The Decline and Fall of Warlocks in Cataclysm

85 Human Warlock
6595
Cynwise continues his thoughtful series on Warlocks

http://cynwise.wordpress.com/warlockery/decline-and-fall/
http://cynwise.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/the-decline-and-fall-of-warlocks-in-cataclysm/
http://cynwise.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/interlude-new-series-on-warlocks-in-cataclysm/

Previous posts:
http://cynwise.wordpress.com/2012/03/23/where-did-all-the-warlocks-go-in-cataclysm/
http://cynwise.wordpress.com/2012/03/25/leveling-data-on-warlocks-is-worse-than-i-thought/
US Battle.net comment thread post:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4253901933

Please comment!
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90 Human Warlock
8000
Interesting read for sure.

One thing to mention here is that (as most players know) you have some 17 or more button presses, clicks, macros etc... to go though in order to do some decent dps (not the highest compared with other classes). Now that would put off alot of players from playing a lock, especially as a demonology warlock as you have the added meta to worry about and timing of every fight as to when to use those abilities to their full potential.

It's one of the more complex classes to play, but although that may put off the majority of players who like the 1, 2, 1, 1, 1 press on a keyboard, I personally find that so dull and even pointless playing as it becomes less of a challenge to get high dps and thus removes some skill from the class.

I love the complexity of Warlocks but don't so much with the end dps reward from all those clicks and timings as it's very hard getting up there with the high roller dps's rankings after a recount review.

Still, if they simplified warlock rotation, clicks etc it would completely change the game play, one that would bring more people to play that class. But, it may also move other off or even quit the game if it's the only class they like to play (not that it matters).
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90 Gnome Warlock
10275
I personally love playing a lock because of the challenge.

It is one of the harder classes to play and thats reflected in logs, if you look at a arcane mage they're pretty much casting 2/3 spells and some other classes are the same.

Whereas were casting 10-15 different spells while keeping dots and other buffs up.

The thing is when I'm playing destro I know when I did something wrong without having to look at logs later. Okay so I didnt keep ISF 95%+ of the time that's why my dps slacked or cut a curse or bane off.

I don't want them to simplify anything. I'm happy with the way things are right now (to an extent)
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
14845
Sure.. I would welcome the complexity of warlocks if there was any sense to it.

I play a demonology Lock and have recently returned to raiding after abandoning it in frustration early on in this expansion. I just gave up. I liked my Locks diversity alot especially at lvl 70 when you could really make different playstyles in pvp and pve by stacking different stats and experimenting with builds. And in Lich King when we were competitive and even fun in Arena. But since Cataclysm its been ridiculous. We have seen all our tricks nerfed or removed and replaced with... as far as I can tell... nothing at all.

We have 4 "bolts" that all do exactly the same with different colours. Which is great. If you like different colours. But they dont actually DO anything to me or my target. There is no procc, nothing stacks, nothing goes BANG. Incinerate, Soulfire, Shadowbolt, even Chaosbolt all does the exact same thing. Nothing at all. Sure a Chaosbolt is just what you need if you are in PvP and are chasing a Rogue with 5000 hp. If you arent, its useless and does the same as any other "bolt" Except its green.

For Affliction its the same story. 4 different dots that all perform exactly the same mundane task. Even Curse of BOOM doesnt go BOOM anymore. They only have different timers and different icons to make the task of refreshing them marginally less dull.

Even Demonology aoe isnt unique anymore. And requires a massive list of buttons to engage. Even with macros the adds on Death Wing are killed by hunters, Druids, DKs before you even get started.

Sure... 1,2,1,1,1,2,1,1,2 like my elemental shammy gets boring as hell but there must be some middle way. There is NO utility or dps output on a Lock that justifies this ridiculous button mashing. There is no dynamics, no tricks, no usefulness. We no longer have a thing thats unique to Locks. That we do best. Especially since the absolute majority of our spells do exactly the same.

What exactly is Searing Pain for? An empty icon. Made redundant by Fel Flame. Which is great. If you need to take down a shammy totem. Otherwise it has no use whatsoever and its our NEW spell. Amazing.

