Topic
Ret Rotation Emergency
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Hai guys. I need some tips for a good rotation for retadins.
Using Seal of Insight. Judgement -> Crusader Strike -> Divine Storm -> Consecration -> Templar's Verdict -> Crusader Strike -> Zealotry -> Templar's Verdict -> Crusader Strike -> and so on... I can't for the love of god get over 13k dps unbuffed... What am I doing wrong with my rotation? Did I do something wrong while reforging? Please help. |
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I didn't think there would be anyone who would actually use Seal of Insight as Ret
Amazing |
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Edited by Meatshields on 10/04/12 13:55 (BST)
Your glyphs, spec and reforging look fine so it's the way you're playing. First, use Seal of Truth (as the glyph gives you 10 free expertise). The expertise, and the effect of the Seal will increase your DPS a lot.
Your rotation should be: Crusader Strike -> Filler -> Filler -> Crusader Strike -> Filler -> Filler -> Crusader Strike ... This way you are using Crusader Strike as much as you can, therefore getting as much holy power as you can. The fillers are Judgement, Exocism (ONLY if Art of War has procced), Hammer of Wrath and Holy Wrath. If you have 3 holy power, your next ability should be Inquisition if it is not already up, or Templar's Verdict if Inquisition is up. Get 3 holy power and use Zealotry and Avenging Wrath at the same time whenever they are off cooldown (unless you can't hit the boss for a while because of some mechanic). |
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Hmmm... Okay, lemme get more specific.
Always get 3HP inquisition up ASAP and refresh it when it has 1-3 secs left. The 2/5 t13 really helps here as it allows you to get 3hp inquisition up within the first 4 secs. After that, the priority is: Crusader Strike > Hammer of Wrath > Instant Exorcism > 3HP Templar's Verdict > Judgement > Holy Wrath > Consecration Against undead/demons, instant exorcism is better than hammer of wrath, so it gets priority over HoW. Don't use crusader strike if you have 3 holy power stored. First use any available HoW, Exo, and TV. During wings on 20%+, make sure you use those HoWs as soon as they become available (you can somehow squeeze in FOUR HoWs during wings), as they're basically free specials.
I find this is universally a dps loss for me. In fact I do considerably more dmg when I pop guardian+wings, then as soon as wings are done pop zealotry. Elitistjerks promotes using guardian first, then after 10 secs popping wings, then after 10 secs popping zealotry for max dps... But this never worked for me. In fact it bloody sucked as I had considerable dps losses. :P |
Sorry, this is wrong. Doing it this way, you have gaps if your rotation where you're auto attacking and you will end up with periods where you'll be hitting crusader strike, and waiting for another crusader strike.Start an encounter with: Guardian of Ancient Kings Crusader Strike (wait 0.5s) -> Judgement (wait 0.5s) -> Crusader Strike -> Filler (wait 0.5s) -> Zealotry, Avenging Wrath and Inquisition Hammer of Wrath -> Crusader Strike ->Templar's Verdict (Til Avenging Wrath and Zealotry have run out) Note that: Exorcism proc (From Art of War) - Should be used as a filler between Crusader Strikes. If you are at 2 Holy Power, and use Crusader Strike to gain 3 holy power, Use Templars Verdict, Crusader Strike -> Exorcism ->Crusader Strike -> Filler etc etc.It's priority, not a rotation. It's ALWAYS different. |
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......I find this is universally a dps loss for me. In fact I do considerably more dmg when I pop guardian+wings, then as soon as wings are done pop zealotry. In fact, Gigana, elitistjerks recommends Zealotry, 5 seconds, GoAK, 5 seconds, Pot, 5 seconds, Wings - but this is with T12 set bonus. With T13 set bonus it's GoAK, 10 seconds, Zealotry/Wings together (unless I'm misreading it) I'd be interested to hear more from you on this, as I believe that best use of CDs is somewhat dependent on a player's ability - I'm not the best at this by a long chalk and I have thought that maybe for me trying to achieve the optimum (and failing) may be a dps loss, and that I'd be better doing as you do and using Zealotry/Wings sequentially. As an aside, no disrespect to the OP but this level of analysis may be a bit OTT for someone who thinks Seal of Insight to be best dps seal? |
I think its because he didn't take into account the Censure and the increased weapon damage. The base damage from Judgement of Insight i think is slightly higher- Which is what he looked at.Pre-Pot - GoAK (10s) + Zealoty/Wings/Inquisition (In that order) = 100k Crits with Hammer of Wrath Crits in PvE - Strangely, seems to be quite regular for me.. :D |
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Edited by Gigana on 10/04/12 17:15 (BST)
Ah, you're right. EJ either changed it or my reading comprehension sucked. :P Anyway, I did a four small tests now, ~2 minute dpsing on dummy (one use of cds per test). Ilvl396 gear, with gurthalak. EJ Rotation (guardian 10 sec + wings/zeal at the same time): 30.5k, 1 tentacle 31.5k, 1 tentacle My rotation (wings/guardian at same time, then zeal when wings fall off): 34.5k, 1 tentacle 34k, 2 tentacles I wanted to do many more tests (with a pvp weapon, too, so that I wouldn't have to worry about RNG tentacles :p), but I have to go. I'll make sure to test it out a bit these days. I logged out in my pve gear/spec, so you can check it out. :P EDIT: BTW, my own rotation tests are consistent with my previous dps tests of my rotation, so I don't think I got lucky with procs there. |
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Edited by Vesquez on 10/04/12 19:43 (BST)
I'm sorry for interrupting your discussion here - I don't really want to act like a douche - but alot of the information you have given out in this thread is either false or very misleading to get the best DPS out of Grés Retribution Paladin.
