Topic
Siege of Orgrimmar
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Edited by Veréshya on 22/04/12 23:33 (BST)
When you say ''disliked by just about any player'', ''it's still as popular as it was back in WC3'' you make statements that are begging for proof. As for the reason why WoW loses subs.. we don't know and people on this forum always use this argument to point out what they don't like about the game at the moment.. ''story sucks'', ''PvP is broken'', ''PvE isn't challenging enough'', ''game feels grindy'' etc. Unless Blizzard brings out large data or a survey about reasons why people leave all that we can do is speculate.
While this war isn't perfect storytelling, I find it better than the 'cold war' we had during vanilla and TBC (aside from a view exceptions in Ashenvale and forsaken questlines). Having peace between the factions and working together against a greater threat is not improving the story, it destroys important lore characters (TBC anyone?) and makes the Horde a wannabe-Alliance faction. Having the Alliance be more the defensive faction and the Horde the more aggressive one is more interesting. It separates the two factions and gives them a sense of uniqueness. Let's hope there won't be an ''army of the light'' expansion with Med'an, Thrall, Anduin, and Malfurion all saving the day. The story doesn't necessarily needs a closed end. But all this focus on ''common threaths'' does put an end to interesting lore factions and characters. |
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Edited by Ehi on 23/04/12 06:52 (BST)
No, we don't know for sure what is causing it. My post was a speculative one. It was never meant to be "the truth", it was meant to highlight a possible - and dare I say likely way the devs may be thinking. While this war isn't perfect storytelling, I find it better than the 'cold war' we had during vanilla and TBC (aside from a view exceptions in Ashenvale and forsaken questlines). That is your opinion. What is Blizzard's? Having peace between the factions and working together against a greater threat is not improving the story, it destroys important lore characters (TBC anyone?) Everyone is aware of Illidans shortcoming, but the fact remains that BC was still a more popular expansion than both Wrath and Cat were. DESPITE messing up Illidan. Probably because the others made up for him. The Blood Elves, the Legion, and the Draenei were all great. So were the Naaru, the Arrakoa, the Gronn, the Mag'har, and all the other "minor" factions. We ain't got no content for the "secondaries" in the war. and makes the Horde a wannabe-Alliance faction. Having the Alliance be more the defensive faction and the Horde the more aggressive one is more interesting. It separates the two factions and gives them a sense of uniqueness. So... you're actually saying the Alliance being passive and the Horde being bloodthirsty savages is a good path forwards? Do you actually read these forums? Or even play the game? Nobody likes passilliance, nor do they like hordesmash. They liked them when they were both in the grey zone, which is quite far from what we've got now. Let's hope there won't be an ''army of the light'' expansion with Med'an, Thrall, Anduin, and Malfurion all saving the day. The story doesn't necessarily needs a closed end. But all this focus on ''common threaths'' does put an end to interesting lore factions and characters. We don't even know what "the army of light" is. Don't bash on it until we do. Also, what "interesting lore factions and characters" have gotten ever so much better due to the war? 'cus I can only think of the opposite situation, tbh. |
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Edited by Veréshya on 23/04/12 10:38 (BST)
Everyone is aware of Illidans shortcoming, but the fact remains that BC was still a more popular expansion than both Wrath and Cat were. DESPITE messing up Illidan. I don't think there is a reason to believe that it was popular because of its story, TBC came out during WoW's peak days. Besides, it was the first expansion. It was bound to be popular. But TBC butchered the 'Illidan's forces' faction.. I disliked that a lot more than the LK end. Probably because the others made up for him. The Blood Elves, the Legion, and the Draenei were all great. So were the Naaru, the Arrakoa, the Gronn, the Mag'har, and all the other "minor" factions.Some of those races were good but they also killed off Kael'thas and Illidan. So... you're actually saying the Alliance being passive and the Horde being bloodthirsty savages is a good path forwards?No, not ''passive'' and ''bloodthirsty savages'''. I said I prefer the Horde being the aggressive ones and the Alliance the defensive ones. That is the overall theme of the factions, though not every individual race (tauren are the odd ones). Do you actually read these forums?Yes. What are you trying to say here? Or even play the game?Ehm, yeah I think so... ;) Nobody likes passilliance, nor do they like hordesmash. They liked them when they were both in the grey zone, which is quite far from what we've got now.Horde is a ''grey zone'' right now as well. Only the forsaken are out there on an anti-life mission. The orcs may do despicable things but they are not ''non-grey''. I did the Ashenvale quests yesterday on this toon and Garrosh has you kill the warlock that used fel methods to protect Splintertree Post. There IS room for grayness.. Besides, they need resources and food and why should they just want peace with the night elves, and fight together against a ''common threat''? That's