Cat spec druid lose Bear shapeshift?

That is stupid and bad game design!


You will still have Bear form shapeshift but if spec'd for Cat u will most likely never use it because things like Feral charge Cat / bear is now both 15 seconds cooldown (could still use bear charge for the root effect).

Bash and Demoralizing roar are now talents and can be used in all shapeshift forms and we don't get Frenzied regen unless Guardian spec. Bear form looks pretty much as usefull in Mists of pandaria as an arms warrior's Defensive stance in Cataclysm. I hope atleast Rejuve / healing touch are worth casting.

Having to use Savage roar will be not as bad as it was in Wotlk i think if they keep it at 22 seconds for 1 cp...was like 9 or 12 seconds for 1 cp in Wotlk think.
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