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I've just started reading A Song of Ice and Fire
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As the title says; I've just started Game of Thrones. It's good, I'm enjoying it rather a lot, as I did the series.
However, I have one significant question: WHY IN GODS NAME WOULD ANYONE WANT TO RP THIS WORLD? It's miserable! I mean, seriously! I get that rampaging armies of the undead, elemental invasions, dragons levelling the countryside and stuff is bad; but at least we're clean! This is a world where you're likely to freeze to death before you're twelve, where selling girl-children into marriage (or, indeed, carnal servitude) is a day-to-day, and the closest thing to 'justice' is knowing that the man who arbitrarily sentences you to death might be old-fashioned and superstitious enough to swing the weapon himself. Crippled children, people being ran down on horseback for daring to see a prince embarrass himself, people walking around spelling their name 'Robb'...it's all just too awful to bear! Give me a horde of Scourge tearing my family apart, any day. On a more serious note: it's a commonly raised question in aesthetics - why do we find being scared/saddened/appalled by art (cinema, literature and the like) pleasing to us? Do people enjoy acting out the hardships and misery of this more grimdark of settings (word used without condemnation)? |
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Edited by Savonyth on 22/02/12 15:59 (UTC)
I can't understand why people would want to RP specifically in the ASOIAF setting specifically, since it's not exactly High Fantasy, is it? It's just a load of humans whom have very similar customs/ways of life to England in the middle ages.
But, to answer your question, art and RP (which is arguably an art form in itself) are often used by people to project their innermost feelings, many of which, due to our human nature and/or experiences/way of thinking are dark and disturbing. I'm not talking of what's commonly known as 'vent-art- in the sense of characters that are shameless self-inserts (i.ie, exactly the same as the player behind the screen but simply more awesome/badass/speshul/pretty etc), but more in the sense that, RP most certainly -can- be used as a form of self-expression, and many people simply connect with the darker elements of life, because, in my opinion at least, human nature holds some inescapbale and inherently darker features. |
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Edited by Taevyn on 22/02/12 16:02 (UTC)
It's an enjoyable read, though it's largely been butchered for me by being able to guess what happens next thanks to the copy and pasted plot-lines and extreme similarities between particular character concepts in the game itself and the canon characters in ASOIAF.
All in all, I have no issue with a bit of gritty despair in the setting we play in. Whilst it may be more light hearted by comparison, pretty much every race has endured severe torment and many of the themes - particularly the stuff involving the Burning Legion, Scourge and the Old Gods - are pretty terrifying if one thinks deeply enough on them. My main gripe is the abundance of human role-players and human centric guilds employing gritty themes within their role-play with little or no acknowledgement of the other races in the setting. The blood elves have endured far much more grit and torment than the survivors of Lordaeron, for example - a fact conveniently overlooked IC and OOC. I'm also not fond of the habit of certain guilds and role-players acting as if magic and engineering aren't present in this setting. It is. |
On a more serious note: it's a commonly raised question in aesthetics - why do we find being scared/saddened/appalled by art (cinema, literature and the like) pleasing to us? Yes. In general, popular culture took a strong turn towards "darker" themes somewhere in the beginning of last decade - or maybe already in the end of 90s. You can see it in superheroes becoming dark and grim and brooding. Fiction has become more psychological, everything overshadowed by dark overtones. Simple, honest, good-hearted themes don't hold an appeal to the majority of consumers, even when these themes would be played out in exciting fashion. They want complex settings, contradicted themes, dirt, decadence, blood, scandal, broken taboos. Heroes can't be heroes anymore - they must have revolting flaws, dark secrets, hidden scandals, or at very least a psychological disorder to make them interesting. It's a noteworthy part of the current Zeitgeist. It seems that George Martin has nailed something in his books by offering people realism (albeit in somewhat edged-up and highlighted form) in a fantasy world. |
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FIFTY PAGES AND POPULAR THREADS HERE WE COME.
