Topic
The Issues with Subtlety Rogues in PvP
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The past few months there have been many complaints about the current state of Subtlety Rogues in PvP. However, after looking through most of the threads, I realized that constructive threads on the subject were rare, which is why I decided to write this thread.
See, as easy as it might seem to just bash on these forums with 1 sentence about how high some random Rogue critted you, you really won't convince the CMs like that, while it definitely is a very relevant issue which requires changes. Therefore, I hope that you could all share some constructive comments on the subject, hopefully including possible solutions or measures. I will start with my own opinion in post #2, but the goal is to make this into a constructive thread where you can voice your opinion. You aren't even forced to read anyone else's comments, as long as you keep it constructive, objective and on topic, although discussion is of course preferred ^^ Let's try and get this issue fixed rather than bashing the game pointlessly with no result. Keep in mind though, irrational ideas are useless. Suggestions which would completely ruin the class are not helpful, so it is really important to stay objective if we really want to make this into a constructive thread and thus getting some changes through. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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As mentioned, I will start with my own opinion. Naturally though, my opinion does not count for anymore than the opinion of any other player around here, so if you disagree, feel free to come up with some constructive counter-arguments.
Anyway, the past few months I have gotten a bit worried about the state of Subtlety Rogues. Their damage has been buffed for PvE reasons, their scaling is a bit too strong and because of all that, made even worse by the Wound Poison buff, Subtlety Rogues have possibly become the strongest damage dealers out there. Now, that in itself is fine, because there has to be one class dealing the highest damage, right? Unfortunately though, you would expect this class to have some weaker points, compensating for the insane damage. Subtlety Rogues, however, lack this compensation. Currently, Subtlety Rogues score high in every aspect aside from "survivability without cooldowns", but since they have (arguably) the strongest burst damage, very good sustained damage, great survivability cooldowns and insane control, that is not really a problem anymore. Now that is where it goes wrong, and that is also why I believe a hotfix is needed before MoP comes out, since it has become too excessive. Subtlety Rogues are supposed to have strong survivability and great control, and even though Smokebomb probably doesn't belong on the Preparation cooldown, it seems like only few oppose against the general idea of the class mechanics. That's why there is little wrong with the control and survivability of Subtlety Rogues. What is really causing issues now, is the damage, and that simply has to be reduced. Even a slight damage nerf, like a 5% nerf on all damage (through Sanguinary Vein) or nerfing FW to 50% would already help a great deal. They don't require major nerfs, but just something to make Subtlety damage get back to the "low-average" zone where it belongs. What I find really important though, is that through these nerfs, the class itself doesn't get compromised. I would not want to see Subtlety control or survivability being nerfed significantly, while the damage remains the same, since that would turn Rogues into leather wearing Warriors, ruining the uniqueness of the class. Rogues are in dire need of a nerf, but it would be a waste if these nerfs would affect the class in a negative way. That is why a damage nerf is needed, even if it might make the spec less viable for PvE, because in the end, there are 30 specs viable for PvE and probably not even half of that for high-level PvP, so it wouldn't kill anyone if Rogues only had 2 great PvE specs. And if that would be a problem, there is always the possibility to separate the damage between PvE and PvP on a certain ability (like Find Weakness). That's about all I have to say. It's your turn now ;) |
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Edited by Neolah on 21/02/12 11:23 (UTC)
While recuperate doesn't have much to do with their damage I still think that's one of the abilities that needs to get looked on. It's a defensive ability that is just integrated into the lifestyle of the rogue, and allow them to be just that, a leather wearing warrior. Combat readiness is fantastically fit to rogues, if they need defensive abilities, those are the ones that should be available for them.
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Remove prep, remove recup, lower damage by 20%, Revert MS back to 10%, Change crippling to 55%.
In return you can remove selfless healer. |
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they have to do something thow.. great survivability cd's, great mobility& control... a lot of sustained dmg, and huge burst potential couple with the PvE items.. is just to much.
They should at least address the scaling separately.. and make rogues have a weakness. |
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As do I, looking at this purely from my own perspective. However, what is good for my class isn't necessarily good for the game as well.
