World of Warcraft

Hello y'all,

This may not be the best idea I ever had, but I'd still like to hear people's opinion's on the matter, mainly to define and open up the concept for others who're in doubt.

Today, I found my AA event reported because "it's RP-PvP without restrictions and there's unrealistic annihilation of Horde settlements". I won't name the man who did it, so please don't ask. For people who wonder how I know, don't worry, it's because I'm an AA admin. There is absolutely no danger that when you report something your name is passed on to anyone but the AA staff.

I'll admit it frustrated me somewhat. While I understand people may not enjoy RP-PvP without restrictions, for various reasons, I don't think it's reasonable to report the event.
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I'd like to explain why I, and I assume those participating, do enjoy it.

1. It gives a certain thrill: Unlike with normal PvP, you play your character, in a mission where you may win or lose. You don't know, even as an organizer, what will happen. You might be entirely overwhelmed within minutes, or you might find no competition, but it's always kind of ... exciting. Do I lead my soldiers to death or glory? There's no real chance for retreat, you either win, or you lose, no balance, which kind of strengthens the feel of the battle and the danger. The closer you get to populated cities, for example, the more dangerous it actually feels.

2. You base yourself on game mechanics: I know that to many this actually sounds like going OOC, but it's not. You don't have to rely on anything else but what your character does, and to me, that feels liberating. You don't have to worry about breaking a rule, or what your current score is, all you need to focus on, is your character, and his behaviour in the fight.

3. Every soldier has his worth: You might be the lowest recruit, your character can make the difference between winning or losing. Your mere presence might be a boost to morale, if people know you're a good PvP'er. You don't have to assume your commander is boosting your morale, he is boosting it, if he has the skill. If he does not, he can still boost it, by contracting better fighters in his regiment.
This ties in with my first point, where I stated the excitement is always there. If you have a strong PvP'er on your side, you'll feel more confident in victory. Now this may be an OOC feeling you have, it easily translates to a more assured character too.

4. There's little drama: There's no drama amongst those who PvP. Not saying it doesn't happen, but you can very easily disable it by refusing OOC chat. This works well in private groups. People love to think PvP is autodrama because of battlegrounds, but I don't perceive it that way. You're good enough, or you're not, and if you're not, there's work to be done.

5. Nobody is left out: I agree that lower leveled people will have a hard time. If you're not max level, you'll die very quickly, and the actual battle won't really bring anything good for you. So yeah, in the actual fight, lower levels are better to scout the region, or attempt to blend in with the soldiers, or perform other tasks within the fortress. I don't know if lower levels have a high chance of survival in RP-PvP with restrictions, but I assume they don't die that fast. I used to dislike doing anything but roleplaying in this game, if I did do something else, it was all for roleplay, like getting nice looking gear from the PvP vendors.

But apart from these players, everyone can join in, be they griefers or roleplayers. Alliance griefers to the Horde are just more enemies, and Horde griefers are the same to the Alliance players. They might enjoy what is going on, and actually turn to roleplaying.
People seem to assume that because someone else isn't roleplaying, they have to stop roleplaying as well. I like to see it the other way around: No matter what happens, I stay in character.

Now, there are a few negatives to RP-PvP without restrictions:

1. It's still perceived as mindless ganking: People either think we're on a RP mission and dare not interrupt, or they think we're a mindless force seeking only to do PvP.
I can see how this is a problem for some, but it ties in with how we perceive roleplay: We stay in character, no matter what happens. We can not solve this problem for others, alas. We can try to look as roleplay-y as possible, and we do, but we can not change how you choose to treat the world around you. I find it helps to just look through your character's eyes and act as if everything that happens, actually happens, no matter how odd it might seem. Perhaps that's realism, more than fun, but agh, there's no good if there's no evil.

2. We are unrealistic: Or to say it with other words, we sometimes slightly bend the lore. I don't find this a good argument, since every RP-PvP event does. Whether we annihilate a town, or massively clash in the middle of nowhere. We actually don't destroy or burn the towns, but even if we did, I'd say there's plenty of opportunity to rebuild it. Just like so many others, we do not treat the zones as static environments. We respect that we can not claim this or that lorecharacter to be dead, but when it comes to buildings, if there's a little bit of damage, I doubt it hurts anyone.

