Topic
Searing Totem - Enough is enough.
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Edited by Masztaar on 01/05/12 21:28 (BST)
Yeah the guardian part is true. Try youtubing it and you'll see them doing nothing for the first seconds of their duration :/ EDIT:
I agree fully. Problem is that we've had one of those guys in this thread who didn't think before he posted (a problem on all forums everywhere i guess). I still haven't gotten Spine HC down (only Madness HC) as we in the guild felt that it wasn't worth the risk of bringing me along if at the last part the DPS wasn't high enough by the margin that the searing flames + lava lash damage does over the time the tendon is active. Will hopefully be in the raid next time though. A 20% nerf later. |
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Well, from what I see they're doing something, but not right away. I wonder how the hell do you control them? "Prefer to attack targets with stormstrike and flame shock"? Oh wait, don't we all know where ever the hell that train is headed to.
I can kinda see removing stun from wolves with the introduction of capacitor totem, but be honest now, I used wolves cause I saw someone channeling something or when I was going in for a kill. A good quick 2 second stun always did the trick, ok, well, almost always. Now, instead we're gonna have a 5 hp totem that takes FIVE SECONDS to charge up and then stun, gee, thanks a lot, that's gonna help! The worst about this is that there is zero, like, zero mention of searing flames mechanic. Added to fire elemental? Problem sol--no wait, it isn't. It is ridiculous how it's nowhere to be seen. I know that when you play a class, your class seems broken beyond comprehension, but this is ridiculous. Searing totem is a huge - a major, even, part of an ehnancement (and a bulk of elemental aswell, to an extent) shaman's dps, but instead they decide to give us a viable cooldown in the form of fire elemental that uses the same broken-butt mechanic as our current totem? With wolves probably following up the same chain of "prefers to attack" we're looking to be sitting screwed for another xpac until the word gets out to a dev or something. Following on my "when you play a class, your class seems broken" thing. Of course there's a lot of other classes (no, I can't name any) with QoL issues, but come now. It's not that we're whining because enhancement dps is lower than rogues (cause otherwise they don't feel special) or something, it's because the thing is proper broken and the people responsible can't wrap their heads around how could something they thought that would be incredibly new and refreshing to shamans be broken so beyond comprehension. At least I find consolation being stuck at the bottom of a barrel with people that know their deal and throw these interesting, well-constructed posts out that are actually a good read. |
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I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. They probably have it on their goal list to give us more reliance on totems. Which makes sense, class identity and all. If you think about it, they could trivially remove a Rogue's dependency on poisons entirely, but they won't. For a similar reason, class identity. But the thing is, sometimes - and Searing Totem is one such case - this inherently clashes with class balance because the underlying game engine is driven to it's limits. In the case of Searing Totem the targetting mechanics just sometimes fail, just like pets sometimes path around oddly, or NPCs do. Iff this targetting would work out well every time, we'd not have a real issue here. But from a Dev-perspective, the question is what do you do. If you cut the totem as a result of the pathing problems, you set a precedent by which you end up removing pet-reliance of Hunters/Warlocks down the line, because the same logic applies. I reckon their meetings include checks on whether someone had an idea how to re-do the totem reliance, keeping it, but removing the issue of Searing Totem specifically. To give an idea - in case a CM reads this and wants to pass it along - have both Ele and Enh have their own version of Searing Totem (replaces the base totem, Resto keeps it): Searing Blast Totem (Elemental, replaces Searing Totem) Every time you cast Lava Burst on a target, up to once every 3s, the totem will cast a 3s casting Searing Blast on the same target, hitting for damage equal to ~2,5 Searing Flames hits. Not much, but more controllable. Engulfing Flames Totem (Enhancement, replaces Searing Totem) Casts Engulfing Flames on the Shaman, causing a stack of Engulfing Heat. This increases damage by Lava Lash just like the Searing Flames debuff does right now, and is discharged for a DoT when you use Lava Lash. |
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I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. They probably have it on their goal list to give us more reliance on totems. Which makes sense, class identity and all. If you think about it, they could trivially remove a Rogue's dependency on poisons entirely, but they won't. For a similar reason, class identity. I think you are comparing different things here. Rogue poisons will always be applied to the target the Rogue is beating on. Searing totem doesn't. And in all honesty Carrigan, do you really think that Rogues would go two years without a fix to their poisons if they were built on a targeting mechanic similar to Searing Totem? Not a chance my friend.