And I havent even got started on the embarrassment one is subjected to in any pvp situation.
Edited by Dieselmink on 02/04/2012 02:21 BST
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71 Tauren Shaman
1130
Warlocks have always been played by a minority. I for one don't understand why it must be so horribly complicated to play. Hopefully things will finally change in MoP.
Edited by Vanillasaman on 02/04/2012 04:26 BST
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90 Human Warlock
18775
Dieselmink: ???

You can't be serious.

02/04/2012 02:03Posted by Dieselmink
And in Lich King when we were competitive and even fun in Arena.
We've been the best DPS class this entire expansion for Arena.

02/04/2012 02:03Posted by Dieselmink
We have 4 "bolts" that all do exactly the same with different colours. Which is great. If you like different colours. But they dont actually DO anything to me or my target. There is no procc, nothing stacks, nothing goes BANG. Incinerate, Soulfire, Shadowbolt, even Chaosbolt all does the exact same thing. Nothing at all. Sure a Chaosbolt is just what you need if you are in PvP and are chasing a Rogue with 5000 hp. If you arent, its useless and does the same as any other "bolt" Except its green.
Soulfire procs a damage buff for destro that is mandatory to keep up, your imp also has a chance to proc an instant SF for you. Soulburn procs flat damage if you have 4piece T13, and you only really use it for SF. How is that not enough procs around one spell for you?

Chaos Bolt is crap though, and SB and Incin are indeed of the same purpose.

02/04/2012 02:03Posted by Dieselmink
For Affliction its the same story. 4 different dots that all perform exactly the same mundane task. Even Curse of BOOM doesnt go BOOM anymore. They only have different timers and different icons to make the task of refreshing them marginally less dull.
Haunt isn't really a DoT, to start with. You'll need to DoT more than one target in most cases. BoD can only be up on one target. You need to keep your Shadow Embrace stacked on your main target, especially during the execute phase. I find spamming SoC much more fun than circle targetted AoEs.

Affliction isn't a spec that's supposed to "go BOOM" at any point in time.

02/04/2012 02:03Posted by Dieselmink
What exactly is Searing Pain for? An empty icon. Made redundant by Fel Flame. Which is great. If you need to take down a shammy totem. Otherwise it has no use whatsoever and its our NEW spell. Amazing.
Consider using it when moving.

And indeed demonology has too many buttons to press and too long of a build up, as well as being too reliant on cooldowns (they mean too much for single DPS while also being required to do good AoE). I hate the spec. But affliction and destro are perfectly fine and are fun to play, just need to fix numbers on chaos bolt and some bugs/inconsistencies. Not that it matters anymore at this point, but yeah.
Edited by Thaya on 03/04/2012 08:19 BST
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
14845
Soulfire procs a haste buff for destro that is mandatory to keep up


Oh come on. Dont teach me how my Lock works. Use fel flame when moving... Christ.. As if I didnt know.

Im saying all lock spells are insanely useless compared to OTHER classes. I know what the different buttons do on my Lock. There is no utility or dps output to match the insane complexity. Were playing a nerfed class.

Locks are fine in Arena DEPENDING on your 2 other arena friends that actually have to provide the kills and the healing. A Lock on his own is completely and utterly useless in any pvp situation. How you can be ooh so happy with that is a mystery to me.

We somehow became a "support class" unable to kill ANY other class in 1v1. Sorry but I didnt sign up for this.

And our spell rotation... Is just difficult. Its not clever. Its not smart. There is no procc, no stacking buff, nothing that goes BOM. Its just.... difficult for the sakes of being difficult.

They had 10 patches now to "fix" chaosbolt if they really wanted to. But they somewhow seem to think its perfectly fine. I left my Lock, and the entire game, because I was tired of waiting for the next patch to come along and "fix" it all. Because it never happened. And the only conclusion I can draw from that is that Blizzard thinks were fine.

But you see... Me and thousands of others. We didnt cancel our accounts. Because we have time invested in our characters and hope they will improve. So blizzard dont quite get the message that were hating our Locks. Ooh Im sure you dont hate yours but... There are 6% Locks now... Which is the least played class. But there is another important factor. Which is how many hours are spent on these Locks compared to other classes.
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02/04/2012 05:15Posted by Thaya
Soulfire procs a haste buff for destro that is mandatory to keep up, as well as flat damage if you have 4piece T13. You also have a chance to proc an instant SF as destro

It is just sad to see someone who obviously plays his lock very serious has no idea what he is talking about
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90 Undead Warlock
Raw
0
We somehow became a "support class" unable to kill ANY other class in 1v1. Sorry but I didnt sign up for this.


