World of Warcraft®

TLDR: Actually, I wish there was a way to sum up the following two posts into one. But as this is very diverse and expansive, I haven't yet found a way to sum it for those unable or unwanting to read it. Read this in a span of a few days if you feel it too much, but however you choose, please do take a few moments to read it, as we are all in some way affected by it.

I'll start with a reassurance. I am not in anyway stating that I have the only right answers, nor am I saying I find myself better than others for stating suggestions. I am in no way saying that I am unhappy with the server's community, nor am I targeting anyone. While I may have to state some harder-to-swallow situations, I want people to know I am actually quite optimistic that we can make it work. Also, bear in mind that anything I will mention, from here on, about DMF's situation is really no different from the situation most servers are facing now.

Perhaps you know of one--a friend or member of a guild/community who has left either the server or the game for newer horizons. Maybe you are angry at them for making this choice. You don't think they tried hard enough. You don't understand how they could do this to you, want to lash out but don't want to hurt them.

Or maybe, hopefully, you have grown to understand their decision, know it was not yours to make for them, accept that this game can mean differently to others, and thus are perfectly fine with their decision. However you feel, the result is the same: someone close to you has left, and while you may see them on battlenet, or messenger, or even off computer entirely, they're not on this server with you. It's worse if you don't see them at all, because then you feel isolated. It leaves you to enjoy or try to enjoy, this game without them.

And for those who haven't witnessed a friend doing this, but have just seen the loss of players, this may also have hit you just as bad. Frustration, maybe. Anger, perhaps. Acceptance and understanding is what we all should strive for. Or maybe you feel the same. Maybe you're currently teetering on the brink, having a last laugh, hoping for good changes, or waiting for that next big free migration to pack up. Maybe you're sticking around to see what the new expansion will bring before you make your final decision.

The reasons range anywhere from issues with lore, to lacking players to enjoy the game with, to getting bored with game content. And basically, ANY of these issues can result in loss of faith in a server, or the game. Some will say that we must realize that WoW is an older game, and if Blizz doesn't step up to the plate and match the heat the other games are packing, they may find themselves striking out. Some are not yet ready to say that.

Whatever your opinion on that matter, the situation ends up the same. Each time someone leaves, it has a great risk to lower the morale yet a little further for those wishing to stay and make this work. The lowering of population has hit us all. RPers, PVPers, PVErs, and those who love a bit of everything, are finding it harder and harder to enjoy this game, though they so desperately don't want to jump on the bandwagon and leave as well.

There is no saying which groups are suffering more. I am seeing in threads here that raiders are taking massive blows. I have heard PVPers are getting frustrated of the lack of player-made world battle encounters. RPers have lost many volunteers to help in events, as well as attend them. Hence, on all fronts, those who have tried so hard to plan raids, or world PVP or RP events all may find themselves lacking the morale to continue doing so. And that leaves less events to attend. Less random encounters. As a result, that brings the potential for more people thinking "I might as well just leave". More people leave, less people attend events.

It's more painful if those who leave don't go quietly. Some have found it their mission to tell others what idiots they are for liking a "dying game". I don't know if WoW is dying or not, but regardless, it is not for any of us to shove that opinion into anyone else's face. Posting defaming or demoralizing threads or in game messages to knock the game, the server, or various communities within it is not fair to those still trying to enjoy it.

And it's even worse when no one rises up against that negativity to say otherwise. Before you know it, a chain of responses happen, and it becomes a thread of pure disgust, thus making others feel bad or afraid to state anything positive. And with that positivity lacking, it's only natural for people to start thinking as negatively as the statements. And with those thoughts, they may turn to convincing themselves that they, too, should leave.

I myself have witnessed in the past one person leaving and suddenly the lengthy post he put up stating his reasons sparks off a massive few pages of others stating the reasons why also fell out with the game--even when they'd already gone. It's not needed, and to those who do it, you do not have anything else to prove. You don't need to defend or justify your actions with repeated statements of such. You are not the bad guys here! You never were. We don't blame you for leaving.

To those who felt this the better route for them, to leave server or the game, one does what he/she has to do. Your money is your own, and you deserve to use it to the best way you feel possible. WoW's monthly fee or its paid transfers to other servers without the free migration can be a lot more expensive than some may realize. Your free time is your own, to enjoy it in a way you feel is best. WoW can get old for some. Your reasons to leave a server are your own, be they simple or complex. We all need to go where we feel most comfortable.

