World of Warcraft®

This isn't a fairy tale.

Characters don't need to be killed because they've done terrible crimes, the world isn't fair, evil people don't get their punishment a lot of the time.

True, but realistically there should be more people gunning for her than there are.

This isn't a fairy tale.

Characters don't need to be killed because they've done terrible crimes, the world isn't fair, evil people don't get their punishment a lot of the time.

True, but realistically there should be more people gunning for her than there are.

Like..ANYONE. seriously, who is actually shown as being after her?

True, but realistically there should be more people gunning for her than there are.

Like..ANYONE. seriously, who is actually shown as being after her?

Well the worgen gave it a good go when they retook gilneas, but yea I am lost why we do not even see a few lines of dialogue of how much the argent crusade hate her but cannot deal with her right now.

Also the whole end of the 4th war in MOP really makes me wonder, what is going to happen to Sylvannas? Varian sent forces north already during the cataclysm and the worgen are turly furious after the invasion, I do not see them leaving her be and accepting peace with the horde, fter all Varian highlighted this in the battle for Undercity, "we have lost out greatest heroes to peace"

So what is going to happen next, thoughts?

Alliance launches wave after wave of attacks, which Forsaken successfully repel, getting plenty of bodies of all Alliance races in the process. They learn how to raise them all as undead, which bolsters their ranks to the point they lay siege to Khaz Modan. During that time, Ebon Blade and Argent Crusade are deeply concerned. They are now watching Sylvanas and the Forsaken very closely, as similarities between her and the Lich King are increasing in number by the day.

Hey, at least it beats the current state of things, where Alliance thinks horrors Sylvanas is responsible for in Lordaeron are just fairy tales used to scare children.

Like..ANYONE. seriously, who is actually shown as being after her?

Well the worgen gave it a good go when they retook gilneas, but yea I am lost why we do not even see a few lines of dialogue of how much the argent crusade hate her but cannot deal with her right now.

Also the whole end of the 4th war in MOP really makes me wonder, what is going to happen to Sylvannas? Varian sent forces north already during the cataclysm and the worgen are turly furious after the invasion, I do not see them leaving her be and accepting peace with the horde, fter all Varian highlighted this in the battle for Undercity, "we have lost out greatest heroes to peace"

So what is going to happen next, thoughts?

Several possibilities. Ones I can think of off the top of my head:
*World of Warcraft: Reign of the Banshee Queen. 'nuff said.
*Minor boss in the Siege of Orgrimmar raid(/sadface)
*Sylvanas' interests, as of her short story, lies in survival. Once the Horde starts failing, I expect her to switch sides, or at least try to do so. If successful, she could use her suddenly alleged "I helped you off Garrosh, I'm a good girl now" situation to sidestep most (but not all) of her enemies.
*She could use her massive gains during the war, coupled with the (presumable) extreme losses for the other factions to break out of the Horde, and still have a nation too powerful for either the Horde or the Alliance to actually deal with.
*Redemption. She could end up realising her fault, forswear her wicked ways, and live out the rest of her days hugging bunnies (/snicker).... or claim to, while she in secret concocts a plan to usurp the power of the Old Gods and ascend as an immortal goddess of evil and sexiness... or something.
*Speaking of Old Gods, she could simply find new allies to hide behind. It's not like there's a shortage of 'em out there.
*She could be conveniently disposed of in a book and then never ever heard from again.

That last one would probably be the worst one, tbh. And that's no small achievement when you look at the list.

Oh, and there's probably a ton more, as well as varieties of the listed ones.

I'm not sure why so many fans of Sylvanas struggle to cope with the realisation that she's a villain. She has always been portrayed as manipulative and quick to scheme since being reanimated. It's only become openly obvious in recent years, though the now removed quests paint a pretty solid picture of her caring little for the Horde - and that was before the Wrathgate fiasco.

Let us also not forget that she laid siege to Gilneas, a kingdom that was not even involved with the Alliance at the time. There, she not only defied orders given by Garrosh himself, she assassinated Liam Greymane. Sylvanas and Arthas certainly enjoy spilling royal blood, don't they?

Not to mention, manipulating Lor'themar and the blood elven race as a whole is in pretty poor taste, especially given everything they've gone through.

But shes NOT a villain. Well, not yet if i know Blizzard. All the Sylvanas ' hater' are basicly saying is: ''Oooooo, shes so bad, shes so evil, we cant have that, no no no, she has to die''
Your using the 'villain' card way to soon. And im sorry, but comparing her to Arthas is a weak argument. They both like to shed royal blood? So Arthas, who at that time was still believed to be his former 'good' self, killed his father who himself didnt even know Arthas had turned evil, is the same as Sylvanas killing Liam during a WAR, with him fully knowing he could die at any given time. Lets get real here. And Lor'themar beeing so easily manipulated is in my opinion more HIS fault for having such a poor character than Sylvanas for beeing such a master manipulator.