Huh? Sure, affli might not be the greatest for 1v1, but destro is quite shining there. Of course, destro could use buffing and improving for PvP, i.e. stopped being forced into using imp for pvp, but saying that we are unable to kill anything is bollocks.
Edited by Demidov on 02/04/2012 16:27 BST
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90 Undead Warlock
10695

You can't be serious.

Soulfire procs a haste buff


/facepalm
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90 Human Warlock
8000
An example of complexity JUST talking about the single hit spells:

Demonology Warlock:
Casting SB, click, click (molten core procs), casting INC, click, click, (crap on the floor) Casting teleport, click, Casting SB, click, click (decimation time), Casting Soulfire, click, click (Freebie SB procs from glyph), Casting SB, click (moltem core procs), Casting INC, click, (crap on the floor, !@#$e! Need to move) Casting felflame, click, (moltem core still proced) Casting INC, click, click, (Back to soulfire as still in desimation), Casting soulfire, click, click, etc.....

That's a typical sequence of the single casting spells for a demonology warlock. Now, add all those dots and maintaining them on your target (more likely targets). And worrying about your health, channeling, life tap, crap on the floor, more adds (AOE), and controlling your pet and whatnot. Just make sure, you're sober when you start the boss fights ;)

I could fill countless paragraphs with this kind of stuff just for one fight in order to maintain the max dps you can possibly get from a lock (and a mage will still out dps you with their 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2 etc....).
Edited by Namoni on 02/04/2012 23:27 BST
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85 Human Warlock
6595
Honestly I dont mind playing a unpopuler class, which makes me more special, even a harder "rotation" if its smart and rewarding.

What I hate is as quoted from cynwise:

I think a lot of this is because the rotations are unforgiving – if the Warlock player makes a single mistake, they’ll lose a substantial portion of their DPS. Players in the top raid tier are excellent players – they don’t make those small mistakes the majority of the playerbase makes. They time their refreshes to procs, they can juggle 13 debuffs across 3 mobs. That’s pretty damn impressive! But it means that if the class is balanced around those players, the small mistakes the majority of players make will add up. And if the class is competing against classes who can AoE or multidot with 2 buttons and no debuff tracking … well, then we have a real problem.
Edited by Bulison on 03/04/2012 03:33 BST
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90 Human Warlock
18775
Locks are fine in Arena DEPENDING on your 2 other arena friends that actually have to provide the kills and the healing. A Lock on his own is completely and utterly useless in any pvp situation. How you can be ooh so happy with that is a mystery to me.

We somehow became a "support class" unable to kill ANY other class in 1v1. Sorry but I didnt sign up for this.

The part of your post I replied to mentioned Arena specifically, not PvP in general. You always depend on your teammates in Arena, regardless of class.

But if you really want to talk about this, then this only has to do with destro being bad. Affliction has always been a weak 1v1 spec, even in WotLK. And yes, I agree that destro being trash is a problem they refused to fix for the entire expansion, so let's not make this a PvP discussion from here on.

02/04/2012 15:09Posted by Dieselmink
And our spell rotation... Is just difficult. Its not clever. Its not smart. There is no procc, no stacking buff, nothing that goes BOM. Its just.... difficult for the sakes of being difficult.

You're just repeating now. I guess there's no point in this conversation.

02/04/2012 15:30Posted by Envý
It is just sad to see someone who obviously plays his lock very serious has no idea what he is talking about

02/04/2012 21:23Posted by Jamezke
/facepalm

I'm sorry dudes. A damage buff, not a haste buff. That doesn't affect my point in any way, however, as ISF is still mandatory to keep up. And you don't really use Soulburn for anything other than SF as destro, I guess I kind of lost my thought somewhere while typing that and forgot to mention SB. We're all human, yes?

Honestly I dont mind playing a unpopuler class, which makes me more special, even a harder "rotation" if its smart and rewarding.