We do keep in mind the restrictions of characters, yet as I said before, we incorporate the in-game mechanics into our roleplay. For some reason, this automatically translates to bad roleplay for some, which I think isn't fair.

3. No emotes during the fight: That's true, the fights are rather intense at times, and do not allow for a lot of typing. Nevertheless, that doesn't make it any less of a roleplay event. We're still there in character, we're still fighting, only you don't need emotes or endless warcries to show it. We still manage to speak, actually, from time to time, I'm yet to see this develop entirely, since we only did this event once before and can't remember how we did it in them olde days.


I'm actually not entirely sure yet what the exact complaints are regarding this type of RP-PvP, but I'm very much willing to listen to reason and kindness. I'm not accusing any other type of RP-PvP to lack any of the benefits to RP-PvP without restrictions, it's just that I never experienced them so heavily as when I do in RP-PvP without restrictions.

SORRY FOR ALL THE TEXT, I JUST WANTED TO COVER AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE!

Nobody has a right to go against your choice of RP. One of the main tenants of the Argent Archives is to not judge roleplay - only to promote it in all its forms. Besides, it's refreshing to see a different kind of RP-PVP where there's no reason at all to whine about imbalance.

Risking beating the dead horse until it's dead, I'd add to the downsides the following:

4. Low level characters are next to useless. That's how it goes. If you go all out without limitations, low levels (and badly geared characters) die like flies. They quickly lose their interest, after being repeatedly killed 10-20 times a row. This doesn't support character backgrounds either - some low levels might be seasoned war veterans, and suddenly they're killed off by a brush of someone's sword or a single bullet, while his less-experienced buddies swing like the best of it.

5. Gear and uniforms are restricted. Even with transmo option, many guild outfits still cannot be used. For example, in our Mountaineer outfit, most armor pieces are made of cloth or leather, which makes it fairly impossible for plate-wearing characters to effectively play their class in unrestricted PvP. Should we want to appear in an unrestricted RP-PvP fight (without being single-shotted), we wouldn't look like Mountaineers anymore, but like an odd mixmash geared mercenary group instead.

6. Formations and strategic deployment lose their meaning. You can argue that positioning plays some role in WoW PvP, but I say it's bogus. Bottleneck battles are the only scenario that seems to hold some strategical value. Otherwise it's just groups of characters running around in a fairly chaotic, big skirmish.

7. To become powerful in roleplayed battles, one must spend (considerable amounts of) time to gear up through Battlegrounds and Arena. This is a downside, because it automatically puts people with roleplaying as their top priority to the bottom, and those who have more time to spend on the game in general, and especially these other functions of the game, first.

I'd probably have more, but these will have to do for now.

I'd say the main criticism most people have is that there's often a disproportionate amount of Alliance players quick to defend their own settlements when under siege, yet very few Horde players willing to do the same. This boils down to sheer laziness in some cases, but also due to population issues.

Another issue is realism. Some of the settlements are heavily fortified in the canon lore and are far larger than they're represented in the actual game world. I admit I do cringe a little when I see a few players claiming to be strong enough to assault a heavily fortified settlement IC.

A good compromise would be to avoid major settlements and encourage strategic, immersive strikes against the various huts and camps strewn about Azeroth. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for unrestricted RP-PVP when it comes to gear, but I'd like for it to make sense IC as well. I fear many Alliance players simply view the Horde settlements and players as fodder to fuel their own guild/personal plot-lines these days instead of valuing what the opposition bring to the table in terms of lore.

First of all, I'm actually quite surprised and a bit shocked that someone reported the event. It shows nothing but bitterness towards those who participate in the days of IC (nonPvP) events and preparation that lead up to a rather small scale event that doesn't last very long.

On-topic.
I prefer unrestricted PvP events because they are simply more fun, rely on a strong level of teamwork and tactics.
All members have to work as a team, or they will be killed often and quickly.

Heavily scripted and restricted events are dull and repetitive, give no real sense of excitement or even the threat of the dreaded corpse run. And let's face it, they often end in more drama than it's worth when someone 'accidentally' uses a special attack and kills a few people.