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A question discussed and debated by Elementary School students as well as by University Doctorate holders. It seems to me thus far, that human beings enjoy dealing with fear or sadness "experimentally" whilst in actually safe conditions. Stories [like roller coasters] can give us the illusion of fear and danger, when we are actually perfectly safe. As such, we get the adrenaline and "high" of the danger, without having the actual danger. This experimenting could be a useful survival trait - practice so that you don't seize up during actual danger or sorrow or fear. Useful survival trait would suggest that those that do "pretend" danger and experiment with safe fear or sorrow, have a better chance to perpetuate their genes, and so on down the evolutinary line, leading to many humans enjoying such experiments. Safely. For fun [as far as they know]. |
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/dead horse
/beat |
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Simple, honest, good-hearted themes don't hold an appeal to the majority of consumers, even when these themes would be played out in exciting fashion. They want complex settings, contradicted themes, dirt, decadence, blood, scandal, broken taboos. Heroes can't be heroes anymore - they must have revolting flaws, dark secrets, hidden scandals, or at very least a psychological disorder to make them interesting. It's a noteworthy part of the current Zeitgeist. I personally connect better with a character that has flaws and the golden age super heroes is just something I have trouble to get into the mind of. That in turn makes a flawed good character's or bright grey character's victories feel much stronger and personal. To me it feels like Batman deserves his victories more than super man does, because Batman had to work harder for them. It is the same with a Song of Ice and Fire, I keep reading it because I want the "good" characters, mostly the Starks, to be victorious, and when that doesn't happen I keep reading because I want them to have retribution. Perhaps it is a bit self-destructive, but I'm hoping that at least one of the characters of whiter morality is going to win at the end (whether that is a personal victory or win the game of thrones doesn't really matter though) |
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Bebbix hit the nail on the head, in that it's a setting with flawed, multi-layered characters, and a world with consequences for actions. I consider role-play without consequence to be pretty meaningless, and I'd love to role-play in ASOIAF's setting. I don't necessarily want high fantasy, I want depth, and a degree of recognisable realism amidst all the magic and dragons.
That said, I don't think the setting should just be superimposed on wow for role-play. They are not the same, and I think if one tries hard enough, one can mine plenty of serious characterisation and drama from WoW's existing lore, the Kaldorei fighting to avoid extinction in their own lands, for example, after having just had a cataclysm ravage their homeland. That's pretty grim stuff. |
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I wouldn't consider ASOIAF all that realistic. There's an absence of fantasy and magic to some extent, but we're still dealing with the same select few characters overcoming near impossible odds on numerous occasions. This doesn't make it bad, don't get me wrong - but it still employs many of the plot devices WoW is criticised for wielding.
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Bebbix hit the nail on the head, in that it's a setting with flawed, multi-layered characters, and a world with consequences for actions. I consider role-play without consequence to be pretty meaningless, and I'd love to role-play in ASOIAF's setting. I don't necessarily want high fantasy, I want depth, and a degree of recognisable realism amidst all the magic and dragons. This is what i prefer about roleplay as well. |
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Edited by Fyne on 22/02/12 17:42 (UTC)
Of note, perhaps, the strength of the Warcraft setting is also its weakness in this regard: a deliberate pastiche setting, it certainly includes elements of gritty realism, of horror, and of high drama. It also includes elements of comedy, of high fantasy, and of melodrama. It is deliberately inclusive.
Strength? Most story styles can easily fit without needing to step outside the setting. Weakness? You won't find only the one style of story supported in the setting, and will in passing see other styles as well. For those who enjoy the "grim" settings akin to Warhammer Fantasy Role Play, you can certainly find that style in WoW. It won't be the ONLY style, but you certainly can find it, without needing to switch your setting for WFRP. Those stories of flawed, multi-layered characters certainly exist in this setting - but so do stories of cartoonish heroes and villains. Side by each. |
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Brienne of Tarth - the first warrior-maid I've ever found in years of reading fantasy who actually looks like a warrior maid; as in big, muscularly disproportionate and shading into plain ugly, as opposed to a Boris Vallejo pinup who somehow deflects weapons with a chain mail bikini and a disproportionate, erm, chest.
If you want to roleplay in that kind of world, she has to be its posterchild - you can be a big strong hero, if you're willing to look like a pink orc and not a supermodel with perfect teeth. Otherwise, calm down and carry on riding dragons and hitting people with swords that it'd take two men to swing. You can be gritty and grim here, sure, but medieval realism (with its attendant mortality rates from disease, famine, lack of medical science and rather suspect attitudes towards women and sexual appropriateness) does not really belong here. |
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I'm halfway through A Game of Thrones and I thinks is good :D
" In the game of thrones, you win, or you die." |
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Edited by Paiamarandra on 22/02/12 18:09 (UTC)
In response to the OP:
Because compared to high fantasy stuff it presents a world that is a lot more like what feudal Europe was actually like. Though even then it doesn't quite get the complete crushing hopelessness of it right. |
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Are you reading the same series as me? Most of the consequences I see are: 'You're a generally nice character. Horrible things happen to you.' |