Shes doing bad things, for sure, but its war. All out war if Blizzard is to be believed. This isnt a fairy tale(badum tish) where everyone fights honourably and innocents survive 100%. In the eyes of the Alliance, sure she deserves death. In the eyes of the Horde, shes not exactly a hero, but shes damn effective. In the eyes of the Forsaken, shes the best faction leader around(and i support that notion). And in the eyes of your average WOW player, shes someone whose actually put the WAR back in Warcraft.

She's a villain, she's a psychotic murderer, she does not have to die. In the eyes of the Alliance, she's a growing evil and must be dealth with. In the eyes of neutral factions, we.. let's forget them, because they don't seem to have eyes. In the eyes of the Horde, who cares what is she, she, as long as she's with the Horde. In the eyes of the Forsaken, and many blood elves, she's a hero. And that's because she IS a master manipulator.

Killing her, if it's supposed to happen, should be left for the end of the WoW. For now, she serves her purpose. Story simply needs to start making sense.

Oh, and she's a villain. Sylvanas from WC3 is not the same as Sylvanas today. Even then she was far from a good-doer, but back then she was also more interesting, because her story was balance between the good and evil. Now that balance is long gone. And it's OK, I don't see it exactly as a story progress, I see it as a story regress, but anyway that is A STORY MOVING FORWARD, and even this Sylvanas is OK to have in the story. That does not make her less villain, and does not mean she does not deserve to die from the neutral standpoint.

Let me put it this way. I simply ADORE Malfurion. But something should happen in Darnassus, some civil war if it has to be, which will result in his death as a traitor to Night Elves.

There's more to the story than your faction. And mroe to see than your fanboyism.

I dont want her to face the concequences of her actions because their wrong in some way, I think we should see her face them because by repeatedly committing crimes against both the Horde and the Alliance she has basically been beating a hornit's nest with a stick, can anyone honestly prove that she is always going to avoid getting stung?

being slippery and manipulative can only get a person in her possition so far, much of the evidence she needs to hide does not belong to small scale opperations, to make things worse their nature means that it is impossible to maintain control over everything she needs to so that no evidance escapes her shroud of deciet. What if someone saw what lay within and managed to live to report the truth?

The Horde might be keept at bay for a while by Sylvana's claims of innocence, she might be able to lul them into inaction by claiming she knew nothing of what a small number of her free willed forsaken had been plotting behind her back but as more incidents are uncovered it might become clear that all those other crimes were not isolated incidents, that there is some connection between what had been dismissed and these new cases, eventually Sylvanas' claims of innocence are going to fall on deaf ears. Even if she is not punished immedietly these connections might warrent further investigation and that may lead to Sylvanas being found out.

Imagine if one of the slaves the forsaken had been keeping in hilsbrad, or one of the surviving test subjects (who had..say been planted in a field...or something) somehow managed to escape and found their way to the worgen? The forsaken and the alliance are already at war with one another, the alliance does not need much reason to attack them but these continued insults from the forsaken are not going to do anything to soften the blow if it does finally arrive, if the alliance is given an opportunity to lunge at their enemy these provolkations are only going to make them more likely to take it , this might play into Sylvanas' hands BUT...

Both the Alliance and horde have ties with the Argent crusade and Knights of the ebon blade, these two factions both have reasons to want Sylvanas forced out of power, The crusade surely wont stand for the mass raising and enthrallment of a large number of human soldiers and farmers, if there was anyone still not turned its quite possible they might have thought it a good idea to inform someone with a proven track record for dealing with the undead. If only Tharassian remained he may still have informed the crusade due to the partnership his organisation shared with theirs. Perhaps the Crusade was only told after the ebon blade, or Thararassian only informed his own, as he prepared himself in acherus for the coming flurry of bloody vengance he wished to unleash upon sylvanas for daring to take Kotrilla, perhaps he discovered Kotrilla's fate and felt he had to tell his superiors that Sylvanas had stolen the will which his brother-in-arms had only recently had returned, perhaps Darion could be the one to fill Tirion in on the threat growing on his very doorstep.Not that he could have possibly missed an army of Val'kyr flying above andorhal.

