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ok morbrid your point made me laugh, I'm sorry but it seriously made me laugh here is your quote:

Admittedly 25 mans receive marginally less tokens (only 2 per boss), but they also receive more valour points.

Marginally...for you it's marginal 5 more people which is half your raiding team right? Then when I'm saying that 10man raiding is 2x5mans , 10man raiders get mad. Also it has been hilarious your point about the valor points....yeah we are so loved by blizzard that give us more valor points from our raid.....you maybe haven't been raiding for a long but you know there is a valor cap of 1k each week mate, you can do 2 more 5man heroics and there you go you got all the loot you want....jesus, 25man raiding guilds get more valor points per boss kill so we gear up faster , first time I see this kind of argument.

I'm curious as to why you believe my results to be incorrect? Using a Morchok hc kill as a level of "seriousness" is perfectly valid, and was done on MMO-champion fairly recently (see http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2662-Heroic-Dragon-Soul-Difficulty-Blue-Posts-64bit-Client-DiabloFans-Contest-GW2-Beta).
The data you gave us is for post-nerf Dragon Soul, I don't think anyone is arguing against you that 25 mans were originally overtuned when DS first came out, and hence why blizzard nerfed them, however Ultraxion was never 1 minute shorter on 10 man than 25 man. If the argument is that currently 25 mans are harder than 10 mans then I think the percentages I gave you in the other thread would disagree.

On a side note, thanks for creating an alternate thread so I dont have to spam the progress thread.

The looting was a clarification for Gurthang, and yes the valor points make no difference, but I stick by the tiers being marginally less. On 10 man there is one tier drop per boss for every 10 raiders. On 25 man there is one tier drop per boss for every 12.5 raiders. That seems like a fairly marginal difference to me, and pieces of tier gear can always be obtained through LFR.

I perfectly know what mmo-champ said about the topic but if you read carefully above the graph it sais that the sample that has been taken was characters (not guilds) which include alts and if I may add also buyers who got carried out, I cba reading the tons of posts that people made there, eitherway I can give you much more other topics from mmo-champ and other sources saying that 25man has been significally harder than 10man in DS, but I clearly don't see the point since I don't need to bring dozens of sources to prove that the sky is blue.

The data I gave you has nothing to do with pre-nerfs, unless you mean that these 12.255 guilds that killed Yor heroic 10man did it all pre-nerf, as far as I know ~Mar 2, 2012 wasn't the date of Yor nerf is it?

2.5 raiders (a.k.a 5 raiders in 25man) is a huge difference gear wise mate. Take it like that it can easily take 2-3 more resets for a 25man raiding team in order to get these people who "lacked" gear (5 people) compared to a 10man raiding guild, sorry but 2-3 resets isn't marginal, specialy if it's a progress and some kind of ranking that you take into consideration. Why you think most hardcore raiding teams got banned by exploiting LFR? you think they did it cause of the insane stats of the 384ilvl items?

Mentioning LFR, you do realise that LFR tiers are only good for their set bonuses right? if you check for example a DK's leggings difference in strength between LFR and Heroic the difference is enormous. Just check out my gear and you will see that I still have the normal tier leggings that I got ~2 resets ago (I had LFR till very recently!) and I still have valor healmet. Check out our gear and you will realise that eventho I farm the heroic modes for more than you have and still our gear is almost equal and you call that margial difference of gearing ?

*puts salted popcorn in the microwave*

Any chance someone could take it upon them to create a weekly 25 man DS normal for alts? I'd so join it. Grogar maybe? Beastslayer?

EDIT: Sorry if this wasn't related to the topic.

The only reason I gave you a link to MMO-Champion was to validate me using the number of people who have killed heroic Morchok as a judge of a guild being serious or not, which apparently isn't how statistics works.

02/03/2012 01:35Posted by Ulothar

You can't rly judge madness difficulty for example by the total amount of guilds that killed Morchok heroic, what kind of logic is that?

