World of Warcraft

[DISCLAIMER] I play a rogue and personally feel they are OP in PvP, bland in PvE. Point made.
Ok. I saw a video the other day where Taugrim (ex-WoW player) came up with a theory behind fixing rogue-style classes in MMOs. I would like to elaborate on this, and feel that his idea, while somewhat undeveloped, was excellent.

In summary; Rogues should have a significantly greater role in stealth and Recuperate should be removed.

How this would be achieved is putting vanish on about a 40 sec cooldown (sharing a 10 sec ICD with stealth), in MoP there will be no reduction to this, but I'm thinking subtlety could reduce this by mastery(?). This would be balanced by a significant DPS decrease to a Rogue's in-combat damage (Combo builders) and a serious increase in utility and to a lesser extent damage from stealth. For example, here are some extremely poorly thought out ideas, so don't quote them but to give an idea...

1. Ambush - damage increase. No adverse effect, just good burst that would work well with say shadow dance (ShD would require a slight redesign or a longer CD to make this balanced)
2. Garrote - also the same as usual with a possible talent to add a debuff to the target that would increase bleed damage taken (or some adverse effect here or there)
3. Waylay - new move derived from the talent. Employs a snare, slight damage over time and interrupts the target.
4. Cheap Shot - decreases target's accuracy by a short time after the stun ends.
5. Burden - Reduces damage done by the target by 10% for 15secs. (Includes bosses - add utility for heavy incoming dmg phases) Long CD.
6. Swift End - Requires 5 Combo Points. Deals [Massive] damage to an enemy and stuns for 3 secs. Deals X amount of damage to targets permanently immune to stuns. Long CD.
7. Taunting slash - Deals light damage and forces the target to attack the rogue (usable with tricks), but causes the target to take an additional (6%?) damage from all sources for the next 20 secs. Works on bosses etc.

As you can see, I'm talking about heavy reliance on stealth for utility, openers, CP builders and potentially finishers. Makes the rogue feel more rogue-y, relying on tricks and stealth to destroy foes and increasing the rogue's ability to aid his allies.

Now, I'm not very well, lending to the fact that I can spend as long as I did working this out, so my ideas are most likely flawed, but positive feedback and constructive criticism. If you agree, say so, and if you don't explain how this could be aided.

This is mostly to fix my qualms with Rogues to be sleep inducing in PvE and the OP'ness in PvP. I feel that with a rogue's main role being aiding team mates and eliminating sensitive targets with attacks on long CDs, this could be achieved.

But what if we think Rogues are fine as they are?

They're in a good place imo, not overpowered, not underpowered.

Granted i haven't arena'd on my Rogue since S7 or so, i rerolled DK (inb4 trolling)

Rogues are topping PvE (with daggers, admittedly) but are still very strong without. Rogues are the alpha-class of PvP too. Good place is not how I'd describe it. I agree, the idea doesn't suit everyone, but it's balanced and gives the rogue-ish feel back to a class that now relies thoroughly on a move that doesn't fit the idea of a ninja very well at all (Procuperate).

Why don't you post on your rogue then i can take a good look at it.

19/02/2012 17:24Posted by Søck

Rogues are topping PvE (with daggers, admittedly) but are still very strong without. Rogues are the alpha-class of PvP too. Good place is not how I'd describe it. I agree, the idea doesn't suit everyone, but it's balanced and gives the rogue-ish feel back to a class that now relies thoroughly on a move that doesn't fit the idea of a ninja very well at all (Procuperate).

Incorrect & incorrect: http://simulationcraft.org/432/Raid_T13H.html

Simcraft for BiS of every class, combat is 7th, behind 2 mage specs, demo lock, mm hunter, arms warrior.

PvP: http://www.arenastats.com/

Results vary on ratings naturally, but using 2k as the cutoff, rogues aren't top at all.

So if you aren't getting your information from actual facts, where are you getting them from?

In a timeless nutshell, Rogues are fine l2p.

I have 379 ilvl, I don't do anything besides Raid finder and BGs, I've since lost interest in the character since my arena partner stopped playing and PvE is dull. I'm not posting on him so people can say; 'Well. You aren't in full PvE BiS with daggers, aren't min-maxing effectively, miss enchants, don't have 3k Rating rank 1 this season. WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT?!'

I'm just going to say that rogues are unbalanced this season. They have felt decidedly un-roguish this expansion. I have heard on numerous occasions not only from myself that the class isn't as enjoyable as other melee and thought I'd take my relaxation time to propose changes that I would personally like to see. Seeing as this thread is being ignored for what it is and becoming a war of 'Don't nerf my class' I'm going to say this once.

This is not a nerf rogues thread. This is a thread that states that Rogues can be balanced without sacrificing what makes the class rogue-y. Improve burst / utility from stealth, but make the rogue CHOOSE. Remove lolcuperate, defeats the idea of the class. Emphasize stealth.

