Ret paladin in MoP?

90 Blood Elf Paladin
9615
26/03/2012 00:01Posted by Dàvion
This is one of the few talent I havnt seen anyone spec'd so far in beta and so far and therefore dont know how well it actually works, but I am having great fears about it

Wait, you're in the beta? If so can we get any news about the talents? (lurked a bit in hunter forum and apparently the devs changed some stuff around and didn't update the calculator yet).


Don't need to be in the beta to see any changes to talents. Just go over to a wow database and have a look, the data is now taken from the beta not the blizzard website.

Hint - mop.wowhead or wowdb
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85 Human Paladin
6665
Didn't think wowhead would update that fast... poor naive me... :\

Just one point i'm not getting tho is why are we stacking haste... sure, it decreases the cooldown of our main abilities, but wouldn't we just be better off stacking mastery as we do now?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9615
Haste is going to decrease the cooldown of crusader strike (/HoR), hammer and judgement. Also the GCD of these abilities. Depending on how stats go, we probably won't be stacking haste straight away in pvp I guess, depends on the scaling as well. For sure pve will be stacking haste.

End-game though if nothing else changes will be mass haste for sure, judgement is already looking very crucial - snare/selfless healer/Holy power/LAotL ect so decreasing its cooldown will be a huge bonus. Not to mention if you can get the GCD of HoW down to one second, think of the hammer spam on wings with the talent...
Edited by Ladepkcab on 26/03/2012 01:46 BST
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85 Human Paladin
6665
Right, didn't consider the GCD part, tho tbh i think haste is not going to have noticeable effects unless it's very heavily stacked. The way i see it, depending on how good haste scales the priorities are going to be haste>mastery/crit or mastery>haste>crit, tho i'm an awful theorycrafter, so don't take my words for granted :P
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85 Human Paladin
3840
i would eb inclined to say it will be like cata at the start of MoP. where primary stats (str agi int etc) will massively outweigh secondary stats due to scaling until we can stack enough of them to see a significant difference
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You can have 5 Holy Power now, no ability will ever consume more than 3. That means you could potentially always have 2, just CS or focus Judgement someone = LAotL and 30% more movement speed on top of that.

It seems good on paper.


Pursuit of Justice - You gain 10% movement speed at all times, plus an additional 10% movement speed for each current charge of Holy Power up to 3.

OR

Long Arm of the Law - A successful Judgment increases your movement speed by 45% for 3 sec.

How are you getting that it looks good on paper? It stacks to 40%, 10% base + 30% from 3 holy power.

It does NOT work with 5 holy power.

Given that we are going to be stacking haste, how can you think that 145% on judgement for 3 seconds, that may well have less than 5 seconds cooldown will be worse than a max of 140% movement speed based on your current holy power? i.e. not spamming wog....


My bad I keep forgetting you need to pick between the two.

I already know it doesn't stack with 5 Holy Power, hence the fact I said 30% more movement speed rather than 50%. Durr.

There's no need to be so negative all the time when change comes along. Seems like every other poster in this thread thinks it's the apocalypse.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9615
There a lot of positive changes I do agree with that, and its looking 'better' than previous expansions at this current stage. But....I just hate the two steps forward, one step back - or worse. Here's a snare, but it will cost you repentance and cleanse spam.....Oh. Looks at feral druids or any other melee, or even class (in terms of snare) >.<
Edited by Ladepkcab on 26/03/2012 22:04 BST
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2 Goblin Shaman
0
Does Judgement apply Seal of Justice in the beta?
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93 Human Paladin
10360
There's some misinformation or dated information in this thread. Off the top of my head:

1a) Zealotry is not gone, it's not even folded into GoAK. It's in there, under a different name, as a talent called Holy Avenger, which is essentially the same as Zealotry except it does not require 3 holy power to activate, and the 3 holy power from abilities triggers from any ability that generates holy power (which in MoP is Judgement, Hammer of Wrath, and Crusader Strike). Of course, you have to give up Divine Purpose proc to get it, but that was reduced from the cata version anyway.

1b) GoAK is a 5 minute cooldown as ret (see 1a)

2. Sacred Shield does not require holy power, it costs mana, it's essentially the same as the old sacred shield of WOTLK days.

3. Sure, cleanse has 8 sec cd, sure, that will hurt you, but cleanse removes *all* disease and poison effects from you, so sure, it only removes 1 snare, and you could have multiple, but at lest it'll be more powerful when it is used that one time.