I do realise LFR is only used for their set bonuses, it is why I mentioned it in the first place, as an argument that slightly less tier drops is hardly going to affect your progress when you can get your set bonuses so easily. The same amount of loot per person drops, its just slightly harder to completer a tier set.

02/03/2012 02:23Posted by Ulothar

Check out our gear and you will realise that eventho I farm the heroic modes for more than you have and still our gear is almost equal and you call that margial difference of gearing ?

I call it RNG, I had good luck and you had bad luck with drops.

Why don't you see that from the amount of guilds that actually REACHED the final boss 68,15% of them managed to kill it (in 10man) while only 31,85% of the total guilds (that REACHED that point) killed it in 25man.

Are you just pulling numbers out your !@#?

Spine of Deathwing Heroic : 295 (25man), 1.012 (10man), that means in a total of 1.307 guilds that killed Spine of Deathwing Heroic : 22.57% are 25man raiding guilds and 77,43% are 10man raiding guilds.

Madness of Deathwing Heroic : 244 (25man), 522 (10man), that means in a total of 766 guilds that killed Madness of Deathwing Heroic : 31,85% are 25man raiding guilds and 68,15% are 10man raiding guilds.

295 25 man guild that have killed spine, 244 that have killed Madness. That's 83% of 25 man guilds that have reached it managed to kill it.
1012 10 man guilds have killed spine, 522 have killed Madness, so only 52% of 10 man guilds that reached it have managed to kill it.

You are taking numbers very out of context here. It is true that 68% of Madness heroic kills are done by 10 man guilds, however when you take into account the fact that 90.5% of guilds are working on 10 mans this isn't so impressive. (24649/(2574+24649)*100%=90.5%)

02/03/2012 05:03Posted by Exaalion

*puts salted popcorn in the microwave*

I see you're also watching this flamewar?! ^^

I'm still wondering why someone from another realm, came to our realm forums, just to start a flamewar and insult our ssl homies?!?!
Ulothar I dont mind if someone from another realm posts here, but they shouldnt start a flamewar or insult or attack our ssl ppl!! You seem so stubborn that you dont even notice you're trolling.
A heavy discussion like this might be fun once in a while. But if ppl start insulting the topic should be closed. And Ulothar, I'm sorry to say but if you keep going on like this, insulting our members. It might be better to go to your own realm forum.

02/03/2012 02:23Posted by Ulothar

Check out our gear and you will realise that eventho I farm the heroic modes for more than you have and still our gear is almost equal and you call that margial difference of gearing ?

Do you actually remember wotlk? During ICC for example there was a huge difference in gear. 10man had a lower item lvl then 25man. And also, you could do 10man and 25man in 1 week. So the 25man guilds got better gear and farm even more gear on 10man.
While the 10man guilds had to pug 25man raids. And tbh, the best items like some weapons dropped on 25man. So the progress on 25man was much faster then 10man.

Every expansion and every patch has their ups and downs. Some patches 10man have the advantage while other patches 25man are better.
Same goes for classes. Sometimes a class gets buffed and they own the dps meters for an entire patch. While the next patch they are at the bottom.
25man raiding had their glory during wotlk. Now its the time for 10man raiding to shine!

Please stop complaining as there is no point. There will always be a difference in 10man and 25man. Maybe you get lucky with MoP?

02/03/2012 09:23Posted by Mitsuko

I'm still wondering why someone from another realm, came to our realm forums, just to start a flamewar and insult our ssl homies?!?!

If I've got it right, he's Skelos, previously of SSL. As such he has previously done this several times since he left SSL so it's no big surprise to me.
I'd agree that it does seem a bit ott and elitist, but then he does that sometimes. Othertimes he can also say something interesting, enlightening or even funny. The real key is whether Thaya/Niana turns up and joins in. Otherwise it will almost certainly be Skelos/Ulothar battering the rest of them to the point where they can't be bothered to reply any more.