Don't like the idea? Propose a better solution, don't pick holes in mine because you think I'm doing something wrong. Blizzard has steered away from what made this class, focusing on recuperate to keep them alive in combat.

Oh well.

I have 379 ilvl, I don't do anything besides Raid finder and BGs, I've since lost interest in the character since my arena partner stopped playing and PvE is dull. I'm not posting on him so people can say; 'Well. You aren't in full PvE BiS with daggers, aren't min-maxing effectively, miss enchants, don't have 3k Rating rank 1 this season. WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT?!'

I'm just going to say that rogues are unbalanced this season. They have felt decidedly un-roguish this expansion. I have heard on numerous occasions not only from myself that the class isn't as enjoyable as other melee and thought I'd take my relaxation time to propose changes that I would personally like to see. Seeing as this thread is being ignored for what it is and becoming a war of 'Don't nerf my class' I'm going to say this once.

This is not a nerf rogues thread. This is a thread that states that Rogues can be balanced without sacrificing what makes the class rogue-y. Improve burst / utility from stealth, but make the rogue CHOOSE. Remove lolcuperate, defeats the idea of the class. Emphasize stealth.

Don't like the idea? Propose a better solution, don't pick holes in mine because you think I'm doing something wrong. Blizzard has steered away from what made this class, focusing on recuperate to keep them alive in combat.

Oh well.

I play a Rogue, and i don't think other melee classes are more fun, that point is therefore moot.

You say this is not a nerf thread, but it quite clearly is? as you keep saying "balance rogues" Y U NO UNDERSTAND THEY ARE ALREADY BALANCED, you cannot argue with statistics, somebody being killed by a rogue doesn't equate to rogues being overpowered, it's a sign that a good player, beat a worse player.

As i said, i think rogues are fine as they are, they don't need an overhaul, so why would i need to promote my own idea? You put an absurd rework of a class that's fine as it is, and didn't expect people to pick holes in it? welcome to earth.

19/02/2012 17:50Posted by Snezzy

I play a Rogue, and i don't think other melee classes are more fun, that point is therefore moot.

For clarity, i also play every other melee besides enhance shaman.

Rogues are topping PvE (with daggers, admittedly) but are still very strong without. Rogues are the alpha-class of PvP too. Good place is not how I'd describe it. I agree, the idea doesn't suit everyone, but it's balanced and gives the rogue-ish feel back to a class that now relies thoroughly on a move that doesn't fit the idea of a ninja very well at all (Procuperate).

Incorrect & incorrect: http://simulationcraft.org/432/Raid_T13H.html

Simcraft for BiS of every class, combat is 7th, behind 2 mage specs, demo lock, mm hunter, arms warrior.

PvP: http://www.arenastats.com/

Results vary on ratings naturally, but using 2k as the cutoff, rogues aren't top at all.

So if you aren't getting your information from actual facts, where are you getting them from?

In a timeless nutshell, Rogues are fine l2p.

1. Quoting off simcraft lolllllll, go to raidlogs or raidbots, where you'll see mages and rogues dominating.
2. This isn't a nerf rogues thread, I just feel that the class has strayed away from being the sneaky bugger, and simply focuses on the rogue being 'another melee guy'.
3. Please explain how the arena ladder doesn't prove my point. Rogues are represented so high because they are strong and have utility such as smoke bomb. This season, RLS is also the most popular comp AGAIN, followed by RMP. Rogues beat every class 1v1 this patch.

19/02/2012 17:52Posted by Søck

1. Quoting off simcraft lolllllll, go to raidlogs or raidbots, where you'll see mages and rogues dominating.

Can you not comprehend that raidlogs/bots derives it's data from PARSES, where a character of unknown skill & gear level competes with a character of unknown skill & gear level, it doesn't take into account complete 100% uptime on everything.

Where as simcraft is MAXIMUM THEORETICAL DPS, assuming everything is nailed, everything is BiS, which i thought this conversation was about?

If anything, i feel the rogue rotation is too easy, which leads to little to no mistakes being made, which leads to higher dps PARSES, same applies to mages.

19/02/2012 17:52Posted by Søck

3.

Y U GO BY CLASS REPRESENTATION & POPULATION?!

Everybody is aware of ferals being very "strong" for lack of a less overused word, yet their class representation is a mere 7%, and their win % is the most of any class, with 2 top comps in the top 3, whereas RLS is 9th, yes it's an extremely POPULAR comp, not only because of it being strong, but because they're amongst the most represented classes in arena right now, the numbers are diluted by the amount of RLS teams out there in comparison, but if RLS was too strong and unbeatable, they'd have a much higher win %, are you watching the NAO tourney? did you not see the ret/dk/shaman eat the RLS? you cannot say one team was superior either, they were both teams filled with players in the top 10 of their given class.