Secondly before starting out, I'd also like to point out that I didn't go through your gem/enchant/reforge choices, neither did I check what spec you're running and with what glyphs. I just went through your armory quickly to see whether or not you had attained the T13 2-piece bonus, which it appears you haven't so far. I also wouldn't be covering the 101 basics, like standing behind the boss - I suppose that's common knowledge by now. Players in this thread has already told you to use Seal of Truth, so let's go straight to our DPS system; It's important to note that Retribution doesn't have a rotation system, but a priority system depending on procs/what abilities we have available at the given time. You will most certainly have a beginner rotation, but after that it all depends on what's happening, whether Divine Purpose decides to proc and what not. The priority queue for Rets without T13 2-piece bonus is the following; Inquisition -> Templar's Verdict (3 HoPo) -> Crusader Strike -> Templar's Verdict (Divine Purpose proc) -> Hammer of Wrath -> Exorcism (Art of War) -> Judgement -> Holy Wrath -> Consecration With the T13 2-piece bonus, Judgement's priority raises alot, to the point where it's behind Crusader Strike due to HoPo generation. Also important to note; Reapply Inquisition at 6 seconds left and below. Saving 3 HoPo in order to reapply Inquisition at exactly 1-3 seconds left is a DPS loss, the same can be said if it actually falls off. If you've just used Templar's Verdict and Crusader Strike is on cooldown at 4 seconds remaining, you wouldn't be in time to reapply Inquisition unless you're lucky with a Div Purpose proc.
I'm sorry for correcting you, but why in the world would you delay using your abilities so you have less gaps in your rotation? By delaying the abilities by 0.5 seconds, you'll have to wait longer to use said ability again, which in turn makes you get less HoPo over a fight = less dps. If you have an ability ready from the Rotation Queue, use it ASAP. Doing otherwise will be a DPS loss. Now that we've got the basic priority system covered, let's move on to cooldown usage.
EJ Rotation (guardian 10 sec + wings/zeal at the same time): I'm sorry for calling you out on this, but the information you're giving is misleading and most likely is due to you not using either the priority queue system correctly or your cooldown usage timing is flawed somehow. There used to be a point in Tier 11 where Hammer of Wrath could actually rival Templar's Verdict damage output, but that's a long time ago. On today's live server, Templar's Verdict does the most damage by far, and that's also the reason we stack Avenging Wrath and Zealotry together, so we can pump out alot of high burst Templar's Verdict damage to boss targets. Infact, almost all of our damage is from that one core ability, that not getting the most out of it will gimp your DPS by a large margin. Furthermore stacking Zealotry and AW will be even more advantageous with 4T13, as the 20% and 18% is multiplicative, so you can pump out the sickest TV damage. The main thing to keep in mind and where some Rets often fail is using their GoAK together with Zealotry and Avenging Wrath. EJ tells you to wait 10 seconds to pop cooldowns after using GoAK - and that with good reason, seeing as that's where you'll have the most stacks up, while at the same time having the cooldown up during Zealotry/AW - but in reality it's really hard to accomplish and often involves luck more than anything else. Instead of sitting on some of your abilities, just pop the CDs as soon as Zealotry becomes available. This way you will still have some stacks on the boss target, while not delaying abilities in your priority queue, which often ends in a DPS loss. Sorry for the wall of text, atleast hope it was helpful - Vesquez |
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Edited by Pulling on 10/04/12 19:56 (BST)
I'm sorry for correcting you, but why in the world would you delay using your abilities so you have less gaps in your rotation? By delaying the abilities by 0.5 seconds, you'll have to wait longer to use said ability again, which in turn makes you get less HoPo over a fight = less dps. If you have an ability ready from the Rotation Queue, use it ASAP. Doing otherwise will be a DPS loss. What I forgot to mention is, that doing so, you gradually get faster. It's very hard to maintain. It's weird how it works out. But causing yourself to get yourself to use two crusader strikes in a row is a bad thing. I find myself doing 55k or so on fights such as Zon'ozz easily which is far more than enough for this fight. Anytime where i've been in a situation where "Hit an ability as soon as its available to cast" i've always lost dps. |
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Edited by Vesquez on 10/04/12 20:03 (BST)
You're only very rarely gonna be using two crusader strikes in a row, and that's mostly due to bad RNG than anything else and can't be controlled. Is it a DPS loss that you don't have a filler available? Sure, but it's an even bigger DPS loss not using abilities the moment they're off cooldown so you can generate HoPo. Just simplifying it for you here;
Delaying HoPo Generating Abilities = Less HoPo over the course of a fight = Less Templar's Verdict output = Less DPS. There is no weird thing about how this works out, it's pretty logical with all the theorycrafting that is available to us these days. Templar's Verdict is by far our hardest hitting ability, if we want to maintain a very high and competitive DPS in raids, we need to get as many TV hits out as humanly possible. It's pretty simple really, and delaying abilities is counter productive to what has been common knowledge for us since 4.2. |
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Thank you for all your help so far. I actually was expecting to be flamed, and ranted at for being a complete noob. I won't deny the fact that I'm not the best player in the world, even though I had this character since 2006. I've been a real slacker, and never got around to start raiding, and stuff like that. I also remember how easy a ret pala was to play some years ago.