So...
Anyway, mobility should be fine, I think you all underestimate the effect of being able to apply a 50% snare. You will still have HoF, and you can even use a 5-minute cooldown to refresh the cooldowns on it, hand of sacrifice and protection. Sure, you'd have to miss out on repentance for the ranged snare, but it's a ranged snare that's on a fairly low cooldown.

Repentance has a cast-time now anyway. So if you chose it, you'd have to stand there casting it, which would be very bad for ret. So essentially it's between choosing to have a ranged, lower cooldown stun instead of HoJ, or a snare. Admitedly that's still quite a big ask, and some snare-heavy teams may well choose to go for fist of justice instead of burden of guilt.

Healing in theory should be reasonably okay, selfless healer might be a bit of a mana drain as I don't believe it reduces the mana cost of heals cast, holy power comes fast too so WoG could be an option in a pinch, even if it might be weaker than todays WoG. There's even the option of a DoT damage-reducer which could help against some DoT-heavy teams, although why it's only 70% and not higher given its short duration and the situational-ness of it puzzles me.

If there are any real concerns, it should be about paladins control ability, or lack there-of. We may be getting an AoE-CC, however it's on a 3 minute cooldown, and while that would still be potent and good in RBG, it does make it of relatively limited use in small-scale PvP. If you choose the ranged snare, you will end up having just your old HoJ other than that, which is quite limited. All this gears up to us being a fantastic support class, and useful in rated battlegrounds as a utility damage-dealer, yet perhaps not that wonderful in the smaller scale, and the lack of control could really hurt is in 3v3 Arena.
Edited by Langlam on 27/03/2012 15:37 BST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9615
There's some misinformation or dated information in this thread. Off the top of my head:

1a) Zealotry is not gone, it's not even folded into GoAK. It's in there, under a different name, as a talent called Holy Avenger, which is essentially the same as Zealotry except it does not require 3 holy power to activate, and the 3 holy power from abilities triggers from any ability that generates holy power (which in MoP is Judgement, Hammer of Wrath, and Crusader Strike). Of course, you have to give up Divine Purpose proc to get it, but that was reduced from the cata version anyway.

1b) GoAK is a 5 minute cooldown as ret (see 1a)

2. Sacred Shield does not require holy power, it costs mana, it's essentially the same as the old sacred shield of WOTLK days.

3. Sure, cleanse has 8 sec cd, sure, that will hurt you, but cleanse removes *all* disease and poison effects from you, so sure, it only removes 1 snare, and you could have multiple, but at lest it'll be more powerful when it is used that one time.


Might reply to the rest later but...

1) As far as I can see they have changed holy avenger now:

Holy Avenger - 2 minute cooldown -
Abilities that generate Holy Power will generate 3 charges of Holy Power for the next 20 sec.

Check wowdb or mop.wowhead, both are currently showing that it is independent of GoAK and on a 2 minute cooldown. Not sure if this is good or not, since wings will be on 3 minute cooldown, maybe they did this to reduce us stacking cooldowns together? Eitherway, it looks a lot better than the other talent choices now, up to the point where we might get HoW GCD quite low, and depending on HoW damage ofc. But this new HA effectively gives us another 2 min cooldown rather than rolled into pre-existing ones.

2) Sacred Shield is most likely a bug. How much mana does it require? I can't really see them bringing back the old sacred shield given how much everyone hated it. But hey, if they do brilliant, though the dispel problem is still there (hopefully offensive dispels get cooldown nerf soon) and selfless healer + glyph to increase next heal after flash by 30% looked a bit OP, especially since it sounds like it will work on ourselves.

3) How many diseases and poisons are there though? Spriests have one, and then its just rogues and dks. Dks it will be nice if they dont have dispel protection still, but they probably will. Rogues it might be ok against the ones that take the new poison, but currently cleanse removes crippling AND wound just fine in one cleanse. Will see what its like, but I dont really like the idea of it atm, and don't see why its being made a glyph and not a spec choice, why does holy even need it, and what happens when its seen as OP for holy?
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93 Human Paladin
10360

Might reply to the rest later but...

1) As far as I can see they have changed holy avenger now:

Holy Avenger - 2 minute cooldown -
Abilities that generate Holy Power will generate 3 charges of Holy Power for the next 20 sec.

Check wowdb or mop.wowhead, both are currently showing that it is independent of GoAK and on a 2 minute cooldown.