What I hate is as quoted from cynwise:

I think a lot of this is because the rotations are unforgiving – if the Warlock player makes a single mistake, they’ll lose a substantial portion of their DPS. Players in the top raid tier are excellent players – they don’t make those small mistakes the majority of the playerbase makes. They time their refreshes to procs, they can juggle 13 debuffs across 3 mobs. That’s pretty damn impressive! But it means that if the class is balanced around those players, the small mistakes the majority of players make will add up. And if the class is competing against classes who can AoE or multidot with 2 buttons and no debuff tracking … well, then we have a real problem.

I'd say this only really applies to demonology cooldown usage. The other specs have about the same margin for error as other classes, at least classes I play(ed) - elemental/enhancement shaman, all specs of DK, shadow priest and mage.

In general, demonology is way too reliant on using its cooldowns correctly, and sometimes even on Impending Doom procs. It's a really badly designed spec. I just disagree that the whole class is badly designed because of this.
Edited by Thaya on 03/04/2012 08:15 BST
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85 Human Warlock
6595
03/04/2012 07:55Posted by Thaya
I'd say this only really applies to demonology cooldown usage. The other specs have about the same margin for error as other classes, at least classes I play(ed) - elemental/enhancement shaman, all specs of DK, shadow priest and mage.


Demonology is the highest DPS in all DS HC Bosses at the moment (ref: worldoflogs), thus in current High End PVE , we stil have a unforgiving spec, which needs you to be a Melee Range Caster to make proper Damage, have the right Pet out (even if the situation in RNG driven). Manage zillion DoTs, Debuffs, Buffs, and CDs - VERY unforgivingly.

Sorry m8, i raid on my Rogue/DK/Druid/Mage , all of them much worse geared can pull decent DPS CONSISTENTLY - My Lock does Meh to Well depending on Boss only if i dont make any mistake, otherwise its DPS drops below anything i have seen.

Not to mention things like :
- You dont notice in time your Pet died on nonAoE-AoE of Hagara.
- Your teammate Mage and SPriest bugging you for DI before fight, ask for rez during fight cause they tried to beat each other on DPS at Ultrax and died.
- You havent informed your friends your Rez CD who you rezed last try already, asking you to rez again and begging for answer. ( I type)
- If you stay (willingly or not) with ranged on Zon'ozz.
- If you have Felguard but you dont get Dark Globule at Yor, or worse have Fire Mage and/or Hunter who AoE-kills adds faster then you can.
- Your raid doesnt wait for your 6 min CD after last wipe before pulling.

And oh yeah you do manage 6 DoTs 3 Debuffs, x CDs, y Buffs, run and flame in Melee/ use your aura in Meta in Melee - cause they increase your Pets damage - just to be close to DPS with the Shadow Priest (arent we the shadow master), or the Boomkin ( arent we the DoT master). Forget about the Fire Mage - he is the real Mage anyways right?

As long as you juggle 23 balls the DPS is OK, but what if one of the balls drops??
Edited by Bulison on 03/04/2012 12:55 BST
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90 Human Warlock
14380
03/04/2012 12:32Posted by Bulison
As long as you juggle 23 balls the DPS is OK, but what if one of the balls drops??

That is the current way Warlocks work at the moment, many damage sources, zero resource worries. If you don't like it, try another class is all I can suggest. Things are changing in MoP though, where we'll be much more worried about resource management that we ever have been previously, with substantially 'streamlined' rotations.
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90 Human Warlock
18775
03/04/2012 12:32Posted by Bulison
Demonology is the highest DPS in all DS HC Bosses at the moment (ref: worldoflogs), thus in current High End PVE , we stil have a unforgiving spec, which needs you to be a Melee Range Caster to make proper Damage, have the right Pet out (even if the situation in RNG driven). Manage zillion DoTs, Debuffs, Buffs, and CDs - VERY unforgivingly.

Let's start with facts:
- demo parses are lowest on Morchok;
- not the highest on Zonozz (furthermore, the two top demo logs have damage done only to Zonozz and Claw - whether you consider such logs relevant or not is up to you. Demo is the worst spec for progress here);
- the top demo parse for Warmaster is 5k DPS above the other demo parses, I couldn't find what exactly he did but I'd ignore that parse. Affliction is pretty much tailored for this boss and is the best spec here, I'd argue demo is the worst here;
- there are 23 100k+ DPS parses for affliction, and 0 for demo on Madness.