I'll stop using Seal of Insight, and start using Seal of Truth instead. Thank you, Vesquez, for explaining that I shouldn't be searching for the perfect "rotation". I will be saving your post for future reference. I'll try to improve and perfect my "button-mashing" instead, witch seems to have worked somewhat until up to this point. Endsieg, I used Seal of Insight, because my mana usage was like opening a black hole. |
its around 6 secs or left , if you do TV at 4 secs left , you won't get enough HP to refresh inqui again, you can get 2 HP max, with 6 secs you can get 3 and be able to refresh it almost perfectly , you need 2t 13 for that tho. ~2 minute dpsing on dummy (one use of cds per test). Ilvl396 gear, with gurthalak. 2 minutes is to small. You should be aiming for about 5 mins. Reason why is because of the burst. Your burst in the second test will take a longer time probably than the first test. This also means your dmg on the first test will be lower because you have more time on it that contains normal dmg. In test 2, the burst dmg is more spread, then followed by a shorter period of normal dmg. If you make the test longer, like 5 or 10 mins, you will see that test 1 might actualy give a higher result or the same. Its just more bumpier, it skyrockets, falls down, skyrockets, falls down, and after a longer period of time it will stabilise. Your dps on the second test will show less ups and downs and will stay roughly the same. Could be that im wrong , but I know that 2 mins is to low to make a conclusion. |
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@ Vesquez
Could you write down your exact rotation WITH the 2/5 t13 in mind? The rotation I'm using is the one from EJ guide. I kinda followed their rotations blindly. However, I'm always open for improvement. :] |
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Just an apology for my contribution to hijacking Gres' thread - it has turned kinda interesting but quite a bit deeper than the OP was asking for - as Vesquez has properly pointed out some of what has been posted could be misleading.
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Inquisition -> Templar's Verdict (3 HoPo) -> Crusader Strike -> Judgement ->Templar's Verdict (Divine Purpose proc) -> Hammer of Wrath -> Exorcism (Art of War) -> Holy Wrath -> Consecration This is the priority system that we're currently using with 2T13 in mind. It's also important to note that Judgement pulls back behind Exorcism (Art of War) during our cooldown phase, simply because Judgement doesn't apply 3 HoPo like Crusader Strike; you just want to be pumping out Templar's Verdict damage everytime CS is on cooldown, with fillers being Hammer of Wrath and Art of War procs mainly. |
Inquisition -> Templar's Verdict (3 HoPo) -> Crusader Strike -> Judgement ->Templar's Verdict (Divine Purpose proc) -> Hammer of Wrath -> Exorcism (Art of War) -> Holy Wrath -> Consecration Aight, thanks, I'm definitely gonna test this rotation out. :] What about HoW during wings, btw? Should I prioritize using the "free HoWs" during wings or? |
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Edited by Vesquez on 11/04/12 18:24 (BST)
The Hammer of Wrath from Avenging Wrath is just a filler ability during your cooldown phase. The idea is that you pump out as many Templar's Verdict as possible during the damage increase, so the priority queue with AW+Zealotry active will look like this;
Inquisition -> Templar's Verdict (3 HoPo) -> Crusader Strike -> Templar's Verdict (Divine Purpose proc) -> Hammer of Wrath -> Exorcism (Art of War) -> Judgement -> Holy Wrath -> Consecration Basically use CS everytime you don't have 3 HoPo otherwise spam TV. If both of those are on cooldown, apply fillers starting with HoW. Important: This applies ONLY during Zealotry and Avenging Wrath. We use the priority system I linked in my earlier post when they're on cooldown. |
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Exorcism >> HoW
Exorcism does more damage and has shorter GCD. |
