World of Warcraft®

I agree with Sylmarien. Not so much because I don't want people to play prestige classes, but because it very easily can be, and already is for some people, a crutch. Making your character a prestige class gives them a title, but at the end of the day, doesn't improve the character concept. If a prestige class fits into the concept, then fine, go for it. I'm not a fan of people who make a big deal about their special class specialness, because far too often it turns into them spending a paragraph introducing themselves due to titles, but once it comes down to talking, the character is more or less still a blank slate. No likes, no hates, no personality. (I hate undead or "This guy offended me so now I'm angry" isn't personality)

Anyway, that's my small rant. It's not so much that prestige classes are awful, more that they are often used for the wrong reasons.

Some fair points raised. I think the general feeling is that if they're done well, with the prestige just being a little ateration of combat styles that doesn't go overboard, it generally adds to the character.

I do get the message of "Don't let this thing define your character", which I feel is important to be highlighted.

I am a bit confused regarding this topic. Some of the things that people class prestige classes sounds to me like racial words for the a certain class. Wolf riders or knights are game-mechanically just mounted warriors to me. Sure, they might add a lot to your role-playing experience, but to me a prestige class is something different than just another name for something that is well within the boundaries of the official classes, or the classes mixed with professions or mounts.

For me a prestige class is something like a spellbreaker or a demonhunter that simply can't be defined easily by using your in game abilities. They often have very specific background and personalties to reflect a unique style of life. That means that a character that is playing a prestige class is by default defined by its class, unless it is played badly, and is thus harder to pull off believably.

07/04/2012 08:55Posted by Sylmarien

Better to focus on characterisation, personality, theme, and character choices in RP than exotic powers and outlandish classes in my opinion at least.

This is something i've mentioned before. But I said it like this;

IRL you do things. You eat. You sleep. You drink. You play WoW. Eat too much and you get extremely fat and you'll die from a heart attack. Sleep too much and you'll never be able to get out of your bed again and won't have time for anything else. Drink too much and you might just become an alcoholic. Play WoW too much and you might forsake eating, drinking and sleeping.

Now lets stop being metaphorical.

In WoW RP you do things. You can do random RP. You can do event-driven RP. You can do combat RP. You can do erotic RP. Do too much random RP and you'll never get a plot going. Do too much event-driven RP and you'll get stuck in a bubble and nobody but your group in the events will ever see you again. Do too much combat RP and you'll forsake your character's story and personality and trade it in for being a better combatant. Do too much erotic RP and you'll forsake your character's story and personality just as much and trade it in for being a better sex-partner.

Your life is a battle of moderation. So as Sylmarien said; Don't make a prestige class for the sake of having unique combat skills. Make a prestige class that fits with your character as a whole.

I'd like to rise another discussion to this topic, since its so near to the matter.

What about combining different classes/Prestige classes? What this means, is that, you could play a Warrior IC, yet you could also be a skilled alchemist. To which point, can this be pulled out good and well?

I for one act with this character very hybridly. While he is mainly a Master of Elements, he is able to communicate with Spirits (Which many shaman are able to do aswell), part-time engineer, meaning that he makes small projects during his free time, and also a skilled melee fighter, thanks to his younger years spent battling the pirates, even if his age has slowed him down a bit. He also knows how to shoot with a gun.

My question is, to which point the hybridisation can be brought? I for one think my characters skills are mere basic additions to his core class that surrounds him, and do not make him OP, but more special.

For example, what do you think about a Warrior, that is master with both melee -and- ranged combat? Or a mage that can master frost spells like fire spells? Or a Tinker that also happens to be a skilled techno mage?

07/04/2012 10:48Posted by Nisvarin

Your life is a battle of moderation. So as Sylmarien said; Don't make a prestige class for the sake of having unique combat skills. Make a prestige class that fits with your character as a whole.

Yes, this is a good point..However, on the other hand, like a wise man once said:

"We know what happens to those that stand in the middle of the road. They get ran over."