Possibly, but that's not urgent and will already happen in MoP (sort of).
No. I do agree with Neolah that Recuperate requires some looking into, but it is important to keep it in. The ability isn't that strong because it's an HoT, so a nerf would be good enough. Besides, with the energy gain it gives, it has become a mandatory ability making sure we can't just run in and burst someone down without preparation. First you need to waste 5 Combo Pointas on Recuperate. A nerf would be good, removing it would be a waste.
That's way too excessive. 20% is a lot more than you might think.
Agreed.
Also not something I think is urgent, and the changes they will make in MoP here are perfect for everyone as far as I'm aware, so for now, I think it would be fine to keep it the way it is. |
That's the kind of Rogue that make people want them to be majorly nerfed. Grow up. I think its a great show of honesty by the OP and although I myself don't play a Rogue I think the bottom line has to be what ever changes are made to them cannot hinder their PvE performance. I believe Warrior's Colossus Smash has varying affects in PvE and PvP. I don't see why Blizz don't implement this with a lot more spells. Sub played well at the moment is very very strong and a bit far over the top in my opinion. |
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This. They will be just 'minding the store', so while I applaud your effort and enthusiasm, only the direst of matters will be adressed before Pandaland. Speaking of which, your suggestion to save end-cap non-Rated PvP by approaching Customer Support about the Real ID spawncamp-premades has so far been for naught, they redirected it to the cobwebbed part of the Forum reserved for the kind of PvP the majority of the player-base has to deal with. So calling upon your super-awesome MVP-powers would be nice ;P |
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Nobody's expecting a decent response from you, don't worry. Now let's stop derailing this thread, shall we? |
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Unfortunally, blizzard has made the new raid so that all the fights are dps races when the pve rogue gets 5% reduction damage it would affect the pve sector to much, meaning that some other clas in tha group needs to do 5% more damage, t compensate rogues indeed have the greatest survivability, control, and damage, it would indeed make a huge difference if their damage was lowered ( i would agree it would be the easyest for pvp, but not for pve)
i believe he is right, i dont think we will get an hotfix for rogues atm i think we will just have to wait for MOP i am already happy that the trinket " vial of shadow" had been nerfed Remove prep, remove recup, lower damage by 20%, Revert MS back to 10%, Change crippling to 55%. what darian says seems better than lower damae wit 20% that would affect pve in such hard way rogues wont get allowed in raids anymore no my conclusion now is: i am happy with the current state of rogues, they are annoying, but not unkillable if we would change something it would be rather -pve items in pvp ( not gonna discuss this has been discussed alot) -or indeed an damage reduction, in some way it doesn't affect pve ( where the game is perfect balanced) |
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Most of the time when they 'nerf' something, they over-do it and completely wreck it because they think they know what is 'wrong' with the class/spec. If they change our survivability they'll have to tweak Recup (which is fine, I have to say that staying in stealth for 20 seconds just to come back 100% is a bit over the top), because there isn't much else they can change is there? (maybe remove a few things from Prep. but like you said, that's being worked on in MoP) |
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Remove the heal then, the whole idea of giving pure dps classes healing spells is stupid (rogues/hunters/dk's/mages/warlocks/warriors). In my eyes anyway. |
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This would be the best idea, if they remove it for every DPS class. (maybe keep Warrior Frenzied Regen?) |
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Remove the heal then, the whole idea of giving pure dps classes healing spells is stupid (rogues/hunters/dk's/mages/warlocks/warriors). it would be the best idea but if they did this, they also need to nerf the current healers holy pala's could just kill all dps classes who dont have self heals, due to big survivability if they did this, healers must be like they were in vanilla, fragile, but healers. |
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Recuperate is not a problem at all. Seriously where do people get this stuff from?
The only place recuperate is excessive is duels. But the balance in that has been long deserted and dominated by us anyway. In my eyes, burst damage needs a slight nerf. Everything else, save prepbombing, is fine. Just look back at the previous patches. We hardly got any changes. What made us cross the line is the gearscaling pushing us above the supposed damage limit we should be performing. |
The only class which has retarded healing is rets all other heals are more or less fine |