its another case of someone claiming something AGAINST what the numbers say and ignoring most people with friends who do experience both

between the tiers 10 and 25s always have bosses that are harder for either raid size
all of tier 11 25 mans were just SOO much easier it wasnt funny
PF and malevolence were actually looking to merge our raid teams and go 25 heroics simply because the 10 hcs were just stupidly overtuned

lately i think they have had a good balance of difficulty with maybe a few fights favoring a certain raid size
but to say that its alot harder on 25 for all of Dsoul without actually looking at the numbers you posted suggesting otherwise is a bit stupid

the VAST majority of raiders do 10s in this tier
saying who gets the highest % of kills means NOTHING if u dont count the % of 10 to 25 guilds
if there are 10000 10 man guilds and 100 25 man guilds that kill random boss A
u dont get to claim its because its easier
according to your own numbers its because 100x MORE PEOPLE TRYING THE BOSS

right now yes there are inbalances in difficulty but not all are in favour of 10s
madness and hagara for one are easier on 25
i have no doubt some are easier on 10 and ill wait for some more people to confirm them to me when they have experienced both

@kvot seeing as PF is looking to get 2 alt runs up and running i highly doubt we will get a 25 pug going anytime soon

Morbrid, you clearle haven't used any sim lately to see the dps increase from a single item that give you 88-188 strength more and if that effect your progress or not (specialy on Spine heroic pre-nerf). Maybe that's why you feel that increasing heavily your base stat won't effect your progress that much, this is one of the reasons some guilds can't make progress cause they haven't used any sim in their lives.

02/03/2012 09:23Posted by Mitsuko

Ulothar I dont mind if someone from another realm posts here, but they shouldnt start a flamewar or insult or attack our ssl ppl!! You seem so stubborn that you dont even notice you're trolling.

Mitsuko maybe you missed the whole thing, maybe you didn't read the whole thing but in case you wonder I simply congratulated Unnatural for their heavy effort to survive in a content where all 25man raiding guilds are dying switching to 10man to survive, it has been the butthurt 10man guilds who felt offended and flamed me by saying "you congratulate a sucky progressing guild". I'm not reffering only to Scarshield legion where most guilds switch to 10man since they have not enough recruits but on other high pop realms where recruitiment isn't an issue these guilds switch to an easier raid size so that they have the feeling of progress.

Mitsuko, please stay on topic. Maybe you did not understand the title of this topic, it's only 3 word topic and it starts with DS. ICC is totaly irrelative to the topic, ICC 10 had nothing to do with DS 10, it's a previous expansion and ICC 10 had different drop list, it is in Cataclysm when blizzard announced that they will "try" to make both raid sizes equally hard (obviously they failed in tier13, they had some success only in t11). Please stay on topic.

02/03/2012 10:30Posted by Gurthang

I'd agree that it does seem a bit ott and elitist, but then he does that sometimes. Othertimes he can also say something interesting, enlightening or even funny

So let me get this straight, when I congratulated Unnatural for their effort surviving in a realm where every single guild turned to 10man (even aftermath), raiding as alliance in a realm where alliance is endangered specie the reply I got from the "high" ranked SSL guilds (Primal Fusion and Lume quenta) was : "You congratulate a guild with sucky progress" and you call me elitist and not them? just...wow no comments.

02/03/2012 12:09Posted by Beastslayer

all of tier 11 25 mans were just SOO much easier it wasnt funny

Ye, Al'akir was a very nice example of an extremely easy 25man content while it was insanely hard in 10man. Tho I agree with you , t11 had enough bosses that were "easier" in 25man, see I am able to see the truth objectively, but when I see people saying that yor, zon'ozz, ultraxion, spine, madness etc are easier in 25man than in 10man I'm sorry but this is just provocative action.

right now yes there are inbalances in difficulty but not all are in favour of 10s
madness and hagara for one are easier on 25

Hagara is a !@#$ty boss in both raid sized seriously, I clearly said that hagara has been easy and yeah we killed it at the 3rd pull on heroic. Ill give you an example, doing hagara's achievement in 10man is a joke, try it on 25man and you will see. It's clear to me that you haven't seen 25man yor and zon'ozz before the fix-patch lowering the hp and dmg from these bosses they were way more tuned than you think. Please can you give me another example (not counting hagara) where 25man is easier than 10man in DS? (yor, zon'ozz, ultraxion, spine, madness and gunship are easier tho in 10man and I experienced both raid sizes) . As for your madness info, why don't you merge raids with another guild from SSL to own madness heroic then? Please try it if it's easier as you say please do it just for the fun of it.