Instead of trying to balance things out completely, you should do varying choices constantly. That makes your char go forth. For example: At times, your char can be more violent than usual, and then for example begins a pacifistic journey towards peace, avoiding violence. And so the cycle will repeat.

Instead of trying to balance things out completely, you should do varying choices constantly. That makes your char go forth. At times, your char can be more violent than usual, and then for example begins a pacifistic journey towards peace, avoiding violence. And so the cycle will repeat.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Could you explain it a bit?

07/04/2012 11:05Posted by Nisvarin

Instead of trying to balance things out completely, you should do varying choices constantly. That makes your char go forth. At times, your char can be more violent than usual, and then for example begins a pacifistic journey towards peace, avoiding violence. And so the cycle will repeat.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Could you explain it a bit?

I meant that you should go from one extreme move to another, to develop your character forth.

We can look at many lore characters and see this aswell: For example, first Garrosh was a nobody in Nagrand sulking around a campfire doing nothing. Then he joined the assault to Northrend and returned as a hero. Then he became a brutal Warchief, and apparently (Spoiler), he's going to lose it all to madness. Now, many of you can think that Garrosh's lore hasn't been the most appealing (Which is possible); but you have to admit, that his story has gone forth, whereas Cairne Bloodhoof (Bless that old bull) Stood years and years in Thunder Bluff, doing nothing. He was a great character, yes, but was his story developed forth at all until Cata came and ended it? No.

What I mean, is that people shouldn't fear of being extreme with their characters. FOr example, at point they can be heroic and a man of their people, and after few months, they could have gotten tired of it and become cynic and cold. After that, the char could try to find help from a romance, and when it doesn't work out, he will try to return to his old habits.

Point is. Variate your characters actions constantly, yet keep the character the same. It develops your character.

Right. I get it now and I agree. Though I do think Garrosh and Cairne's story is a rather bad example because their character development is basically decided so because Blizzard chooses to develop certain characters and leave others completely blank (I feel sorry for you Lor'themar).

What I however meant with moderation is not that you stop having extremes. It's the amount of extremes you have with your character that you moderate. If your character goes mad over a fight on day one and then cries for the loss of its mother the next day, then on day three goes back to fighting like a berserker, day four is crying again and then on day five suddenly the father dies. If you play it out like that an outburst from your character won't mean anything. It wouldn't be special anymore, and that's also a loss.

Still, we're going off-topic here. Woops.

I am questioning the recent trend of adding stuff just for the sake of ''variety'' when there is more than enough material already to create unique and memorable characters just by looking at what exists in-game.
Better to focus on characterisation, personality, theme, and character choices in RP than exotic powers and outlandish classes in my opinion at least. Thats is what I'm saying. Not ''dont play prestige classes or exotic concepts''. ^_^

Oooh, Yes, I do agree with that. One shouldn't pick a prestige class just to be "unique". As with everything else, one should make use of the things that makes sense to your character.

However, I do see the great fun that can be had by drawing inspiration from prestige classes or by copy-pasting a prestige class and incorporating it into your roelplay, so long as it makes sense and is part of your own character's development and not just an "i r speshul" badge.

Although, there's not really too many "outlandish" powers, truth be told. Just about everything the prestige classes give us in the books is something we can already find in WoW; the books simply tell us a bit more about said powers and themes and limitations.

But even then, a prestige class should not define your character. Feranos should not be summarized in the word "Hunter", nor should Sylmarien be seen as just a "Death Knight", and nor should a "Templar" be just a "Templar", and an "Apothecary" shouldn't just be an "Apothecary". Adding one's own quirks, personality, weaknesses and strengths, hates and likes and such to a character is what truly makes them unique.