been done to dead. Besides, the Alliance has no reason to let the Horde exist in peace. If anything, the Alliance needs to toughen up. We don't even know what "the army of light" is. Don't bash on it until we do.I do bash it because this Army of the Light sounds like a grand army of apocalyptic proportions, meant to finally kill off the last big bad factions, almost as the end of the story. I don't want the story to be a bible. I don't even like the thought of killing Kil'Jaedan, Azshara, or Sargeras. The story can have an open end, because when you kill all of these the old villains are gone and the newly created ones will never have the same impact or immersion that the old ones had. (IMO!) Which characters have gotten better? This war made Horde leaders go further than being stuck to their 'throne rooms'. Thanks to Garrosh' agenda the Horde leaders differ and conflict with one another. Only the blood elves are not much touched upon. When we had Thrall there was no reason why the Forsaken were a part of the Horde. Right now they are useful to the Horde, they have a purpose . |
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WAIT... Does that mean Orgrimmar will look like a dump as it did in Cataclysm? Last time it got destroyed, we ended up with cranes and Goblins everywhere. No butch Kor' Kron Elite, everything under-construction.
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Was just about to open a thread. blizzard spoils this to make ppl intrested to buy the game and make sure they keep their subscription till the last patch =) |
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Was just about to open a thread. Also we know that Garrosh is the boss but he can't be in "normal" form. If he was 2 faction leaders would be enough to kick his !@# easy cuz all faction leaders are kinda matched. So that raises the question that still envolves mistery: Will he get power from something else like the Sha or even Burning Legion? My point is it can't be made a raid in orgrimmar to kill Garrosh if he stays like he is now there's no reason for so much effort so mystery stays in my opinion ^^ |
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In regards to spoilers, we have unfortunately reached the stage where every ounce of information surrounding new content is released and circulated before it even launches. In many ways, I suspect this is in large part a contributing factor as to why many players are tiring of the game.
I used to blame fan-sites for this at first, though then I acknowledged that much of the information was released to the fan-sites in question by Blizzard themselves. |
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I wonder if this is going to make sort of a bond between the two factions since we work together to bring Garrosh down.
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Yes, because that's exactly what we need, right? I mean let's just forget about all of Cataclysm, all of MoP and all the atrocities. It was all Garrosh alone afterall! |
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Im not very much into the lore aspect of the game so please excuse me if im wrong but it sounds like it really could happen.
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Working together with the Horde would be about the most idiotic thing the Alliance could to at this point, unless they're getting lots of concessions from the Horde to do so. It isn't Garrosh who single handedly commited all those atrocities and waged war on the Alliance, he had most of the Horde supporting him. It's Sylvanas who's slaughtering people in the Eastern Kingdom wiping out whole populations, it's all of the Orcs slaughtering and murdering Nelves and Humans all over the place. You don't get to walk away from what you've done, just because suddenly your leader turns out to be not that nice to you either. If I were to join a cult and we'd be going around killing people, would I be any less guilty just because I turn onto the cult leader once I notice that he plans to kill me aswell or over a simple disagreement? No I wouldn't. |
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Edited by Ehi on 30/04/12 13:23 (BST)
Both yes and no. Uniting against a common foe has served to create bonds before, and it could do so again... to an extent, and to some people. It worked fine in WC3, and with Blizzards love of reusing ideas, they may well decide to do the same thing again. However. Things are a little different this time around. Notably, none of the leaders wanted a war at the end of the third war. Thrall and Jaina - the leaders of the Horde and the Alliance expedition, respectively, were both known for their efforts to end conflict - not for creating it, while Tyrande and her Night Elves were only interested in preserving Ashenvale - once the Horde and Alliance had left, further hostilities were meaningless. This time around, however... Alliance side, Varian is out for blood, and he doesn't seem the kind who'd settle this easily. The Night Elves will be wanting revenge for Ashenvale, and the Dwarves ain't the kind of people who gets misty eyed easily - especially now when they're so heavily influenced by the Dark Irons. The Gnomes would likely prefer peace, and Velen should be able to reign in the Draenei, despite the bad blood, but those two are minor elements of the Alliance, and should be insufficient to end the conflict. Horde side... is a fair bit trickier. I could easily see both Baine and Vol'jin try for peace. Gallywix and Sylvanas are both opportunists. If the Horde is