But those who stayed still have to be given that chance to move on without you.

For those choosing to remain, we cannot let the exodus of friends demotivate us. This is OUR server! This is OUR game! This is OUR money. OUR free time. And we must fight if we want to keep it. Some may think this growing problem doesn't affect them, because they still have their friends, their little groups, so they are nice and secure. They're content with how things are and feel no desire to care how it's affecting others. But like it or not, as has already been shown in the past, tight-knit--maybe even closed--groups are at the worst risks. All it takes it one or two people to leave before the whole thing falls apart.

And to those who believe that the loss of people from certain groups do not affect them, that is just as untrue. It would be naive to think that RPers don't PVP or PVE, and it would be foolish to think PVEers and PVPers don't RP. DMF is not and should not be seen as a server composed of a few groups, separated by guilds or certain circles. DMF should be a community! Horde or Alliance--raider or RPer, we are all in this together. Some of us may be hurting more than others, but like a snowball, this situation can gather weight and speed before we all feel its impact.

Many say that we worry for nothing, but before saying that in your replies, try to add something more positive rather than complacent to the discussion. Some would insist--and maybe they are right--that come the next expansion everything will be back up and running good. For others, they would say that because WoW is an older game it is normal for it to lose a massive player base and we just have to accept that. Whatever the theories of those in it, right now is the status quo. What is happening now is right in front of us, and there is nothing saying we can't still do something about the situation NOW.

The previous post was stating the possible situation and state of affairs. As would no summary of harsh situation be complete if it didn't come with suggestions to remedy it, these are mine. Once more, not targeting, and not claiming to be better than you, or to have all the answers. If you want, list your own suggestions afterwards. But note now that if those suggestions are only "don't play WoW" or "stop worrying" or "stop whining", then that contributes nothing to the server as a whole and it hurts the community even worse than leaving it entirely. And if one might say "What community?" well, that's what we can try to fix. But we can't fix anything if we give in to cynicism.

FIRST MAJOR PROBLEM: Players feel isolated, or can't find people who want to enjoy the game the same way as them--be it PVP, PVE, or RP.

Possible Solution: Refer to realm forum for information and people of like interests. Post up what you're looking for to see if others want the same.

Problem: Realm forum is never looked at. Posts are bumped off the first page by spam and nonsense threads. Might also be too shy to post a thread by self.

Possible Solution: Set up channels for these things on both factions. Post the availability of those channels, and share the channel names to those interested. What this does is it gives you a united front to ask for others you become familiar with to join you in a like you both enjoy. IE: RP, PVP, PVE. We've done that on Horde side, but for RP. Whisper Sastri, Kaeldon, or Rhyder if you're interested to join that channel. I'll then give you the channel name after we've been convinced you're not just trying to wreck the already-established community in it. You are welcome, as long as you are respectful of others.

Problem: Too many channels. Can't join another.

Possible Solution: Build community guilds that don't force loyalty to just one specific guild. Use it for updates in message of the day, and guild info, to post the important news of the type of game play you're looking for. Refer to the roster to see which players match your interest. Find new people as a result that match your interests. We are doing that on the Horde side, but only for RP so far. Whisper Sastri, Kaeldon, Magnadon, Nurn, Gandraya, Kalthoren, or Rhyder for details if you're interested to join that guild. If one of them aren't available or busy, whisper another.

Problem: Can't join a guild. Already in one and don't want to leave it.

Possible Solution: Join that community guild on an alt, and use it just for keeping in touch with the community for when you are looking for people to interact with.

Problem: All alts are in a guild. Don't want to leave any of them.

Possible Solution: Keep in touch via a free host website and keep in contact with someone from that community guild to get information and updates.

MAJOR PROBLEM: A raiding guild has to be a guild of players loyal to the guild for raid progression to be possible. Gear and skill is important.

Possible Solution: Holding a community guild is definitely acknowledged to be trickier in raiding. I don't consider myself a hardcore raider myself, but I've known those who are, and I've raided before. I'm not sure if it could work, but perhaps it's worth a try. All the inexperienced players/characters would require--if they're motivated--would be one person to lead them. A good raid leader is hard to find, but once you find one, he is invaluable. Those who learn from him can grow to be teachers themselves to go on and help the others with less experience. It's very possible this could strengthen those who are not really core raid quality yet, and before you know it, you may just have more to work with who are.

