World of Warcraft

Hi,

Those who are just about to call me by noob or anything else can immediately leave this thread because you will be simply ignored.

Where was I? I am rather PvPer and I love it. Raids were usually not for me. However, recently it seems that I need to start to raid. Perhaps I'll find it enjoying but now I feel like I need to; some reagents are available in raids if I don't want to spend all golds I have.

I have been said I am not qualified as a proper geared player to do raids with others. Is that really true? In requirements, it only says gear level average should be greater than 365. I think I match this very one criterium.

Please, if you don't mind you can explain reasons on that.

Thnx

PvP gear and PvE gear have very different stats on them. It's like trying to tank as a Druid with int/stam/spi gear on.

The ilvl requirements for PvE content are thought with the mindset of a group composed of people in PvE gear, with average budget enchants (meaning Hurricane instead of Power Torrent, +15stats instead of +20 etc) and gems, and just slightly better than basic knowledge of his class (ie not meleeing as a hunter, casting Fireball as a Fire mage and not Arcane Blast etc).

If you know the game pretty well, you can complete content with way lower than the requirements imposed by the game. I could argue that a full raid of ilvl329 (the requirement for 4.0 heroics) can complete LFR.

Now why is PvP gear considered bad? It's because stat budget for throuphput stats is spent on resilience. Resilience grants 0 dps and 0 survivability. Having 3000 resilience means you have 3000 less secondary stats than if you had same ilvl PvE gear, which can be argued is an immense performance hit.

The ilvl requirement is a "benchmark" set by Blizzard. But it is not what matters; your performance in the raid is what matters. And no ilvl or any other numerical value is enough to determine that (not even dps, but it is close enough a benchmark value for damage dealers)

Thanks for that.

Generally as DPS it is not a massive issue to be honest - the larger amount of primary stat on the top end PVP gear makes up for the loss of secondary stats to a degree. Where it really hurts is tanking (too little avoidance - most tanks types need that mastery/dodge/parry stack) and healing (again, you need loads of spirit, haste, crit). PVP tanks tend to be squishy (druid and DK are the least squishy of them in PVP gear), PVP healers tend to go OOM faster than they should.

A PVE geared player in the same ilvl will always outperform a PVP geared player when doing PVE - true. Just like a PVP geared player will outdo a PVE geared player at the same ilvl in PVP. But DPS can getaway with it and you can usually mix in some PVP gear with PVE and not have any trouble.

The problem comes from people buying a full set of blue pvp gear and jumping straight into raids, as Exiasee explained above the pve ilevel is wrong on pvp items due to resilience replacing dps stats. In terms of pve dps requirements, the pvp gear is about 30-40 ilevel too high and so it cheats the ilevel entry requirements for raids.

Someone in full ilevel400 pvp gear might be fine for normal raids, but someone in full ievel377 gear will likely fall behind the tanks in damage which may or may not hinder a groups progress depending on how many pvpers or even bad players join a raid.

The ilvl requirements for PvE content are thought with the mindset of a group composed of people in PvE gear, with average budget enchants (meaning Hurricane instead of Power Torrent, +15stats instead of +20 etc) and gems, and just slightly better than basic knowledge of his class (ie not meleeing as a hunter, casting Fireball as a Fire mage and not Arcane Blast etc).

If you know the game pretty well, you can complete content with way lower than the requirements imposed by the game. I could argue that a full raid of ilvl329 (the requirement for 4.0 heroics) can complete LFR.

Now why is PvP gear considered bad? It's because stat budget for throuphput stats is spent on resilience. Resilience grants 0 dps and 0 survivability. Having 3000 resilience means you have 3000 less secondary stats than if you had same ilvl PvE gear, which can be argued is an immense performance hit.

The ilvl requirement is a "benchmark" set by Blizzard. But it is not what matters; your performance in the raid is what matters. And no ilvl or any other numerical value is enough to determine that (not even dps, but it is close enough a benchmark value for damage dealers)

This sums it up quite well. With you having 4k resilence, you're missing out on 4k of important stats. Resi is completely useless in pve - so already a dps/healing loss. Also, not even mentioning resi, your hit cap will be WAY lower than what it should be, so you'd either need to reforge into it (as you cannot reforge out of resi, you will be losing even more important secondary stats), or leave it, which will also be a dps loss, due to you not being able to hit the boss 100% of the time.

If you want to raid, go farm dungeons, spend your valor and jps wisely. Or, even farm bgs and convert honor points > justice points, if that's how you'd rather do it.