You simply swallow your pride, admit that it was a bad idea to start with, apologize to your paying customers for not listening to them, or even acknowledging that there is a problem for an entire expansion and then you proceed to pick out the best suggestion from the pile of possible solutions for the problem, including input such as yours and other we have seen in various forum posts throughout Cataclysm. And no, I can't see how changing Searing Totem removes pet-reliance for Hunters/Warlocks down the line. Pets can be instructed to attack a target directly by a specific command, Searing Totem can not, which I think I have given sufficient proof of before in this thread. Besides, we aren't a pet class, and in MoP even less so considering that they made our wolves guardians, so the difference is huge. |
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Edited by Carrigan on 02/05/12 11:14 (BST)
You simply swallow your pride, admit that it was a bad idea to start with, apologize to your paying customers for not listening to them, or even acknowledging that there is a problem for an entire expansion and then you proceed to pick out the best suggestion from the pile of possible solutions for the problem, including input such as yours and other we have seen in various forum posts throughout Cataclysm. That'd be a first in the gaming development industry, I give you that. It's highly unlikely anyone would do that. Management would go frothing at the mouth if the dev team posts an apology (indicating things have been seriously screwed up) on their own, and if they pass it to CR instead, it'd get changed right there. Instead they'd - and tell me if this sounds like something you read in the past :P - post about it being looked into. As far as solutions go, there are in fact very very few which do not remove the totem-requirement entirely. And those usually hinge on fixing the targetting mechanism, at which point you might as well just leave things as they are now - if the pet targetting code worked 100% flawless, we'd have very few complaints in the first place. There's also probably a point somewhere on the project backlog that they need to decide whether to keep the whole Searing Flames (or just bake higher damage into all other skills to compensate for losing the bonus and DoT) , but that's the kind of stuff you keep pushing back as a dev team, looking for a fix which fixes the issue instead of scraping it. Scraping it would imply you're admitting it doesn't work, see the first point about the Management. If you enjoy your wage, you tend to not attempt such "coups".
No the problem is that you're - as a dev-team - ultimately deciding you cannot fix the pet targetting code, and hence you'll do a workaround by removing the reliance on it (for Enh Shamans). The problem is, this means your default reply - as a dev team - then becomes to circumvent the code (for simple programming consistency), so when the Succubus fails to auto-seduce a target which is CCing her Master, the answer becomes to make the Seduce a reactive proc which she applies to the Warlock, so she isn't involved in the proc when it has to happen. Yes, pets can be instructed. But while that lessens the impact the sometimes buggy pet-code has on their master's performance, it doesn't remove it. So there'd be an issue there. |
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Mind you, I'm not happy with Searing Totem works right now.
I agree with the dev-team (at least in a way) that just fixing the damn targetting code would be a super-clean and nice fix. It'd also fix a plethora of other issues in the game. However, while one can notice they improved this multiple times, I doubt it can ever be done truly well. And while pets can mitigate the problems in a way (what happens when they can't was evident during the early Spine days, where our Searing Totem was the least of a raid's worries compared to Hunter, DK and Warlock pets completely despawning and counting as dead every time the armour plate went up), we rely on the totem establishing LoS to the target and correctly acquiring it, without being able to re-force it later. In other words I'd look for a solution (like I posted above) which keeps the "essence" of using a totem as a Lava Lash damage increase, but circumventing the specific Totem -> aggro trigger- > targetting -> nuking chain, which causes issues either on the third or fourth step. Hence, a totem which nukes the Shaman, applying a buff. Keeps hte whole mechanic, including the totem casting spells, removes a lot of problematic components. It might be a bit of an issue on a dev side however, because as I said above, this is purely a workaround. And workarounds are often something the company doesn't like. At all. |
I definately like this! |
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That's a lot to reply to Carrigan, and I'm having a pretty rough day at work, so I'll keep it short.