Problem: For all types of groups: RP, PVP, PVE--doing what you suggest seems like it'll require time and effort. While the desire to make it work may be there, real life gets in the way. And this is not a job. This seems like work.

Possible Solution: If you can't do: teach. A few words, a forum post, a little bit of delegating tasks, and before you know it, people are learning how to follow your example in a good way, while you're away keeping track of the things that need doing and the things you want to do more. A good way to do this might be to form a group of leaders in one guild, so that no one leader feels overtaxed to maintain it. This goes for RPers, PVPers, and PVEers of all walks.

In a raiding guild, they have different class leaders. They have the right idea here--distributing leadership to help ensure the engine that is the guild is working good from all angles. No one brain can hope to have all the ideas, nor can that person be in all places at once. Distribution of help is something we can all learn to do. And it won't take too much effort if it's done right.

SECOND MAJOR PROBLEM: There are so many griefers and those wanting to slam or judge.

Possible Solution: We should try to avoid being so immediately quick to ignore someone we don't understand or agree with. I'm not sure how much it affects raiders, but RPers deal with this a lot. Sometimes from "non RPers" and other times from other RPers. I'll have to say that sometimes the griefing is our own fault. People become angry or frustrated when they're judged or ignored for how they RP their character, and then they turn to snarls and attention-seeking to cause problems for all members of that category of gameplay in general. Sometimes they target those who deserve it. Other times, their anger is taken out on an innocent party, but regardless of how it's done, it is up to all of us to show these angry people another side to us.

If we don't like how someone plays their game, try showing them another way. Do not teach--show options. That means they still have their own choice to work things out for themselves, whether we support their way of doing it or not. But at least we've shown them that we are not closing them out. It is natural for people of like beliefs to gather together. It's how churches were formed. Churches can be welcoming, however. Religion does not have to be closed-minded, but it can be if people within it are not careful. Be VERY careful to not make your type of game play into a closed-minded religion.

Stop generalizing! Too many RPers believe sometimes that raiders and PVPers are horribly rude and can't respect RP. Too many PVPers and raiders sometimes grow to hate RPers for their elitism and snobbery. And while there are some that do fit this bill from all categories, NOT everyone is like that! And if you yourself are certain that YOU are not like that, then it is up to YOU to try showing it to those who think otherwise.

It's probably the hardest thing to do of all the above suggestions, but it's the most important. Do not snarl back at a snarler, for you have proven that angry person right in their mindset of people of your gameplay. Defend your opinions as calmly as possible, apologize that they feel that way, let them know they're welcome to find out there's another side to their argument, and then it's up to them to decide to believe you. But at least you've not contributed to their vicious opinions.

A good thing to remember: anger is a personal emotion, but how we handle it may cause many many casualties.

Problem: Some are just rude for the sake of being rude, or whatever choice word replaces "rude".

Possible Solution: Accept that some are dealing with something in their lives that causes them to be this way. The game front is a great way for people to hide behind an alter ego to say horrible things to others without consequences that they can see. Little do they realize, their actions do have consequences, maybe not in the form of a punch, but their reputation takes a hit, and that in essence effects the amount of people with which they'll get to enjoy the game. For others, all we can do is make note of the possible cry for help. Whether you choose to be a vent for that person or not, that is a choice I can't make for you. But that is an option as well.

Problem: Having personal problems right now that hinders me from putting in effort to help the community in any way.

Possible Solution While we all at some point will get burnt out, or apathetic, or depressed, or dealing with too much on our plate in real life to be bothered with problems in game, we can still cheer on or support those who ARE willing to contribute. That, in itself, is a remarkable way of helping, and it takes no more effort than attending an event to have fun and thanking the person, praising them, letting them know it was awesome, or defending a person when someone else is harassing them. Doing just this alone, and you've contributed something to the health and well being of DMF's community.

All in all, posts following this one could get down deeper into actual suggestions of events, or guild ideas, but I just wanted to cover hopefully the things that we encounter as a basic hindrance to keep us from getting involved in the community.

