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All my healing spells are shadow IC

08/04/2012 23:44Posted by Drexden

All my healing spells are shadow IC

I like you. As long as you don't expect to effortlessly/painlessly (for the subjects) heal living/non shadowy things with it.

Surely it wouldn't be possible to interweave/wield/cast Shadow and Light at the same time? Not only because they are natural/universal opposites, but also because the mindset you need to have in order to wield the Shadow conflicts with the mindset you need to have in order to wield the Light.

What about cases such as Archbishop Benedictus? He seemed to wield and alternate between using the Light one minute and the Shadow the next. At first I put it down to merely a case of game mechanics, but he does it in the novels as well.

The thing is, a lot of the 'rules' regarding the Light and Shadow have since been retconned or directly conflicted with more recent lore.

.. Because Blizzard has a tendency to contradict its own lore CONSTANTLY to a point where things simply stop to make any sense.

Hngn.

08/04/2012 23:50Posted by Caelheim

What about cases such as Archbishop Benedictus?

One word;

Cataclysm

.. Because Blizzard has a tendency to contradict its own lore CONSTANTLY

Hngng

Yeah, but perhaps it goes to show that the followers of the Old Gods operate outside of the regular cycle of things? We do see what are meant to be unfathomable powers gifted to their servants and puppets, after all.

08/04/2012 23:50Posted by Caelheim

What about cases such as Archbishop Benedictus? He seemed to wield and alternate between using the Light one minute and the Shadow the next. At first I put it down to merely a case of game mechanics, but he does it in the novels as well.

Blizzard has an uncanny ability to contradict its own lore.

That said, it'd probably be explained by the usual means: him being a unique special case, or perhaps an Old God messing up his head so badly that at one point he thinks he's doing the right thing and then goes all malevolent the other. Or, it could just be the Old God taking control of Benedictus at the point where he start tossing around Shadow.

All speculation of course, but until Blizzard cares to elaborate the situation somewhat I'd put it down as a brainfart and/or another "unique" case.

08/04/2012 23:50Posted by Caelheim

What about cases such as Archbishop Benedictus? He seemed to wield and alternate between using the Light one minute and the Shadow the next. At first I put it down to merely a case of game mechanics, but he does it in the novels as well.

Allow me to throw an idle speculation out there. In order to wield the light you must have a particular mind-set/faith/self-belief and with the shadow you must have a particular mind-set/faith/self-belief. What happens when you are insane?

08/04/2012 23:56Posted by Darkshire

Allow me to throw an idle speculation out there. In order to wield the light you must have a particular mind-set/faith/self-belief and with the shadow you must have a particular mind-set/faith/self-belief. What happens when you are insane?

Depends on if you'd be so insane that you can't make the difference between good/right and evil/wrong. And even then, you need to be able to make the difference in order to wield the Light. In case of Shadow I'm not as sure, though I'd wager it requires some grasp of reality as well.

08/04/2012 23:17Posted by Deshaun

I find that this above all, is the defining characteristic of Holy Light.

It's good, and to me at least, this implies that there is some sort of conscious origin behind it. Whether it's a huge Duracell battery at the end of the universe, some divine being, or a sort of engineered tool created by the Titans in the wake of Sargeras' fall to corruption - I haven't the foggiest. And for now, I don't think it matters.

No. The Light is not a sentient power and it does not judge people/things. Only reason why it automatically harms those wielding/empowered by/anything of the sort related to bad things is because it is by nature, as a divine power, the exact opposite of the "evil" things.

Exactly. It's the opposite of what can be considered 'evil', and that to me implies some level of conscious engineering behind its origin. Arcane doesn't have a polar opposite. Shamanistic powers have no polar opposite. Nor does druidic abilities.

The Holy Light and the Forgotten Shadow however, are arguably the two sources of 'power' with a yin to the others yang. A polar opposite. A perfect countermeasure.