The longer this particular chapter of Sylvanas' story goes unresolved them more evidence there will be to prevolk the already distrusting or even downright angry factions she has been periodically either stabbing in the back or just plain stabbing into retaliating.

do you want Sylvanas's story to be sidelined or ignored? if you do then by all means claim that she could get away with her scheeming by being more subtle. Being subtle goes hand in hand with not being noticed, If what she does is not noticable then what story will there be to tell? She could fade back and become an extra I suppose, NPC's and events dropping hints that she might be up to something, it might even be cool if blizzard made it into a sort of puzzel going on beneath whatever the main plot of the expansion happens to be but dropping little hints of a plot that might be going every now and again isnt going to help advance Sylvanas' storyline, it might help set the seeds for whatever events might be important in that story but it isnt going to be a satisfactory progression if it only takes place 'behind the scenes' where no one can see it. She is going to need to step out of the shadows eventually.

Killing of Sylvanas and you pretty much kill of the forsaken and most likely loss a ton of subs the only possible replacement for her would be Crown Princess Calia Menethil and that would be a spit in the face of the Alliance by making her undead :P

25/04/2012 09:19Posted by Altena

Killing of Sylvanas and you pretty much kill of the forsaken and most likely loss a ton of subs the only possible replacement for her would be Crown Princess Calia Menethil and that would be a spit in the face of the Alliance by making her undead :P

In the old days of wow the Horde was Thrall's and Thrall was the Horde. The idea that a character which had a minor role in Nagrand would take over as the leader of the Horde was impossible. Yet it happened, and now a lot of people don't want Thrall to return.

Sure, you can not just replace Sylvanas right now, but you'd only need one expansion to build up a character to fit the job description and we have more than one character that could fit that role. Master Apothecary Faranell, Nathanos Blightcaller, Master Apothecary Lydon, Alexi Barov, Lilian Voss and Galen Trollbane are all character that has at as much if not more influence over the Forsaken than Garrosh had over the Horde in TBC.

With that said, I personally don't believe that Sylvanas has to die, but I do believe that a lot of people in lore should feel that way, especially members of the Argent Crusade.

last thing we need is more sausage character there is enough male characters in this fantasy setting already

22/04/2012 14:47Posted by Cruciani

Sylvanas isn't as bad as the LK, guys ^^.

True. She's worse. Arthas at least had the excuse of havign his soul taken by Frostmourne. Sylvy supposedly has her own free will.

O, I have a question for you: how would you act when you died while defending your homeland, got ressed and everyone threats you like it's your fault that you're a monster? I'm pretty sure everyone would be happy, don't be jealous and just live happily on your own ...

Her first action on leading the Forsaken was to ally with the Alliance and then kill off a large part of the remaining defenders of Lordaeron.

Since then she has used humans and others as slaves and medical guinea pigs. Her people routinely engage in torture and warfare against people whose crime is that they didn't die with the Scourge.

It IS her fault people treat her like a monster.

Did she ever make a flesh giant of living children, women and men? Don't think so.

Abominations. And the Gilneans starter zone.

(She did created a flesh giant in Gilneas, but atleast people were dead when it was created.

Because binding them in a gestalt while undead is so much better?

Did she ever torture women just because she thought it was fun? Don't think so.

Shes pragmatic. She lets her people have their fun.

Did she ever betray her own father & people? Don't think so.

He father? No. Her people? Arguably - yes. Theres that whole "do as I say, weaken your defences, slow down your rebuilidng and aid my revenge or i'll sic the Scourge upon you" event for example.

+ Most undeads are extremely loyal to her (perhaps the new generation isn't that much, but they seem to be less smart and could be easily mislead by "original" forsaken), I doubt some would accept a new leader and perhaps most of them would go rogue & fight like assassins. Nothing is as bloody as guerilla warfare.

To date....few have. Geoffrey et co being the known exceptions.

Yeah, I really want an alcoholic as leader. And why would the Forsaken accept him as leader? He's a gilnean of the Greymane family, most of the forsaken are former lordaeron members

They accepted a High Elf of Quel Thelas.

EJL

2. Heroes are born in an unfair world. The world must be unfair so we should have heroes and villains. And villains die. They ALWAYS die.

While Sylvanas being a raid boss is deinitely possible (Moira Thaurissan and Jastor Gallywix also come to mind as faction leaders with a clear potential for raid bossery), one issue it presents is basically this one.

Sylvanas is a villain and also a faction leader because being evil is kind of the Forsaken's thing; they've always been the one unapologetically malevolent race in WoW. It's not a bug, it's a feature. Being Forsaken is about getting to play the villain, getting to do horribly nasty things and having quests dripping with black humour, and they have a faction leader worthy of that story hook.

But being a player race, the Forsaken can't simply go away, and making them good guys would miss the point of their whole ethic, so this basic Forsaken nastiness is not something that's going to disappear from WoW.