I am confident that this realm has what it takes to help each other out, for I know that despite our opinions of others at a glance, we all are good people at heart. If we all do our part--however small--we will make a big difference. We can push that snowball back up the hill! And once we’re at the top, we'll find that the view is a lot better from there than it is down where cynical thoughts lie.

An update, as this seems equally significant:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3483868945

And this proves my theory that there are a lot more who want this server to thrive than we may believe. <3 Whether you add your suggestions to her thread or mine, your choice, but just try to add them anyway!

*starts clapping, no really, this deserves an applause*

I found your tl;dr un-fulfilling :(

We can't please em all, Tayen. :) Though I did ask to take some time to read before posting. You probably would have noticed that had you taken the time to read. :P Before posting. *grins* But I'm open for positive and helpful--not cynical--suggestions to make it better.

But thank you, Terzora. ^^ I know it was a lot to read, but I'm glad that you could take the time to do so. More suggestions and things put to action are definitely welcome and appreciated. And make sure to check out Uub's thread. It's for raiding youtube vids mostly, but I'm pretty certain we could do RP ones too. It's yet another good way to bring the server together and help make the realm forum look more presentable and palatable for those looking for a new server to join!

I admire your courage, Sastri! This was an excellent read, and a positive one at that. I too will add my applaus *claps loudly*

We must all make the best of our situations, whatever they may be. Thank you for the post!

And with that, I bump thee *grin*

Thank you for the post Sastri. It's nice to see people standing up for the server/game as a whole. Seeing waves of "THIS GAME IS DYING LOOK AT ALL YOU FAGS PLAYING A DYING GAME LOL" posts on the forums or blizz's facebook is rather annoying and it is always refreshing to see people attempting to take the initiative and do something about our problems rather than point them out loudly.
The lack of population is hitting the PvE section hard on many realms with a lot of guilds I know suffering from a lack of strong applicants. I don't know how it is hitting the PvP folk and the RP folk, but I imagine that it is hitting just as hard. To solve the issue we must, as a realm, do what we can to build community and make Darkmoon Faire a realm that people will want to come to. I'm not sure how this can be achieved though I know that some, Uub and co for example, are trying their utmost. As far as I can see, we just need to build this realm's rep up. We have some guilds that have done well on the PvE front, we have some great PvPers (though I know that many have left D:) and I'm sure the RP is of highest quality (outside of Goldshire and SMC :P), so why don't we celebrate it? The forum is home to too many QQ threads regarding the decline in population, the lack of PuGs, the lack of PvP world events, etc. If you want these things, make them! I don't see any guilds on alliance side, or on the horde side, challenging others to all out pvp war. Why not? I see many people who complain that they aren't raiding as much as they'd like to, yet they don't band together to make PuG groups. Why not?

tl;dr World of Warcraft is an online world, and the driving force of it is the players. Blizzard have a big input, but it is the people sitting at their computers who make the game what it is. If you have a problem with the game, take the initiative and change it or GTFO and play TOR.
Thanks

Tarnkappe

Thank you, Alvie and Tarnkappe! It's nice to see people were able to read through this. The moment I made it I was worried no one would take a gander, due to the length and time needed to get through it. Thanks for letting me know it was not all for naught! <3

As for the RP, from what I'm seeing is it's slowly coming back! I hope the raiding is as well. The Ghost Brigade (horrible name, but will be changing) is always looking for more RP players to join a community-based guild for the sake of getting RPers together. There is an RP channel already made, and it's been seen as a fitting way of bringing people together who don't want to join another guild. And there is the channel from Uub's idea to place everyone on raiding guilds together. All of these are great initiatives! I think the first step is to get people together. Let them see they're not alone, that they're not doing it all for nothing and no gain. And after that, through their empowerment, we'll see more and more working as a team to keep bringing things back. :)

Also:

There is a movement--small of course--to try creating a DMF themed post to place on the blizzard RP forums, raid forums, and pvp forums, for those who might be looking for a server. We would need the help of the server as well, to answer back with their knowledge of certain guilds of all types (raid, pvp, and RP) on this server, raid progression, pvp standings/arena teams, RP plot lines/players of interest to seek out for stories/RP hotspots, and anything really you can think of that we could add to an "Advertisement" post to put out there, for others to see.