I've received some distateful pokes (not many luckily) regarding my goblin character wearing a mechanical armor suit. I usually point out that it isn't against lore (it's not the armor from crysys :P) and point them to:
http://www.wowpedia.org/Steam_warrior

Sadly, the Steam Warrior is nearly impossible to RP in game because we can't be walking around in a shredder look-a-like most of the time, so I did a bit of cross breading between the Steam Warrior and a Goblin Tinker (http://www.wowpedia.org/Tinker) and called him a Tinker Warrior, being a Tinker that specializes his abilities for combat.
In the end, intead of the huge robot armor, he prefers to wear a goblin sized suit filled with gadgets like rockets, parachute, weapons, strenght amplifiers, etc. Some RP having them on the belt, in mine his own armor is the gadget.

While the armor provides a great boost to his fighting abilities, an easy way to avoid OPing him is to have the suit malfunction (something common among goblin tech).

You pay, you play. Want to play a non-playable class? Fine by me as long as you've the correct story and play it out correctly.

07/04/2012 08:46Posted by Waywatcher

ur Forsaken character works in the Royal Apothecary Society and performs ghastly experiments of deranged alchemy, why call him "a Forsaken mage with Alchemy" instead of an Apothecary

Apothecary is not a simple side-job for the Forsaken. It is a class of it's own.
I have elaborated this on AA in my "Royal Apothecary Society" explination report.
There is a difference betwen being Apothecary fulltime and not just a doctor or simple alchemist. Infact, the Apothecaries sees most alchemists as failures. But that's an entirely different discussion.

But yes, as stated, the class is not playable by choice from character screen and needs to be implanted and roleplayed. There is many classes like these. Deathstalker is another example, though essentially a rogue they are more 'magical' then your average rogue. Or a Deathguard which is something of a mix between rogue and warrior, able to both sneak and wear shields.

Oooh, Yes, I do agree with that. One shouldn't pick a prestige class just to be "unique". As with everything else, one should make use of the things that makes sense to your character.

However, I do see the great fun that can be had by drawing inspiration from prestige classes or by copy-pasting a prestige class and incorporating it into your roelplay, so long as it makes sense and is part of your own character's development and not just an "i r speshul" badge.

Mm, agreed. When considering something like a prestige class, it's best to consider why you want this class for your character and what it actually adds to your character. If the only thing you can think of for those two points is "it's cool," "it's special/unique" or "it makes my character powerful," it's best to give it a miss. In fact, you can have that thought process when you do anything for your character.

And, as you said, if the only interesting thing about your character is their class, then it's a sign that your character probably needs some work. :P

As Sylmarien says with so many options you don't need 100+ classes not represented in game:

Want to roll a Barbarian? use a Fury Warrior
Want to roll a Beast Master? use a BM Hunter
Want to be a sharp-shooter/Gun slingeR? use a MM Hunter
Want to be a Lich? roll a Frost Mage or DK
Want to be a Goblin Alchemist? Roll a Goblin and max the Alchemy proffession then roll from there
Want to be a Gnomish tinker? Roll a Gnome and grab engineering fight with dynomite and guns or whatever

There is already infinite choice and I can think of about 200+ classes to play using what's already ingame without having to resort to fighting strictly through Emotes to show it heck you can even get the same "prestige class" from multiple ingame classes:

In WCIII the Blademaster had 4 spells:

Critical Strike
Mirror Image
Wind Walk
Whirlwind/Bladestorm (I forgot which one it was called)

So if you wanted a Blademaster who can WW/BS then you can represent one with a warrior carrying a Two-hander or a one-hander, two one handers or even a two hander and a one hander at the same time

If you want a Critical strike or Wind Walk Blademaster look no further than a rogue, just stick to shadow strike and stealth/vanish and avoid anything else that's less honourable.

You want to mirror image? okay that might be harder to do but a Mage could work just slap on a one handed sword and strip down the clothing to a minimum and you're good to go!

You could even take the route I went and invent a class concept I know I created the concept of Plague Knights (Note the term has been widely in use for a long time but I created a concept of Plague Knight that was specific to my character/the guild I ran) that used a total of five skills from the entire DK roster:

Plague Strike
Pestilence
Necrotic Strike
Contagion
Scourge Strike

and that went smashingly.