in a strong position, they'll want to continue their conquests, if they're losing, they'll want to end it. The Orcs... well, we can't say much about them at this point. We don't know how they'll view the war in a couple months. I could see a convincing peace happen, especially if Garrosh ain't the only one to die throughout the war (hint: Varian is the key). That said, it seems far more likely they'll spoof the story up once again. This is one of the reasons why so many people wish the war to continue beyond Mists - because we just don't trust Blizz to write a convincing peace treaty. Another reason is that peace... is generally quite boring. Stories revolve around conflict, and a war promotes conflict, even when it is abysmally written (as is the case here). There are many plots which could be written during a time of peace, but a lot of them have been written already, or could be written just as well during a war. As for what I wish? I honestly don't really care. What I wish for is well written lore, whether this lore asks me to butcher stinky smelly Humans or slimy swarmy Murlocs is a secondary concern. I will say this, however; The war should not last forever. At some point we will need an event, of some sort, which reconciles the factions, or at least forces a cease fire - if for no other reason than to start a different war, between different factions. This event could be the Siege of Orgrimmar(/pray for an actual siege), it could be three expansions down the line, it could be the foundation for WoW2/WC4, or it could be conveniently hidden in some obscure novel. This event will need to happen because the Horde vs. Alliance war will eventually grow stale. When things grow stale, they must change. The only real question is when. |
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A legitimate reason for the Alliance to not take advantage of this monstrous Horde divide will be a difficult task in my opinion.
Imagine your enemy's armies fighting in a civil war that has been their most major, only to then aid them to rebuild their strength so that again they become a formidable opponent and you remain enemies again; would not make sense at first glimpse. For this to work, there must be a double-cross of some sort; a false promise from a faction leader so that the Horde and Alliance divide after negotiations of allegiance. Thoughts? |
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My hope is that Jaina shanks Thrall in the back,blaming him for being such a massive tool as to put Garrosh on the throne and the Alliance quickly withdraws before the poopstorm can come crashing down around 'em. That is as close as 'salvageable' this whole thing sounds.
But who am I kidding? Green Jesus will just be ressurected in forty days. |
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I heard a lot of people who want Orgrimmar destroyed, the whole Horde disbanded, etc. This wouldn't be a good thing. What would remain of the honour and justice that the Alliance fights for when they kill not only the bloodthirsty warriors, but also the innocent people? (Yes, the Horde has innocent people in it).
If Varian would allow them to take back their city in the end, and rebuild it (if it is destroyed in the siege, or severely damaged) then that would show the greatness of the Alliance, although it may seem like retreating. Their greatness lies in honour and justice. By just letting them burn down everything and kill every last Horde, they would lose that, and with that, everything that the Alliance stands for would also be lost. |
Do not want it to happen, but the alliance should be TRYING to make it happen, and besides having a few non combatants in the horde does not get them off the hook, I would not bat an eyelid and would try to destroy them because the horde has really beaten the alliance bad and this has happened after several treaties have already been breached, like historyh repeating itself.
The alliance has no reason to spare or help monsters (alliance point of view) that invaded their planet, have tried to exterminate them, have broken peace traties, have conquered entire areas of alliance, venerate war criminals of the old horde while claiming they want peace, show a lack of interest in peace summits while claiming they WANT to wage war with the alliance and take what they need (the orcs are said to have applauded Garrosh becoming warchief), inviting enemies of the alliance into the horde and during peace treaties keep attacking the alliance or prepare to, are know employing even more servents of the previous lich king and are forcibly creating more undead, try to assassinate leaders of the alliance (thoras Trollbane and nearly Tyrande) and enslaved the king of Stormwind. I do not want the horde extermianted but the alliance are stupid if they just accept the hordes defeat, better yet the alliance does heavy damage but is forced to pull back from a horde counter attack or some other problem. |
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While i agree with you on this i just can't see how the alliance could be forced to retreat if it wasn't for some horrible plot twist like getting shelled by pocket nukes or whole towns popping up all around them(town in a box, Sigh). This simply is a situation where i (realistically) just can't see the Alliance losing. In other words i believe the writers have cornered themselves by giving away too much "Just about(halfway) done"- material too fast, so my tip is prepare for nukes and yet another defeat (alliance) Guess we'll just have to wait and see |