I will arrange it. I just need the information to put it together, or I can't do it.

tl;dr World of Warcraft is an online world, and the driving force of it is the players. Blizzard have a big input, but it is the people sitting at their computers who make the game what it is. If you have a problem with the game, take the initiative and change it or GTFO and play TOR.
Thanks

Tarnkappe

I do play ToR, and BioWare has a much more friendly and more pro-player approach to things, i must admit, their first MMO, has gone far smoother at launch and immediately afterwards than WoW did. What i seem to pick up from your message is "Don't like it? lol leave", which isn't really constructive.

To say players are the main problem is in my opinion, absurd, we pay for Blizzard's gold plated cutlery, they should at least pay attention more to the issues in game, and I'm talking cross platform in all aspects, PvP is centered around 3v3 and a FoTM being able to dominate everything (except frost mages of course), PvE has lost appeal, from what i am seeing, many people are having to move to greener pastures to get the teams they need to do their raids, and I'd rather not get into a debate about the -content- of PvE, which as an RPer, most times feels like I'm reading a poorly written fan-fic about a dungeon's storyline.

And the complete disregard for RP players is appalling, we are paying customers just like anyone else, why are our wishes and whims not addressed? Example, more customization for characters, more control over lollers seeking to ruin everything we plan, perhaps an option to enter emptied phased/instanced versions of zones or dungeons, maybe guild halls?

All of these are snubbed by the big cheeses who want nothing more than to get as much money out of us, for least effort.

And yes, i have -done- something about changing things, I've uplifted a few characters and rerolled on Argent Dawn, as much as i loathe to pay the extortionist fees needed to move characters, which is another thing entirely needing addressed, i felt that lingering on such a small realm populated with only a few decent people and the rest of it filled with ego's and kids causing mischief, would be worse than paying a fee to be moved to a realm which, while not perfect, has -significantly- better prospects for me as a player.

tl;dr: Blizzard, not the players have the obligation to improve things, or the game will fall apart faster than a North Korean rocket test Pokemon, April Fool Chinese caricatures, and yet more recycled garbage is not an -improvement-.

/rant over

What people often seem to forget is that they, and everyone else in it, are playing this game for a reason: To enjoy themselves.

It's amazing how people can turn playing WoW into enough of a habit that they sit down bored and watch the antics of some npc for an hour or to start harassing other players or running a dungeon that they absolutely don't feel like doing and taking that out on the other people in the party.

To those people: If you're not enjoying yourself, do something about it! Go play a different game or make some coffee or (gasp) get outside! Playing WoW is not an obligation.

@Haramrae: I want to be pointed to the statements that would make people think any of us here are saying that it's an obligation. So far, what this thread has been about is improving the atmosphere for those who still love WoW, but wouldl ove to get more out of it that they can control themselves. I think that's different and an unfair prejudgement that this thread--if that is what you're implying--is forcing people to work or convincing people they need to be here. That is and never was, the purpose of this thread.

@ Derisera: Restating the issue does not help change things for those who still want to be here. As I have made abundantly clear before--do not use your replies to simply spew negativity or vitriol about the game or the community on it. It isn't going to help this server, anyone's experiences, and it certainly does not look good on those who feel it still their right to justify their decisions or act like theirs is the only right one. We've been through this circus act for countless times before, and it always ends the same.

There are enough people still here who want to be here, and who do love the game, and who don't want to have to give up because a handful of people would preach to them how horrible things are. They are the ones this thread is for, not those who have decided they need to go elsewhere.

As I already stated in the OP: If you left, then I'm happy you were able to find a place that made you feel more comfortable, but it is not your right to make it out with implications (as do the negative posts cause) that people who remain are idiots for some reason for staying. We all have to do what makes us happy on the game. That does NOT mean we can't do something about improving things along the way.

I am asking for suggestions, acknowledgements, etc. I am not saying I don't want to hear your negative opinions. I am saying that if you are to speak them, do not JUST speak them in your post. Offer up suggestions to improve the things you're quoting as in a bad state. And if you are going to laughingly say that leaving the server as your only suggestion, then do us a favor and don't post here at all. This is a thread for growth. Not more beating down.

Now for those reading this thread and actually understanding what it's about, you'll note that I'm still looking for help to make an advertisement thread to post on the blizzard RP forums. Still looking for -positive- suggestions as well.

All you can hope for is realm merge. There is nothing attractive in moving to a low population, low progression realm, even if it is free.