I'm personally not much a pvper, I play for pve - I whine if people try to join my raids in pvp gear. And why shouldn't I? I spent lots of time and effort into getting my pve gear, and a lot of gold into gemming and enchanting it.

Plus, it's only the same as pvp - if I come into your rated bg with no resilience, I bet you'd whine too.

Try and replace your pvp trinket with the low ilvl and you'll do more than enough damage. That is assuming you know some stuff about pve rotation. If not, look it up, swap your trinket, and go pewpew a bit in LFR and see how it goes. :)

Very simple. It is called PvP gear for a reason.

*Sips her tea*

PvP gear is perfectly find for raids. Its not perfectly fine for players.

Aside for heroic mode raids, all PvE content can be cleared by raid groups where everybody is fully decked with PvP gear of appropriate ilvl.

It's players who fail to understand this statement - your problem is with player perception not with the actual benchmark requirements.

PvP gear is perfectly find for raids. Its not perfectly fine for players.

Aside for heroic mode raids, all PvE content can be cleared by raid groups where everybody is fully decked with PvP gear of appropriate ilvl.

It's players who fail to understand this statement - your problem is with player perception not with the actual benchmark requirements.

You're 12% off boss hit cap, and have 4.5k resilience, which would be much more useful, and deal much more dps if that 4.5k was elsewhere (haste, mastery, crit).

Who are you trying to kid?

Check when i dinged check my ach check the huge amounts of gear i recycled since i dinged. I got all the 377 pvp set the second i dinged in order to get access to the new heroics and LFR.

There is a thing called primary stats for example for my mage thats intellect. The 377 pvp gear beats the crap out of any pve pieces 359 and lower with only exception the trinkets.

Enchant reforge and gem properly simply, play decent as well and you will pull out very acceptable numbers for LFR environments at least. For normal and heroic pve raids you will have to replace most of your pvp gear but it wont take to long with LFR and the new heroics.

My point is your pvp gear is fully viable for LFR and heroics if you use it properly. (gems, enchants, reforges, hiting required caps in general)

18/02/2012 16:48Posted by Mariplum

There is a thing called primary stats for example for my mage thats intellect. The 377 pvp gear beats the crap out of any pve pieces 359 and lower with only exception the trinkets.

The easily obtainable 378 gear *available from dungeons and justice points, also convertable from honor points, which are farmed from bgs*, also beat the crap out of 377 pvp pieces.

18/02/2012 16:48Posted by Tríxxi

You're 12% off boss hit cap, and have 4.5k resilience, which would be much more useful, and deal much more dps if that 4.5k was elsewhere (haste, mastery, crit).

Look kid - that 12% missing Hit and -4.5k haste/mastery/crit/whatever are NOT what will cause you to wipe on any boss below heroic modes. If you think that DS normal cannot be cleared by players equipping full 359 gear sets (which would be the equivalent of 384 PvP gear, or -4.5k in 'useful' stats) you have no idea what you're talking about.

YES, THE SAME 'PVE' GEAR WOULD MAKE YOUR KILL FASTER. But that is hardly the question here - nobody in 384 PvP set would wipe a raid due to enrage or healer OOM cases (the only cases where too-low itemization is a valid cause for wipe) so your point is totaly moot.

There is a thing called primary stats for example for my mage thats intellect. The 377 pvp gear beats the crap out of any pve pieces 359 and lower with only exception the trinkets.

The easily obtainable 378 gear *available from dungeons and justice points, also convertable from honor points, which are farmed from bgs*, also beat the crap out of 377 pvp pieces.

Ofc. thats why i said 359 and lower

At this point of the expansion no sane person would waste time farming for 378 before gaining access to lfr.

So 377 pvp pieces 1st to get LFR access for newly dinged chars. Then you make your proper set by combining LFR and new heroics.

18/02/2012 16:48Posted by Mariplum

There is a thing called primary stats for example for my mage thats intellect. The 377 pvp gear beats the crap out of any pve pieces 359 and lower with only exception the trinkets.

you can get 378s with very little effort these days 2 you know?

18/02/2012 16:48Posted by Mariplum

My point is your pvp gear is fully viable for LFR and heroics if you use it properly. (gems, enchants, reforges, hiting required caps in general)

getting say the caster hit cap (17%) or 18 whatever would be hard due to the fact that you cant reforge out resisilence and thus you would again lose even more stats trying to make up for that fact, you would also prob have to gem hit and reforge alot of some other stats to get there. It is not hard to simply farm the new very easy heroics and get raid worthy equipment.