This is something that distinguishes the Forsaken from say, the Orcs, who are a more morally ambivalent faction, where an honourable shaman racial leader like Thrall makes as much sense as a bloodthirsty warrior like Garrosh. You can give the Orcs a Villain Leader and replace it with a Hero, but Forsaken... you're basically trading Sylvanas for someone of equivalent evil... so... I'm guesisng there's a point in there somewhere.

23/04/2012 17:46Posted by Danthos

But shes NOT a villain.

Yes, she is.

Shes doing bad things, for sure, but its war.

She and her people didn't need such a flimsy excuse as "war". They did it anyway.

In the eyes of the Horde, shes not exactly a hero, but shes damn effective.

In the eyes of the Horde, shes doing bad things that deserve punishment but is currently needed.

EJL

27/04/2012 16:44Posted by Moppet

While Sylvanas being a raid boss is deinitely possible (Moira Thaurissan and Jastor Gallywix also come to mind as faction leaders with a clear potential for raid bossery), one issue it presents is basically this one.

Gallywix at best deserves a dungeon. Moira seems to be an unlikely candidate for either.

EJL

While Sylvanas being a raid boss is deinitely possible (Moira Thaurissan and Jastor Gallywix also come to mind as faction leaders with a clear potential for raid bossery), one issue it presents is basically this one.

Gallywix at best deserves a dungeon. Moira seems to be an unlikely candidate for either.

Gallywix and Moira both come to mind because they're faction leaders that are basically played as, at best, amoral and prickly, and at worst downright villianous. Previous faction leaders who have fit this general role would be Fandral Staghelm and, of course, Garrosh Hellscream - and we know well how the former ended up and what'll happen to the latter. Definitely up there with Sylvanas as Most-Likely-To-Be-Killed-By-Players.

I don't want to see her killed only because she deserves to die, or because Blizzard ran out of targets to kill. If they make it interesting, logical and engaging story, then I don't give a damn what happens to her.

You forget that it wasn't Sylvannus who sieged Gilneas, it was Garrosh. He gave the order, not her.
Yes, her ways are very dark and alot like the Lich king, she isn't a saint yada yada blah blah.

But there is one thing I will agree on, if the Alliance keep attacking her people then they have no choice but to keep on raising more people to serve them, if they don't they'll have less soldiers on the field and eventually they'll be wiped out.
Do I think the way this plotpoint is played out is good? No, it's very pantomime instead of being a damned if we do damned if we don't view, we don't really see the consquences of this other than one NPC in the Argent Crusade saying so, I could be wrong, please link any other quests or NPC dialogue that says like wise.

I can see the other side of the fence, I do think Gilneas should go back to it's people but again, this was the fault of Garrosh who gave the order, not Sylvannus, she HAD to do what she was told.
The prince being slain...it all depends on the circumstances, if he was left to live would he have gone out to kill more Forsaken? If so, then what choice did they have? Let him live? Tie him up and send him to Stormwind packing?
Southshore and such...havn't quested there yet to be honest, the "pumkin patch" is a bit odd, I don't see the purpose in that and southshore must've been of some importance for it to be sacked, why use the plaguebombs for a tiny village when the town had very little to start with?

In short, no I don't think Sylvannus should die, the short story shows what would happen if she did and it's not preety.
From what i've seen so far she's treading on a very thin line and that's why the neutral factions can't do anything, yet. She has her reasons and all are mostly plausable (until i've seen quests in Southshore and such) all of the evil that has happened in Cata falls on one Orcs shoulders, Garrosh, he's the one who gave the orders, the Forsaken acted on this.
When the War is over, the Alliance for some reason pull out and the Forsaken give back Gilneas and still Sylvannus is raising innocent people from the dead or using the plague, then she needs to go down.

Sylvanas should use the valkyr to ressurect her old voice.

Sylvanas's voice actress from wc3 > Her world of warcraft voice actress BY FAR.

From what i've seen so far she's treading on a very thin line and that's why the neutral factions can't do anything, yet. She has her reasons and all are mostly plausable (until i've seen quests in Southshore and such) all of the evil that has happened in Cata falls on one Orcs shoulders, Garrosh, he's the one who gave the orders, the Forsaken acted on this.
When the War is over, the Alliance for some reason pull out and the Forsaken give back Gilneas and still Sylvannus is raising innocent people from the dead or using the plague, then she needs to go down.

Neutral factions either lost any reason to stay neutral long ago, or never had it (druid organisations, Kirin Tor, Argents, Ebon Blade). People rage about Sylvanas mostly because Alliance kinda ignores the fact that she exists, and although both she and Garrosh do "questionable" stuff, it seems that only Garrosh will have to have his bottoms kicked.

She deserves to die. She does not need to die. Story just needs to make some sense.