It's a problem that exists on many realms and there isn't anything the player base can do about it.

You can label this post pessimistic if you wish, however I believe it's a matter of fact and I worry about the inevitable crushed dreams when these grass roots campaigns ultimately fail to due to a lack of interest and flawed execution.

All you can hope for is realm merge. There is nothing attractive in moving to a low population, low progression realm, even if it is free.

It's a problem that exists on many realms and there isn't anything the player base can do about it.

You can label this post pessimistic if you wish, however I believe it's a matter of fact and I worry about the inevitable crushed dreams when these grass roots campaigns ultimately fail to due to a lack of interest and flawed execution.

I wouldn't say pessimistic, certainly more realistic view, considering the game is something like...1-2 million less populated? (a rough figure, I'm not entirely sure), we have so to speak, too many boats and not enough passengers, which leaves some "boats" like ours, looking rather empty and some looking overly populated.

When you're trying to get people involved in a great project, it helps to have more than a handful of people, and while a handful is a fair start, if there is not even enough people to get involved, it would just seem highly likely the project would stall, and flat line unfortunately.

@Sastri If you're wishing to kick-start things, i would strongly suggest not just floating the same message on our forum, you are really preaching to the converted here already, or the damned (however you look at it) and post on the other RP realms, off the top of my head Moonglade and Steamwheedle Cartel are in similar, small population woes.

Perhaps create an exchange for people to go between, roll alts on respective opposite realms and nourish each others RP, which brings more people to this realm to play, and more to their realm to play.

You could claim that this idea is a sort of player enforced merger, as it breaches the gap between the smaller realms and allows people to move freely between the two, albeit on alt characters, and with the added benefit of trying something new, after-all variety is the spice of life, and stagnant RP with the same people, in the same place doing the same thing, eventually will become boring, for some at least.

I would also suggest offering those with an interest, but perhaps not the confidence, or knowledge to go about RPing, a chance to learn, study so to speak. There is a difference between those who are uninformed and those who are simply rude.

And i may add, leaving servers -is- an option and you shouldn't be chastising people for leaving, and i have not implied people staying here are in any shape stupid, or idiotic, it is their decision whether or not they want to. I had no intention to imply that, but i apologize if i have offended you in any shape or form. Simply when i see a realm where i can count the people i actually enjoy being around on my fingers and toes, and the rest on my ignore list, something has to be going wrong somewhere down the line.

Negativity and Positivity are subjective things, someone's idea of negative may be pragmatic or realistic to another, and positivity may be seen as wishful thinking, each to their own i say.

Perhaps create an exchange for people to go between, roll alts on respective opposite realms and nourish each others RP, which brings more people to this realm to play, and more to their realm to play.

You could claim that this idea is a sort of player enforced merger, as it breaches the gap between the smaller realms and allows people to move freely between the two, albeit on alt characters, and with the added benefit of trying something new, after-all variety is the spice of life, and stagnant RP with the same people, in the same place doing the same thing, eventually will become boring, for some at least.

This is actually a very good idea, Deri. Not bad. I'll pitch this to the channels and community guild.

I would also suggest offering those with an interest, but perhaps not the confidence, or knowledge to go about RPing, a chance to learn, study so to speak. There is a difference between those who are uninformed and those who are simply rude.

Amen. I and my fellows are doing this already. I've also already listed that in my OP as a definite reason why people are angry and snarly at RPers at times, and at least a few of us are doing what we can to bring new RPers in. We don't consider it teaching, however, because none of us have a right to say our RP is better. But giving options for other types of RP is really the general idea. As if to say "you don't need to RP demons in order to be able to look 'cool'" or something. The broken keel was for awhile there hosted in the cities as well. I may get that started again after my week break.

But this isn't just a post for RPers. This is for the entire realm to work things out and make it work. If that means taking turns on a realm and establishing another character that may be very difficult for some, but at least it'd give others options. The only worry is that this temporary exodus would also cost us more players when people get that "grass is always greener" effect on another server, even if quite literally it's not in any better shape than ours.

So it's a controversial subject. But I'll still offer it up as a possibility .