Personally I don't feel we have to get rid of the Searing Totem, it can still be there, spitting fire, like it did before, and be a part of our total damage output, but I don't want my Lava Lash to rely on it spitting on my main target 100% of the time (provided it's not breaking CC or whatever). So I don't see any problem with the most reliable idea - make it stack on us instead. This is where I just don't understand why the developers seem so reluctant to meet us half way. It must be the absolutely easiest thing to do, and they would make a lot of Enhancers very happy by doing it. So why insist on keeping a flaky system that doesn't work when the fix is so easy, compared to writing a smart-enough AI that work under all circumstances? It is just beyond me. |
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Yeah, some insight into the dev-process would be really handy in understanding this. Personally from work experience (the little I have :$ ) I would guess maybe someone told the Management a while ago that "We're fixing the pet code, and then all pets are going to be awesome and sparkly and dispense bacon when you click on them!", and now no one dares tell them it can't be done, and they'll have to think about replacement ideas for some things.
Could be. Would be something I could easily imagine happening in a big company as Blizzard. ;) |
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Edited by Masztaar on 03/05/12 00:03 (BST)
I read all the rest and this is the exact point with the entirety of the thread; The only - ONLY - thing that needs to change in actuality is the way the searing flames buff works. I wouldn't mind having to spend a GCD moving the totem forward (in PvP for example) every once in awhile, nor do I dislike the idea of being "tied" to a totem for maximum DPS, but having it NOT WORK in either PvE or PvP makes me angry - to the point where I don't want to keep playing at times. Like I've said before, having this particular totem (or specific mechanic tied to said totem for Enhance shaman only) is the same as bullying an entire spec from viability on true end-game content. What you described in your post is the one idea that would change a problem into something that would actually work, AND actually be fun. |
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I like to PvP almost as much as PvE, and I like the overall playstyle of Enhancement, but what I can't stand is having to redrop Searing Totem every few yards, it really pretty much kills it for me. Yeah, Shaman are supposed to drop totems, but godamn, right now it feels like 50% of my key presses in a BG are dropping ONE TOTEM.
I'm not really looking for a fix on the totem, I'm looking for a fix TO the totem. Stacking weapon debuffs via skills, Flametongue stacking the buff etc, just something simple that would actually make it worth to play Enhancement. |
Problem is that I dont think that'll solve the issue. One thing that would really solve it is if it "wouldn't matter" wich target the searing totem shoots at, but that it could pulse as it shoots, stacking the buff on us. |
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Bump
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could they repair the fact that searing totem needs to be placed down in combat or it wont aggro. example: "out of combat->ST->FS" will not attack target, it needs to be "FS->ST" or "in combat->ST->FS" seems like a waste of GCD in the beginning of castsequence
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This is the one of the things that destroys our "by the book" rotation. However, as we charge a boss we can throw Unleash Elements to get into combat and then as we arrive drop searing totem - but this isn't failsafe. Its funny to me that I have to use the scentence "isn't failsafe" when describing something that should just work the way its described. Anywho, you are right - this is a waste of a GCD and I do it all the time aswell simply because I want to make sure it works (wich it STILL doesn't at more times than reasonable). |
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Edited by Feli on 05/05/12 18:00 (BST)
Strange thing is that it worked once... I remember progress at Valiona HC where I didnt have to replace ST right after FS. I was like: "WTF?! They finally fixed it rly?!" one week or two later it never happened again -> sadface.
Anyway I was happy like a child which gets candy... this small change in ST mechanic is more than enough to make me happy with my shaman. However for some unknown reason it takes years to Blizz to take a look at this. They rather bring whole new expansions, locations even another new class instead of fixing small issue in existing one. Weird. |
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The amount of times on ragaros where searing didnt work until three or four totem put downs is also exceedingly unacceptable. If you fs and then drop your totems it still doenst work sometimes and you can be pouding away for up to 20 secs have to lls off and not even notice until you look at recount and see your 6th. I know this argument has been going on for a long time, but I concur with the comments upon that searing needs to be either removed or work as intended, on beta I had high hopes for it the first few times i used it it seemed to work fine, and then it went back the old problems, targetting wrong mobs, not targetting mobs at all even with fs applied, and its just the same when using fire elemental totem as well, in fact its worse...
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This confirms my greatest fear about this crap. I swear I won't stop making tickets each week unless this turd is fixed at the release of MoP. |
I'm sure every class would wish that. :) |