19/02/2012 17:52Posted by Søck

Rogues beat every class 1v1 this patch.

This is what it usually boils down to, isn't it?

I have met real warriors, where you have to struggle like hell to win. Until you reach a point where I can somewhat respect your time/effort spent playing the rogue class, I don't think these random ideas are going to be worth anything.

The MoP changes alone are MUCH more interesting than your idea to just buff openers and increase stealth up-time. They are also balanced by a professional team who realize that a much more accessible stealth will spell doom to any classes who try and fight through our survivability. Trust me, it's fine as it is.

1. Quoting off simcraft lolllllll, go to raidlogs or raidbots, where you'll see mages and rogues dominating.
2. This isn't a nerf rogues thread, I just feel that the class has strayed away from being the sneaky bugger, and simply focuses on the rogue being 'another melee guy'.
3. Please explain how the arena ladder doesn't prove my point. Rogues are represented so high because they are strong and have utility such as smoke bomb. This season, RLS is also the most popular comp AGAIN, followed by RMP. Rogues beat every class 1v1 this patch.

1. and what? your using other sites too? I'm looking at World of Logs and don't see this "Rogue PvE topping" you speak of. We top a few fights maybe 3/8 but that's not anything amazing. Fire mages are way more represented than us.

2. How is it? We Vanish and burst from stealth in a Shadow Dance. How does that make us not sneaky?

3. From that point of view I can easily call for Warlock synergy nerfs, Mage damage or Priests healing Synergy? no ....

To me it really sounds like you are just calling for rogue nerfs and trying to persuade yourself you are not.

You said you only do raid finder ... that might be the reason you see rogues dominating there. with Blade Flurry I can clear 70K DPS on quite alot of trash and pull MILES ahead on a stupid damage meter, but its bosses that count and rogues simply do not "Top everything" there.

19/02/2012 17:44Posted by Søck

They have felt decidedly un-roguish this expansion.

I for one sure haven't!

19/02/2012 18:15Posted by Zanaken

I have met real warriors, where you have to struggle like hell to win.

Interesting. Mind sharing some names?

swifty ofc lul

Lols :p

Guys, I don't want a rogue nerf. I want to play my Rogue, and I simply feel that you guys don't respect this change as you see it as a nerf, and I haven't helped the matter by responding with numbers that show otherwise. I'm not talking about a decrease in burst or survivability, I'm talking about improved abilities from stealth, abilities that improve the rogue's capabilities during the time out of stealth whilst taking away recuperate to improve upon the roguedom of previous expacs, instead of deviating from the norm with a focus on recuperate.

THIS IS NOT A ****ing nerf thread. I want the class to have a more active role in PvE instead of keeping rupture up, keeping SnD up and eviscerating in between. I want to maximize the role of DPS for all it's worth, making rogues have a more important role than just damage in PvE.

The only reason you guys are completely disregarding the idea (I'm not saying you would immediately fall in lust with it and have many babies with it if it were otherwise) is because YOU see it as a nerf, I would honestly see it as a reason to play my rogue more. Rogues have been given a band-aid (recup-joke) fix to a long lasting PvP problem because they were too weak out of stealth with out it.

I havn't even bothered to read it because the layout of your post is not inviting to read.
Too many hooks dots and commas while making weird sentences.

So to make me read it, what is it that you accually want?

Make it as short as posseble.

1. Quoting off simcraft lolllllll, go to raidlogs or raidbots, where you'll see mages and rogues dominating.
2. This isn't a nerf rogues thread, I just feel that the class has strayed away from being the sneaky bugger, and simply focuses on the rogue being 'another melee guy'.
3. Please explain how the arena ladder doesn't prove my point. Rogues are represented so high because they are strong and have utility such as smoke bomb. This season, RLS is also the most popular comp AGAIN, followed by RMP. Rogues beat every class 1v1 this patch.

1. and what? your using other sites too? I'm looking at World of Logs and don't see this "Rogue PvE topping" you speak of. We top a few fights maybe 3/8 but that's not anything amazing. Fire mages are way more represented than us.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25N/all/14/60/default/
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/60/default/

rogues are pretty much tanking meters atm in pve

19/02/2012 18:47Posted by Søck

Rogues have been given a band-aid (recup-joke) fix to a long lasting PvP problem because they were too weak out of stealth with out it.

I always forget to use recup in BGs and most of the time i'm roughly 9 kills 0 deaths depending on enemy team ofc.

So rogues aren't weak atall,

Less reliance on Recup.
More reliance on stealth.
Vanish 40 sec CD, reduced by sub mastery.
Better abilities from stealth, more of them too - with extra effects reducing enemy damage or increasing your own.
Speed up PvE gameplay, make rogue PvP less tanky and more stealthy.

Guess that's it.