I'm not saying that the Light is 'conscious', in the sense that it actively judges the applications of it - much as elements tend to do, when a shaman asks for their boon. Rather I believe the Holy Light - and maybe even the Forgotten Shadow - were put into place as created, if opposite tools with a rather specific purpose in mind.

As for their ability to be wielded with each other, or other schools of power.. eh. Med'an is an oddball, and I'm not sure if we should count him in as solid lore, or the exception to a rule.

08/04/2012 23:59Posted by Deshaun

Depends on if you'd be so insane that you can't make the difference between good/right and evil/wrong. And even then, you need to be able to make the difference in order to wield the Light. In case of Shadow I'm not as sure, though I'd wager it requires some grasp of reality as well.

When you consider that good/right, evil/wrong and reality are all subjective my whole understanding of how the light and the shadow works turns topsy-turvy for awhile. Before I realise that faith and belief are also subjective to the individual therefore anything is possible.

09/04/2012 00:09Posted by Duurna

The Holy Light and the Forgotten Shadow however, are arguably the two sources of 'power' with a yin to the others yang. A polar opposite. A perfect countermeasure.

Yeah, the cult of the forgotten shadow is new and was created by the forsaken and many were priests of the holy light in their previous life. They merely perverted their previous religion to meet with their new circumstances. That isn't a divine act, it is convenience. The forsaken are the polar opposite of humans, the humans worship the holy light, the forsaken create a polar opposite of the holy light, a.k.a the cult of the forgotten shadow.

With relation to the fel/light conflict, perhaps fel, a corrupt form of magic corrupts the spirit/faith of the person making them unable to call the light. Not by the light's choice but rather by the subject's own inability.

Just to clarify, the Forsaken may have been the founders of the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, they were not the original creators of its teachings.

This is not entirely true. The Forsaken may have created the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, but they were not the founders of its teachings.

So who are the creators of the teachings? I am right in thinking that the cult of the forgotten shadow originates from the teachings of the holy light, only perverted?

Just to clarify, the Forsaken may have found the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, they were not the original creators of its teachings.

Hmmh.. I'm not so sure that they weren't. I looked it up, and everything (that remains canon, thank you Metzen) I found suggested that the Forsaken were infact the ones to properly utilize the Shadow as a teaching.

That being said, the draenei of Auchindoun seems to use shadow as a tool - and assuming they did this from a near-instant point in time onwards, they would have done so from around the time of the Second War. Years before the Forsaken.

So to clarfiy - The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow is a Forsaken creation, but using the shadow is not.

So who are the founders? I am right in thinking that the cult of the forgotten shadow originates from the teachigns of the holy light, only perverted?

Natalie Seline was the one who first came up with the core of those teachings.

Natalie Seline was a bishop from Lordaeron that, after the First War, began to delve into workings of the orc necrolytes who had poured through the Dark Portal and desecrated their hallowed dead. While at first this was done in order to provide Azeroth with the knowledge it needed to fight against such dark magic, her studies over the years became increasingly obsessed with finding out why such dark energies existed at all, and why she began to see the ebb and flow of such energies in the world around her. She began preaching about the necessity of balance between dark and light, but after her death, her books were locked away in the Kirin Tor's vaults in Dalaran.

The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow was created through the (re)discovery of her teachings by Forsaken priests in Lordaeron after the capture and refurbishing of the Undercity.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Natalie_Seline
http://www.wowpedia.org/Cult_of_the_Forgotten_Shadow

Edit:

09/04/2012 00:58Posted by Duurna

So to clarfiy - The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow is a Forsaken creation, but using the shadow is not.

.. Yeah, that's exactly what I said?

.. Yeah, that's exactly what I said?

Bear with me, it's late. :>

09/04/2012 00:10Posted by Darkshire

When you consider that good/right, evil/wrong and reality are all subjective my whole understanding of how the light and the shadow works turns topsy-turvy for awhile. Before I realise that faith and belief are also subjective to the individual therefore anything is possible.

Except for that one famous Metzen-quote where he states that good and evil are very real, tangible forces at play in the universe, and that Light/Shadow are manifestations of it.