For those who say it's not realistic, well that's just nonsense. Especially coming from a Night Elf, it's more than acceptable for us to attack Orcish/Horde bases around Kalimdor as they are still perceived as invaders and aggressors. It also makes sense that certain groups of Humans would want to get revenge for the loss of Southshore and the previous Wars.

I'm aware that low level players of the opposite faction may die during such attacks, however this is easily fixed by simply not turning on PvP. Some may be annoyed by dead quest-givers, but they do respawn very quickly these days.

Oh and let it be added that although I personally don't like RP-PvP without restrictions at all and find its entertainment value poor, it's great to see that all sorts of events are being arranged. I'm sure there's plenty of people here who do get their kicks from stuff like this.

For those who say it's not realistic, well that's just nonsense.

But Taevyn just marshalled a very good reason as to why they can be.

Taevyn also raised the point about the Horde being used as fodder. I raise the point of why is the Horde so weak to not do the same with the Alliance?
I see the merit of respecting the enemy and all that junk, but this already feels like nitpicking at its greatest. The only thing that's limiting with considering these as OOC or IC scenarios are the players. Not the game, not event organisers, the individuals who should be substituting the issues with their creativity rather than holding them up like a white flag, go 'HNNNNNNNG THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE' and then run away.

Why is it any harder to imagine any DM-run story-driven events or campaigns involving non-existant enemies and events than accepting the fact that settlements may not be as well-defended all the time and may not be the gargantuan fortifications like Warsong Hold in every zone?

Personally I am all for it, I just have issues with a few things.

I'd like to point out, the fact low levels die quick and are useless is just as true with our current white dame RP-PVP terms.

I'll agree to most of those points, in fact, Waywatcher, though I'd like to add, as I did with most negative points I mentioned:

4. This is unavoidable, but true. Lower levels won't find much of a fight here, but most of them wouldn't really bring anything to the fight in other scenarios either. But yes, they would die quickly, if they chose to fight.

5. Gear and uniforms are restricted indeed, but I think roleplay should never depend on what you wear. I personally never really take gear or looks into consideration when someone roleplays, but I can see how that's an issue for some people. Alas, can't be helped, I just wish people's roleplay wouldn't depend on that too much.

6. Strategic deployment is still there, it all depends on how you fight. If I chose to split up my fighting forces, I'd have to do so strategically. All in all, it's actually quite a strategic affair, if you don't watch out, you'll be overrun, your healers will be killed, or people will lure you. It might become a hectic battle after a while, but to be true, that's how they show most of the battles in any sort of medieval war movie, and I don't think it's wrong to do it that way either.

7. You can actually still roleplay your character as being strong. Nobody is keeping score of how many you killed or how often you died. There's no judging ongoing, in fact. If you tell us you killed atleast 7 guards, we'll be impressed.


8. (in response to Taevyn): That is true, but I find it required to sacrifice a bit of lore to have some fun in this game. It's really but a minor sacrifice, for a lot of roleplay. I don't know how big most of these settlements really are, I think few really do, but I find the in-game representation to be enough to go on. Theramore and such would be cities, ofcourse, but most other things I'd consider villages.

Will return, might have missed a lot of posts while I was writing!

4. There's little drama: There's no drama amongst those who PvP. Not saying it doesn't happen, but you can very easily disable it by refusing OOC chat. This works well in private groups. People love to think PvP is autodrama because of battlegrounds, but I don't perceive it that way. You're good enough, or you're not, and if you're not, there's work to be done.

No drama? >.>

I was originally from Defias Brotherhood and before I arrived on AD I had never even thought that RP-PvP can happen without full pvp gear. So i will happily say if you have not encounterd drama yet, you will.
People will complain one side had full out arena geared roleplayers.
People will complain one side had a few more healers and therefor there was never a chance to win etc etc etc etc etc ec.

Like I said before I can understand why some will enjoy no rules/no limits rp-pvp but really if someone claims this really is better, less stressful and allows for more actual RP I call BS.

RP-PvP isn't about killing. It's hard enough to keep fights going with both fairness and realism even without rampant epeen shaking and ability spamming.

On DFB, if the organisers were being incompetent, yes, there was whining. I attended enough events organised by the likes of Girloy to say that each side can easily also have fun and mitigate the Q_Q storm by the loud minority (who goad the rest if the organisers ignore them).