If I was you, though, I'd never trust world of logs top parses. People abuse a lot just to find ways to be on top there. The top 5 parses are always in some way abused - it's not exactly hard when you're in a high ranked guild and farming this content with ease.

If you still want to look at statistics, just use this: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/100/14/60/default/#1o

This parses the logs on WoL and builds graphs. Top 100 for the last 2 months, by default. (Don't be mad at me if I'm being captain obvious here and you already knew.)

So, realistically there's only three bosses where demonology is the best spec: Ultraxion, Yorsahj and Spine. And I wouldn't even trust any of this data for Spine, just too easy to AoE adds - affliction actually beats demo at this, as shown by the #1 log from WoL.

I fully agree with you that demonology is a very clunky spec while at the same time being very unforgiving. That's on top of just being unnecessarily complex (e.g. pet twisting, moonwell chalice last tier, stuff like that). It suffers way too much from movement and target switches, and its AoE relies on having cooldowns up - the same cooldowns that you rely heavily on for single target damage. It has the longest ramp up time of all specs and a spell with melee range requirement. It basically requires a Patchwerk fight to be able to use all of its potential, even in theory, and the only reason its topping on Yorsahj is getting lucky with adds syncing with cooldowns.

But what makes you think that demonology is our "highest DPS spec" and its mandatory to run it is beyond me. The class isn't broken - demonology is. Our specs are really balanced when it comes to raw output (look at top Ultraxion parses - this is one of the rare cases where it makes sense to compare top parses), so if you don't like demonology mechanics and how it works on DS bosses, just don't play it. The other two specs have pretty fluent and much more comfortable playstyles.

P.S.
Regarding those "things":
- if you don't notice your pet dying, it's your fault;
- just give DI to the SP no matter what;
- if you can't talk on vent, that's your problem - any class with a battle res experiences the same issue if they type;
- the raid usually doesn't wait for elemental shaman totems or army of the dead too, we're not alone in this.
Edited by Thaya on 03/04/2012 16:12 BST
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90 Undead Warlock
10695
tbh, for this tier specifiqly, ive really enjoyed playing my warlock, as we are imo the only class that wasnt excactly pidgeonholed into a specifiq spec to do good dps.
simulations have shown multiple times that all 3 spec are close to one another when it comes to damage done.
at the beginning of the tier, normal mode, i went destro followed by demo once we cleared it.
for our hc progress i was destro at start, quickly respecced to affli cuz of its awesomeness when having to multidot and move alot. now that we are at spine, im recquired to play demo again and since first 6 are on farm for us, im keeping the spec for all encounters and i like it alot.
i can safely say that allthough some encounters favor certain specs,the difference in the dps i did in the different specs was at max 3-6k. only real downside imo is that when u like to go demo when ur either destro/affli u need to reforge ur gear again and again cuz the statweights differ.

I played demo throughout FL so im pretty used to it, in fact all specs are easy when mastered imo.
main concern is still encounter knowlegde in the first place, especially for demo becuz u have to know when to time ur cds on different phases of the fights.
so my 2 cents into playing demo properly are:
1) encounter knowledge
2) rotation/priotity knowledge
3) with a few easy macros ull go along way into making the spec easier 2 play really

the only problem i see lots is that often players that play "easier" classes tend to let go of their locks becuz they find it too hard/clunky when they can just log a toon and spam 2-4 buttons with a clc addon that tells them what to push and fall asleep when topping meters.....
i find that very unrewarding, and everytime i top the meters in my guild by sweating my hands off really does feel rewarding!
i have a dk (reall easy to play)/drood (easy to play)/mage(nothing to add here Oo faceroll)/priest (equally fun as my lock really), and from all these classes id still prefer my lock anyday

and looking at MoP changes, things will get easier as they are now imo, so for new players id think they have an easier time learning the ways of warlockism XD
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85 Human Warlock
6595
Hi Thaya,

I understand we agree on Demonology is "broken" (used the word to make the story short).

I wasnt referring to top 5 parses but a general scan of top 50 Warlock per spec DPS, before DS nerfs. (Will check and point to my reference later on a seperate post).