And i may add, leaving servers -is- an option and you shouldn't be chastising people for leaving, and i have not implied people staying here are in any shape stupid, or idiotic, it is their decision whether or not they want to. I had no intention to imply that, but i apologize if i have offended you in any shape or form. Simply when i see a realm where i can count the people i actually enjoy being around on my fingers and toes, and the rest on my ignore list, something has to be going wrong somewhere down the line.

I believe you misunderstand the meaning of the OP and my following posts regarding this, Deri. I am not chastising those who leave. That is their decision. I'm supporting those who wish to stay and giving them options to make the server they love work for them, rather than forcing them to make that choice they don't really want to make. Also, in no way shape or form am I saying that leaving is wrong. We have to do what we can to feel satisfied with game play. What I am snarling about is when people leave and then come back to preach to others about why OTHERS should leave. That only fills a forum with filthy posts that no potential newcomer wants to see. Does that clarify things now?

Example of someone leaving and returning to say "This realm sucks" is what you did on your last few paragraphs. It's a shame, too, because the rest of your post was good, aside from maybe the beginning where you trash the community still here. hehe. But your suggestions--while potentially crippling the server further--are once again something I'll pitch to people in game. Though I feel that is a last resort option, to be honest. And I'm not to say we're at that point yet.

Negativity and Positivity are subjective things, someone's idea of negative may be pragmatic or realistic to another, and positivity may be seen as wishful thinking, each to their own i say.

You have a point, for perception is the spice of life. However, I disagree that saying "this is why I have left the realm" when people already -know- the reasons, as those reasons have been thrown up in the faces of those remaining countless times, is not only a negative perception, but an unfair one that does have the tendency to make people feel like they're dumb to stay here.

All you can hope for is realm merge. There is nothing attractive in moving to a low population, low progression realm, even if it is free.

It's a problem that exists on many realms and there isn't anything the player base can do about it.

You can label this post pessimistic if you wish, however I believe it's a matter of fact and I worry about the inevitable crushed dreams when these grass roots campaigns ultimately fail to due to a lack of interest and flawed execution.

Once again, I agree to a point. While it's very true and very clear we must keep pitching for Blizz to finally get the idea to merge two low pop servers--hopefully soon if they want to keep in the "game"--we should not go and say that is the -only- option for those staying here. What do you do in the meanwhile? Leave, thus causing others to leave, and others still? While some people have that option, others are established here, raiders and RPers alike, and would not want to abandon their characters for another one, to have to start all over again, and may not have the money nor desire for a transfer.

Those people should have options that doesn't include leaving. Once again, stop filling the posts on what the server is and what it can't be, rather than post suggestions on how to help it along--suggestions that we can control, not waiting for Blizz to get its head out of the sand.

TLDR: You leave, you are not hated. You post saying why you left, and you are going to lose respect, cause people already know the reasons. Don't keep bringing them up.

Its an interesting read, whilst myself - I haven't been a part of this realm for very long, however it does stand in stead with a lot of realms these days.

The problem is not directly within the realm, but more directly of the players.

Players are attracted by what the realm has to offer - and really, what does this realm have to offer? Whilst older - more mature players will generally choose what suits them to a guild as opposed to the overall realm, a lot of in-experienced players will judge a book by its cover. RP realm LOL! PvE RP LOL <insert expletive comment about players>. I for one, prefer PvP realm for various reasons, some of which some players here and elsewhere will share.

I'm not sure if anyone has or still plays on Magtheridon. During vanilla WoW Magtheridon often saw queues to enter the realm to play. Now, I believe Magtheridon has had various free character to transfers TO the realm for the lack of populace. The realm overall nowadays has less PvE progress than this realm:
http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/eu/magtheridon

Of course, during its prime the guild of Nihilum did reside here, the worlds first 'world first guild' if you like. It was never going to end this way as the intense server lag soon forced the guild later to be known as '25th November' or Ensidia to move to Tarren Mill, until recently Ensidia were absorbed into Envy. Tarren Mill, however has built and kept its balance of PvE teams and has 16 8/8 HC guilds.

Another example is the realm of Kazzak - again in its vanilla state held one of Europe's more succesful guilds of the Alliance - Forte. The realm to this day holds itself high - 33 8/8 HC guilds.

Other realms which have also built reputation will of course be the remnants of the old 'Cyclone' battlegroup, feared to be perhaps the overall strongest PvP battle group in the world, consisting of Stormscale, Ravencrest, Silvermoon and Shattered Hand - all recognised realms with - each realm averaging across the 4, 16.5 8/8 HC guilds.