Yeah, I don't think any of the currently participating guilds will actually get into a rage. Might be slightly different on a pure roleplaying realm, but I never really had drama in these kind of RP-PvP events, and I've had a few.

As for your comment, Marttus, fairness isn't what we're looking for, and we're as realistic as the next roleplayer.
RP-PvP is about the fight, and about the RP that leads to it and comes from it, in my opinion.

I really hope a lot of epeen is being shaken, I don't want anyone to feel like just another addition to the force, in the end.

22/02/2012 21:09Posted by Taevyn

Another issue is realism. Some of the settlements are heavily fortified in the canon lore and are far larger than they're represented in the actual game world.

On the other hand, the world in which we play actually only represents a tiny bit of how big Azeroth really is.

Yes, I think it's a bit much when you raid for example the Crossroads and then actually proclaim icly that "you absolutely raided Crossroads," but I'm fine if you instead say you raided a small, unnamed horde village. I think the latter isn't unrealistic at all, considering our characters find themselves in a war-torn setting.

22/02/2012 22:17Posted by Yohn

I really hope a lot of epeen is being shaken

I'm afraid that competitive gaming in "RP-PvP" only builds up epeen. Battles become competitions and roleplaying is pushed to a secondary position. I understand that some players enjoy this and I can relate. Still, I can sate my own cravings for competition elsewhere. When I roleplay, I like to roleplay.

Hmm, that's a fair argument.

I think it'll come down to organisation to make sure it doesn't happen. Still, though we had only one event that really required on the spot creativity to make it work, it shouldn't be too hard to do.

I'd also like to clarify, so far, the guilds participating are not PvP guilds. We're not really good at PvP, apart from some exceptions, and I don't think many of us plan to be. So it would be wrong to think we lay all our focus on just PvP, it's really more about the RP amongst us.

They serve different purposes.

RP-PvP with restrictions is like reading about a battle in a book, the fun in them comes from looking at the details. You have time to describe how your cape is moving with the wind and you can go into details about what you are doing. This does however mean that they are a bit slower and harder to digest. The problem with them is that your characters role might turn out to be that of one of the hundreds of soldiers that aren't important enough to get more than a single line in the story.

RP-PvP without restrictions on the other hand is like an action movie, they are of a fast tempo and there is little time for long dialogues in the heat of battle, but witty one liners are encuraged. They convey a sense of danger and they make characters feel mortal, you kill and you get killed. The problem with them is that your character risks being one of the red shirts that was only brought to the battle to be killed for plot or comical reasons.

One thing that is hardly ever mentioned though is that far too often the restrictions are written with a fighter's mindset. A beast mastery hunter who would never part with their pet is suddenly forced to dismiss it because pets are against restrictions isn't fun, or a mage that is supposed to be able to create blizzard through a wave of hand is suddenly forced to wand. Their characters aren't allowed to be lived out during the battle and the restrictions now serve to limit their roleplay than making the PvP part of RP-PvP fair. This is something that can't happen to a character who is mostly about swinging his sword.

Anyway, we are never going to agree on one rule set for RP-PvP, but I hope that people will see that there are more than two ways to do RP-PvP than two. If the problem with no restrictions is that gear becomes too powerful then why not have gear restrictions, but no skip the skill restrictions? If low levels aren't staying alive then ask them to turn their PvP off and /duel the low levels from the other side. There is no need to always go to absolutes and different rule sets work better for different events.

22/02/2012 21:46Posted by Leron

I'd like to point out, the fact low levels die quick and are useless is just as true with our current white dame RP-PVP terms.

Was planning to point out the same. I would also point out that I enjoy RPPvP with gear restrictions and rules. I also enjoy RPPvP without gear restrictions. I don't generally enjoy the flamewar slagging that goes on in the server forum afterwards.

In my experience [which I admit is limited to my experience], low levels die frequently in RPPvP regardless. This has yet to be a factor in preventing me from bringing my low leveled character(s) when appropriate. Yes, when they get close to the massed fight, they get taken down, often incidentally.

Most importantly, Waywatcher is correct I think when he writes:

it's great to see that all sorts of events are being arranged. I'm sure there's plenty of people here who do get their kicks from stuff like this.

Edit: Thumbs up on the post of the goblin above me.