The mindset that people have of "its ok for LFR and heroics" just goes to show how little they actually care about pve content in this game and how little effort they wish to put into developing their characters, yes this is a MMO but it is also a RPG and part of playing in an RPG game is that you need to put time into it in order to achieve something not simply buy pvp items and expect your below average dps to be considered good.

There is a thing called primary stats for example for my mage thats intellect. The 377 pvp gear beats the crap out of any pve pieces 359 and lower with only exception the trinkets.

you can get 378s with very little effort these days 2 you know?

My point is your pvp gear is fully viable for LFR and heroics if you use it properly. (gems, enchants, reforges, hiting required caps in general)

getting say the caster hit cap (17%) or 18 whatever would be hard due to the fact that you cant reforge out resisilence and thus you would again lose even more stats trying to make up for that fact, you would also prob have to gem hit and reforge alot of some other stats to get there. It is not hard to simply farm the new very easy heroics and get raid worthy equipment.

The mindset that people have of "its ok for LFR and heroics" just goes to show how little they actually care about pve content in this game and how little effort they wish to put into developing their characters, yes this is a MMO but it is also a RPG and part of playing in an RPG game is that you need to put time into it in order to achieve something not simply buy pvp items and expect your below average dps to be considered good.

I killed DW on normal 7-8 hours after i dinged while doing 25,7 k dps on Ultraxion with 4-5 pvp pieces that i couldnt replace till that point.

Just because my char isn't capable to do 40 k doesn't mean i couldn't raid or pull the numbers needed to kill the bosses.

And the op doesn't even talk for "hard" raiding but lfr and entrance bosses from what i understand.

If i lose 3-4 % crit or 2-3 % haste or i am 1 k intellect down compare to proper raid geared chars barely makes a difference when the content i aim for doesn't require it.

For me (as freshly dinged arcane mage at that point) 377 pvp gear was gods gift. Huge amounts of intellect full mastery stacking and i just try to reach the hit cap. Cant get better then that a few mins after you ding. Thats better then t11 raiding hands down.

18/02/2012 16:54Posted by Mablode

Look kid - that 12% missing Hit and -4.5k haste/mastery/crit/whatever are NOT what will cause you to wipe on any boss below heroic modes.

12% off hit is alot - a lot of your spells will miss the boss, perhaps even putting you at below tank dps. If you'd done any boss past morchok (which I have seen you haven't done), actually requires a certain amount of dps. If you create a raid, consisting of people in the same gear as you (including tank, who can also be missing his important CTC cap in pvp gear), you will find it very easy to wipe. The enrages are no problem for the people in the right gear, but with people lacking so many secondary stats and hit cap, it will be. Not to mention the healer's heals will be much lower, which means you would need a 3rd healer for most bosses, if not all. Yor'sahj, warlord, ultrax, warmaster, spine and madness all come to mind with the healing and dps requirements on the all. Yor'sahj has a tight enrage timer without the right dps, and oozes can easily be a problem if your dps can't dps them in time. Warlord, the healing is quite intense, even on normal, there is a lot to heal and dispell at the same time, secondary stats are very important for healers, at least there. Not to mention the enrage, too. Ultraxion...anyone who has done this, will know. Warmaster...mini enrage before the boss comes down, you will probably take so long that the ship would die before he did come down. Spine requires lots of healing and burst dps. Madness also requires some good healing (when the tenticles get low health, p2 when tanks are tanking the horrors), and some good dps (to avoid multiple impales, and blistering tenticles from overwhelming the healers).

This is why, with many pvp equipt players, lacking so much hit and so many secondary stats, would not be able to complete most of these bosses. Sure, they may be easy, and with the nerf. But with people in pvp gear, they will suddenly become very difficult and tight on enrage.

[quote]This is why, with many pvp equipt players, lacking so much hit and so many secondary stats, would not be able to complete most of these bosses. Sure, they may be easy, and with the nerf. But with people in pvp gear, they will suddenly become very difficult and tight on enrage.

This isnt a topic open for debate btw every single decent player will tell you that for dps'ers at least primary stats > all else and that pvp gear (properly put in use in terms of enchants gems reforges) is fully viable for LFR and heroics.

The ones that object have low understanding of the game.

We talk about LFR and entrance raid bosses here not killing tendons on heroic madness

This isnt a topic open for debate btw every single decent player will tell you that for dps'ers at least primary stats > all else and that pvp gear is fult viable for LFR and heroics. The ones that object have low understanding of the game.

primary stats > hit >haste/crit/mastery.

NOT:

primary stats > resi > hit > haste/crit/mastery.