I know many people make this concept of "a character is not a class" into a big thing but people need to remeber that the class your character has is really important to every aspect of who they are. Knights will hold different outlooks on life and values to a mage while a Tinker will has different political inclinations to a sapper.

Classes don't define characters but they do create the basis for the whole character you play as they affect every facet of the characters existance. You see these chain smoking alcholic paladins cussing and spouting "tough guy" speak in the pig and whistle and you know they're horribly played because thier class IC is a Paladin and thier behaviour while Rasputin-like doesn't gel with the concept or nuancse of the class.

06/04/2012 12:21Posted by Nakasu

Dragon Knight

There is no such thing as Dragon Knight but Dragonsworn

Behold the mighty Fizzletink! Techno-mage supreme!

Classes don't define characters but they do create the basis for the whole character you play as they affect every facet of the characters existance. You see these chain smoking alcholic paladins cussing and spouting "tough guy" speak in the pig and whistle and you know they're horribly played because thier class IC is a Paladin and thier behaviour while Rasputin-like doesn't gel with the concept or nuancse of the class.

I disagree -entirely-.

If the class needs to form the -basis- for a character, then what about those that roleplay civilians? People -without- a warrior's health, a rogue's stealth or a mage's spells? Is the old man unable to properly walk without assistance still able to make use of a warrior's healthpool or large heavy-handed weapons? Is the humble baker a mage who can frostbolt your face off? Is the merchant in truth a man who can sprint faster than a horse?

I'm not saying they would all make -use- of their class's abilities, but to me it sounds like you mean that any person -must- use their OOC class as a sort of "jumping point" to mold their character.

Using OOC classes as representations of what each person should act like IC is... well, it makes no sense to me. At all.

That does not mean I agree with chain-smoking paladins or that crap, but that's more of a failure to understand the lifestyle and principles of a Paladin's virtues on an OOC level, and even then it only applies to whether or not they are still roleplaying actual paladins or something else entirely.

Don't get me wrong; if one roleplays a paladin I do feel that one should preferably actually -play- the paladin class, and if one is roleplaying a thief the rogue class would indeed be the best choice. But if one wishes to roleplay a class we can't pick OOC, then they shouldn't be "forced" into having to use the original OOC classes as a basis for their character.

I know many people make this concept of "a character is not a class" into a big thing but people need to remeber that the class your character has is really important to every aspect of who they are. Knights will hold different outlooks on life and values to a mage while a Tinker will has different political inclinations to a sapper.

It doesn't -have- to be a very big aspect of who they are. That's up to the individual roleplayer to decide. True, it most likely will. But it doesn't have to.

A man can still join an Order of Knights, whilst secretly hating it's rules and norms and disagreeing entirely with what the Gand Master says and does. A tinker -can- have the exact same political inclinations as a sapper.

Just because -most- in their situation would do X, doesn't exclude them from also trying Y.

This is all my personal opinion of course; don't take anything I say as a direct fact.

10/04/2012 12:21Posted by Feranos

If the class needs to form the -basis- for a character, then what about those that roleplay civilians?

True. Much like of Felsworns. Overdose usage of Fel would make their violent nature equal to these of deamons.

(I'm aweful with breaking up quotes)
@ Feranos

1. If you play a civillian then your class is by definition "civillian", being a warrior only affects a warrior if he plays a warrior you see? gosh I hope that doesn't sound like gibberish...so yes anyway yes I didn't mean they have to use thier OOC class but the OOC aspects of the class and game mechanics make it very very easy to play a lot of different options and prestige classes without resorting to "I rolled a rogue but I'm really a Warlock IC" sort of situation.

Your IC class is always a big part of your character, wether it's a knight who hates his orders edicts of a mage who feels that his colleagues are too closed minded, that is still a part of how your class is shaping your character as presumably your character chose to some extent thier path in life with only a minority of characters being in positions where they were forced into a path (of these I mostly mean Human and Elven Nobles) and while the tinker, sapper thing might not have been the best example I'm sure you fully understand what I meant without us having to get bogged down in semantics.