Yes, that's what I tried to say. It remains an option, but it seems to me like it's likely more potent than the proc by a massive amount, and it's difficult to quantify it against the other talent.


2) Sacred Shield is most likely a bug. How much mana does it require? I can't really see them bringing back the old sacred shield given how much everyone hated it. But hey, if they do brilliant, though the dispel problem is still there (hopefully offensive dispels get cooldown nerf soon) and selfless healer + glyph to increase next heal after flash by 30% looked a bit OP, especially since it sounds like it will work on ourselves.


1,200 mana at level 85 (there's 20k base mana in !@# at 85) So it's 6% base mana from the looks. I believe the concept is, you can get a reasonably powerful Health over time that costs holy power, selfless healer, or the old sacred shield back. So Ret paladins would have a few they could take depending upon their inkling, likely in PvP sacred shield or selfless healer would be the choices, holy would probably avoid selfless healer. There's choice, so no one has to feel "forced" into it, however eternal flame and sacred shield are still fairly similar because they're 1-target only. If a target is always taking damage and always needing healing, eternal flame seems superior, but sacred shield has the added anti-instagib effect, so it may well be people go for sacred shield early on, then swap to eternal flame when their haste gets high.

Of course for ret pvp, the ability to swap targets of this easily and without massive cost would likely mean sacred shield is considered superior long-term anyway.
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90 Human Paladin
3665
ry watching a bit farer than ur noose... every class has a 2min (some1 even 30s 1m30s 1min) burst undispellable or near...
The majority of specs can burst u 3-4 times before u pop out ur 2nd wings....
and u can be sure that as soon as u see 1 paladin nuking down any1 under wings AND divine shield we'll get something rearranged again (Even if 1 time each 3min)...
Pop wings(like i said undispellable currently in the beta), throw hammers for 20 seconds straight while generating holy power since in mop it will grant us HP, use sacred shield and wog... doing damage while being able to heal up is pretty awesome. stop whining, think outside of the box, get good with what you get.
Edited by Judgmènt on 01/04/2012 13:25 BST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15900
Sacred Shield is atm buggy or it is intended, that one dmg hit (lower then the displayed absorb) break the effect earlier.

example:
Sacred Shield absorbs 12k,

Enemy A) makes 8k hit (or a simple dot effect)
Enemy B) Hit you full and icd 6sec (yeah you see 4k absorb left!)

bug or intended?

if we see this as pov PvE (ok we don't know how hard they will really hit) this is another story.

if sacred shield expires at least, if we take all absorb effects. (PW: Shield, Spirit Shell, Divine Aegis, Sacred Shield for example in that order), if all priest shield completly absorb the incoming dmg, 1 single dmg point and our sacred shield is gone and the proc has an icd 6 sec.

sry for my bad english, i do my best :P
Edited by Lunnete on 02/05/2012 11:38 BST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5400
"-Still no dispel protection"

Wings is undispellable in MoP
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5400
Also 50% slow on SoJ + Burden of Guilt (Free chains of ice every 6 seconds) are INSANE improvements for ret. You people are crazy.

Wings and that Zealotry Gaurdian talent are undispellable. Emancipate has zero cooldown and removes all snares, like the current cleanse for Ret.

EDIT - 10% damage reduction EVERYTIME we use exorcism for 10 seconds. (Glyph)
Edited by Катамар on 03/05/2012 15:30 BST
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1 Troll Shaman
0
[quote="35532392529"]There's some misinformation or dated information in this thread. Off the top of my head:

While I do agree with the majorty of the things you said, I still belive that we will suffer greatly from the lack of a gab-closer and some dispell protection

The only thing that really makes me truely happen is the thought of all the raging the 50% slow talent is going to create
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90 Dwarf Paladin
6305
So guys, the final verdict for now...

Good or bad?
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85 Human Rogue
3120
From my pov ret is looking alot better in the beta than it is in its current state, and in my opinion ret is pretty good right now. People seriously need to chill out and see what happens in the expansion. As someone previously said in the thread, get good with what you get.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
2085
Tbh, i couldn't care less what happens to retribution pvp wise :S people are looking WAY too much into this - just like they do every expansion with every class... Your still gonna play the class regardless, no need to check every single spell change, stat change, what new spells we get etc. And then way it all up :L like i said, people look too into it... Just play the bluddy class stop over thinking it xD
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
8755
So guys, the final verdict for now...

Good or bad?


Good.
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