Using your reference site; 10 men stats show Demo makes 4K more DPS than Affli 2 K more than destro:
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/100/14/60/median/#1o

My own experience is that I can pull 5K more DPS with Demo when it works, or half of affli when it doesnt. I dont like destro playstyle and dont play it at all.

Regarding those "things":
- if you don't notice your pet dying, it's your fault;
- just give DI to the SP no matter what;
- if you can't talk on vent, that's your problem - any class with a battle res experiences the same issue if they type;
- the raid usually doesn't wait for elemental shaman totems or army of the dead too, we're not alone in this.


I believe you understand that the above given answers id to the part i am half jokingly whining, however the truth i wanted to give was:

The pet dying at Hagara is a Bug or whatever you call it, cause my pets AoE damage "Avoidence" doesnt work against Hagara's obvious AoE, cause its considered single damage to 10 men :).

Aside from that I loose a beafy part of my DPS - hence "unforgiving"

DI is a stupid idea, it generates more fuzz and fights than necessary, I admit new rogue tear-set bonus makes Tricks stupider.

Let the rez be the job of a Healer ffs, not a 23 balls juggler DPS or make it instant cast, or make it 5 sec cast.

I never though i am alone , However Doomguard id not compared to army of Deaths lousy DPS, it just drops from 1.2M to 0.6M if not aligned with my 5 procs the problem is how much I am punished compared to other classes for the same level of mistakes.

It is not only we make a lot more to make the same DPS, worse is we need to make much much less mistakes compared to other classes- or you do half of their DPS :)

Its a good thing that we have 3 vialable specs, wait I can only have 2 :(
Ahh what am i gonna do with my PVP Affli spec??

Hmm respec/retalent/re-reforge EVERY Boss??

I dont mind being minority - I like it.
I like the playstyle but dont want my DPS be punished immensely, while already doing a lot more than a hunter to achieve less.
Edited by Bulison on 03/04/2012 18:34 BST
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90 Human Warlock
18775
Our reference sites use the exact same data. Raidbots data comes from WoL public parses. It parses all the info on WoL and creates graphs.

I don't think that looking at overall average DPS gives you any good estimate. Look at separate bosses instead. Although I can't really explain why demonology comes out higher on Morchok (in 10man you actually HAVE to run, unlike 25). On Zonozz, it seems like all parses for demo locks have them only cleaving boss/claw (checked top10 on WoL). Spine is abused even more. Everything else I said for 25man still holds true for 10man.

I honestly doubt that you pull 5k more DPS as demo than as affli on, for example, Warmaster. I'd much rather be affliction on Zonozz and actually be useful in dark phase than play demo if I was progressing on the fight.

Oh and while we're still here, try to select "all parses" as data set on raidbots instead of top100. Notice how big of a difference it makes. I think it gives you an even more realistic picture of it.

You don't need to respec for every boss unless you want to optimize to the max, no. If I was in a hardcore guild competing for ranks on heroic boss kills, I'd do that. But for farm bosses, semi-pug raids or farm content? nah, I'll just play the spec I enjoy the most.

I don't know, it just doesn't feel like affliction or destro pay much for doing mistakes. Not that much more than other classes, anyway. Demonology - yeah, if you screw up cooldowns, you're done.

Replying to your edit:
I never though i am alone , However Doomguard id not compared to army of Deaths lousy DPS, it just drops from 1.2M to 0.6M if not aligned with my 5 procs the problem is how much I am punished compared to other classes for the same level of mistakes.

What procs are those? It only scales with intellect procs. I don't know what trinkets you're running, but for me I only have to align it with power torrent and 10 stacks of will of unbinding.
Edited by Thaya on 03/04/2012 23:24 BST
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85 Human Warlock
6595

What procs are those? It only scales with intellect procs. I don't know what trinkets you're running, but for me I only have to align it with power torrent and 10 stacks of will of unbinding.


Lightweave, Power Torrent, Will of Unbinding, 4-Set Bonus, Volcanic Potion (i know its not a proc).

Thanks for the site by the way, nice reference. I checked all bosses, just didnt write here, 5/8 is demo highest DPS.

At the end of the day, it doesnt matter any more; i gave up doing DS altogether with my Lock, is not worth the trouble or humiliation. Hence the title :)
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