As a general rule of concensus - each realm has top 3 guilds within the top 500 guilds in the world, with Stormscale being the exception to a world 521 guild. Hardly an anomaly.

I would like to conclude, that to many players - this realm simply isn't attractive. Now don't get me wrong, this realm has some brilliant players, some of whom could easily fit into a top 500 guild, some perhaps with their playtime maybe the top 100.

Now the crunch: this realm is dead and has nothing going for it, no one comes here and no one re-rolls here as there is nothing here. Wrong. What we don't have here is multitudes of players and/or the attraction to bring them here. By population this realm isn't big, thus guilds are smaller and less progressed. At the end of the day, every player is free to leave of their own choice and free-will, don't ever assume otherwise.

But players do actually roll here! Believe it or not. I actually run a social guild, albeit level 25 already giving it a great advantage, it generally sits at around 15-20 active users through the day which is more than Apex have during a raid night! May I add, this guild has an open recruitment policy for the benefit of the players - they are free to come and go. Although I am somewhat pleased that for being 'open' for 2 weeks we are quite active! Members come in all different shapes and sizes, different backgrounds and difference experience levels. For a small realm like this, these smaller guilds are in the background - but they provide a backbone of new blood.

However, as guildmasters recruiting for their raid teams - it won't always come to you, go out, poach and sniff for new blood. Poach other guilds, head hunt people. Its a dirty game, but someone has to do it! Network, join communities, do battlegrounds, do LFR and do LFD - you never know who you will bump into, or whats going on in their guilds at the moment. You don't need to go in for the kill straight away, have a friendly chat over a few days, talk during raids or even invite them over for more group play.

To build a community, you need to let it grow, let it flourish. By trying to shape everything you risk letting things die before they breathe. There is a saying of "loosers let it happen, winners make it happen" but not everything requires direct action.

I'm not sure whether to agree or disagree with this. I think I agree. As long as the priori is that no one is forcing anyone to do anything. These are just helpful hints to keep us all in the game. One thing I will say is, however, this:

But players do actually roll here! Believe it or not. I actually run a social guild, albeit level 25 already giving it a great advantage, it generally sits at around 15-20 active users through the day which is more than Apex have during a raid night! May I add, this guild has an open recruitment policy for the benefit of the players - they are free to come and go. Although I am somewhat pleased that for being 'open' for 2 weeks we are quite active! Members come in all different shapes and sizes, different backgrounds and difference experience levels. For a small realm like this, these smaller guilds are in the background - but they provide a backbone of new blood.

I liked this quote, because I think it does indeed help to strengthen the points being mentioned. Be open, basically. Because people can improve. The fact that we have people at all is a great thing, and we can't just spit in the faces of those trying to make it work. Who knows? At some point these pioneers will be the strongest of us all. We can't be selective. But we can be smart and help each other to make it work.

I think that's what you mean, right?

Going off on a tangent here, but I wanted to comment about the "We can't be selective" comment you made Sastri.

Obviously the following doesn't apply to a social guild that is in the proper sense of the word social and uniformly doesn't care about progression.

You say you can't be selective, but it's the very nature of being selective that separates great PvE guilds from poor to average ones.

When you start being less picky about your applicants (because your roster is thin) - that's the very moment you start a viscous circle that ultimately ends up in an unrecoverable tail spin into poor progression and a slow guild meltdown.

It's essential everybody is at (or very near to) the same skill level and wants the same things out of end game, otherwise the top people get frustrated and most of the time move on elsewhere.

It's no coincidence that the better guilds have a higher decline ratio of applications.

well, like I said, I didn't know entirely how raiding went. But I suppose I had always disagreed that it's impossible to help people get to that point. And there's a difference with being picky and being selective. Selective is "the best of the best", while picky is "Well, you have to have already gotten heroic gear level with gems, and we can help you get the rest." You can get people like this to a point of good raiding in no time, provided they are serious about raiding and want to learn. Naturally, you can't go and grab people who don't want to seriously raid or learn, but those who are not completely "there" yet, can be brought to that point with less work than people think. As long as they, the newcomers, really want to get there.

In the end it's all about how much you want something, really. And what you're prepared to do about it to get it.