02/03/2012 12:09Posted by Beastslayer

@kvot seeing as PF is looking to get 2 alt runs up and running i highly doubt we will get a 25 pug going anytime soon

Why don't you take your 10 pro raiders combined with raiders from Aftermath or Malevolence and own the whole content in heroic? This way you will help them progress in an easy raid size and this way you will boost the realm's progress, go try them please now that they are all nerfed (I ensure you Spine heroic now is easy), or even better, why don't you try to remove the buff and try yor, zon'ozz, ultraxion, gunship, spine ? you will see how easier it is on 25man compared to the hellish 10man.

02/03/2012 12:29Posted by Ulothar

Ye, Al'akir was a very nice example of an extremely easy 25man content while it was insanely hard in 10man

DID U SERIOUSLY JUST SAY THAT.... your refutation to tier 11 being easier on 25 is to say that
1/13 being harder means it isnt..
all of BWD apart from attram easier on 25
all of bastion easier on 25
wind council easier on 25
alakir easier on 10
yes it was the perfect tier for difficulty apparently

and why are u mentioning the hagara achievement if YOU MADE THE TOPIC about difficulty
of the actual heroic modes

the reason we dont raid 25 is because of the extra work needed to get a 25 running
NOT BECAUSE they are harder
having to organise a raid is not the same as raid difficulty

Wow.

Just to clarify Ulothar (again) the problem is with you wading in and putting down our ten man progress straight away in your first post by saying that 25 man was harder. Grogar and myself stepped in to politely point out that actually they were meant to be balanced and provided stats to support this. You then started being rude and introduced lots of really strange unsupported arguments.

I have huge respect for Unnatural and I could not conceive maintaining a 25 man raid. Getting 10 people is hard enough!

But this argument started with Ulothar putting down 10 man difficulty, which is an outdated prejudice from before Cata. If you have a quick look at WOTLK completion stats between 10/25 man you can see quite clearly that progress in 10 man was much faster. The figures change dramatically throughout Cata.

Please check here: http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier13_25 for 25 man completion percentages.

Please check here: http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier13_10 for 10 man completion percentages.

You can fiddle around and see what the stats were in WOTLK.

Either way, the most solid data available is quite definitely showing that progress through 10 man content has been much much slower in Cataclysm, up to and including T13.

Mitsuko makes an entirely fair observation related to the argument, which is related to 10 man prejudice, which is that it's not ok to come onto another realms forums and start putting down other guilds.

02/03/2012 12:16Posted by Ulothar

the reply I got from the "high" ranked SSL guilds (Primal Fusion and Lume quenta) was : "You congratulate a guild with sucky progress" and you call me elitist and not them?

Just like to really massively stress that we in no manner said this. I have no idea how this has been a valid interpretation. Unnatural have my undying respect for maintaining a raid team in this climate. I remain jealous that they have raiders that I want and I secretly dream of their demise so that I can steal them :)

<3 Unnatural

IMO you shouldnt be able to post on realm forums without a character at least lvl 85 ON that server

would cut back on soo much on the crossrealm guild advertising
people posting on alts just to troll
and people who transfer away come back to the forum a month later expecting the server to have died and justify their decision they most likely regret
and start hating when they findout people are actually happy with our community

02/03/2012 12:16Posted by Ulothar

Morbrid, you clearle haven't used any sim lately to see the dps increase from a single item that give you 88-188 strength more and if that effect your progress or not (specialy on Spine heroic pre-nerf). Maybe that's why you feel that increasing heavily your base stat won't effect your progress that much, this is one of the reasons some guilds can't make progress cause they haven't used any sim in their lives.

How about you check my logs (http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/eu/Scarshield%20Legion/morbrid/ shameless epeen boost) before posting bull!@#$ like that. I can appreciate the dps gain from the extra strength, but it is nothing compared to player skill. Ultimately the content is as hard as the players in the guild make it, and because of that it is redundant to compare 10 mans and 25 mans. I value personal progress higher than guild progress, so I don't care if I'm not 8/8 hc (although it would be nice!), my goal is to improve on one or two fights every week that I raid, and my guild will progress as a bi-product of that.

this whole post smells of jealousy and anger

@Beastslayer, no need to be mad mate calm down. You got mad by me saying that al'akir was easier in 10man while other bosses where harder, at least I gave you an example of an easy boss in t11, you haven't been able to give me an example of a DS boss that has been easier in 25man, apart from hagara which is an easy boss in both difficulties. I am pretty sure now you will rage out saying that all bosses in DS are hard in 10man but it will simply be a lie , just like that since all of the other bosses have been easier easier than in 25man mode you like it or not it's true, I've seen both raid sizes and I can tell.

I mentioned hagara achievement exactly the way some people (including you) mentioning wotlk in a DS (cata) topic, I have the same right as you do.

What kind of extra work you need to make a 25man raid group? Please if you are about to bring an argument at least try to find something more catchy, I do not understand why it's soo hard for you (as malevolence a pro SSL raiding guild) to make a joined group with Primal Fusion, go on do it you should be able to clear all content within a day since it's easier plus you will have full buffs. If you find it so hard I can make a lvl 1 character and make the group for you, want me to do it?

@Esgarath, mate please do not alter what happened (to bad blizzard deleted the posts), right after I made the post congratulating Unnatural Primal Fusion stepped in saying that it was stupid of me congratulating a sucky (this is the exact word used) progress guild. Right after it has been Primal Fusion and you saying that 10man is harder and not me, why would I even bother wading my progress in 25man and 10man in a realm like SSL? Do you seriously think that I needed to do that?

Please Esgarath do not bring Wotlk 10manvs25man, it's nothing related 10man raid content drop a total of different gear and blizzard never said that the two raid sizes had the same difficulty back then, please stay on topic reading exactly what I say and do not imagine things that you think I said. Also please do not link statistics of the overall guilds in wowprogress, I said it in another post too, there are guilds that are registered in wowprogress and have been disbanded since the early cata times or some random pvp guilds that have done one raid in their life, do not count guilds like that I gave you the statistics of each heroic mode boss in both 10man and 25man cba giving them again, it clearly show that more guilds killed the bosses in heroic mode. The reason you see some 10man guilds progress slower than 25mans is because they suck , every day thousands of 10man guilds form and none of them have any significant progress history in Cataclysm so please do not bring arguments like these they are at least insignificant.

@Beastslayer, you do not own the forums and in most countries we have democracy which means people are free to express their opinion freely if you don't like it , well I'm sorry. Also I ensure you I haven't been away from SSL for a month , if you don't know anything about me please do not spread mud around my name. Additionally as you can see I do not post on any alt. Please stay on topic and do not spam/troll. Nobody said anything about your community do not imagine things.

@Morbrid, you seem to not understand what I wrote. Why would I care about your stats? I clearly mentioned Sims and the website you gave me is absolutely no Sim, if you don't know what a sim is please ask instead. When you mentioned LFR tiers you should also take into consideration the other stats you lose. Let me make it more interesting by asking you this "how much dps you lose if you switch your heroic tier shoulders with LFR ones, your heroic tier leggings with the LFR ones and your heroic gloves with your LFR ones? do you know? give me the number of your dps loss" this is what a sim will tell you.

Also you prove once again why some guilds have low PvE progress, you said that you "value personal progress higher than guild progress", well that explains a lot. This is exactly my point on that.

02/03/2012 17:30Posted by Rosewalker

this whole post smells of jealousy and anger

Yeah some people are possibly jealous but I can't help em unfortunately. If you were referring to me, then yeah I ensure you that I am jealous of Malevolence and your insane progress compared to mine, can you please recruit me? I'll do my best with some help from your guild mates.