Topic Unsatisfied with current state of DK's
Edited by Punishment on 11/04/12 20:14 (BST)
Hello fellow DK's. This is not a QQ or whine topic.
Having in mind overall changes in the past 2 years, DKs lost a lot of their playability. The first big recent change (nerf) was crippling the glyph of dark succor. Here are 2 things about the glyph:
1. This glyph was active and untouched from the very beginning of the WOTLK when DK class was created and became active. No one ever seemed to mind about it throughout all that time until recently in CATA it suddenly became a problem!
2. Glyph of dark succor was a part of overall concept, a part of DK mechanic and when it was nerfed, it broke the mechanism of how DK is supposed to be played. It means that DK as a class was designed with no CC's (except hungering cold, which made a DK with a recent nerf the first melee class that casts a spell), and with strong self-healing for compensation.
Next very significant nerfs were 1. hungering cold spell that got a cast time of 1.5 secs with no connection to haste (which is supposed to affect the spell and reduce its casting time, but it isn't), and 2. vengeance exemption from pvp for blood DKs. Keep in mind that vengeance was normally used in pvp for 1 year and until Death Strike was significantly buffed and made blood spec much stronger. Then, QQs started. All prot specs took the nerf without even being a part of the problem. Once again, I need to say that prot specs are designed with an additional attack power in mind to compensate the lack of offensive abilities in prot specs. And when you take away the link in the chain, the chain no longer works.
And now we come to the point to say that prot specs are not supposed to deal damage, but to have high sustainability?! I liked to play blood DK with vengeance not because I am a lame child, but because DK at that point was really playable. Now, my argument that vengeance was important (as well as unchanged glyph of dark succor and hungering cold) is a current situation in the rest of the classes:
1. Resto druid is the only class that can go bear form and successfully
survive/tank several players in healing gear. VERY OP. No one has a problem with this.
2. Feral cat druid is the only class that has 2 specs in 1 which makes it VERY OP, simply because it can switch from cat to bear according to the situation.
3. Healing spec classes can kill. Yesterday, in a random BG, 3 priests (holy and disco I pressume) killed me. As far as I know, healing spec as much as tanking spec is not supposed to deal damage.
4. Mages. Every frost mage spell is partly a CC. Frost mages have the shortest CD duration in the game and plus they have the ability to reset their CDs. No one seems to care about this absurdity because that is the mechanic of a mage class so everybody keep quiet about it.
5. Rogues. Kidney shot 6secs + dismantle 10secs + cheapshot 4secs + blind 6secs/gouge 4secs = pure CC. Do I need to say this is way toooo much CC for one of the highest damage output classes in the game. If it happens that one year CC doesn't kill a target, rogues simply move away from the target which makes them leave the combat and right into stealth...and all over again. But no one cares. Everyone accepted this because that's what rogue is.
6. Shaman. Thunderstorm spell knocked me off the cliff countless times. This is not a CC, it kills if activated in the proper moment. Its OP but doesn't matter. Lava lash crits for like 30k on blood spec.
7. Warriors. Charge + intercept, disarm 10secs, throwdown 5secs. Shield wall, retaliation. What a frost DK has to counter any of these? Unholy has a more successful lichbane which can heal DK full but it is a 2 mins CD.
I could continue to write about this but you get the point.
Death knights have been stripped down, left with nothing. But those players who still have faith, continue to lie themselves that DK is fine and even an OP class. If you had the concentration and time to read the full text I thank you for bearing with me.
P.S. Don't you dare mocking me about missing gems, items, glyphs and such. This post is purely about class mechanics, not about skills or technique. All I did was to try to explain how mechanic of a DK is currently very inferior to other classes.
Very few listened when tried to explain that neither Death Strike, nor the GoDS was the problem.
But rather the change to Frost giving two perm Death Runes.
But hey, the QQ soon shifted to Blood in PvP... And you're partly right about Vengeance.
It was fine, but as you say DS got uber Buffed (when they figured out Tanks needed a DPS/Threat buff, presumably after removing the x7 threat from IT...), but Vengance *did* get buffed as well. Making it easier and faster to stack.
As for HC, I still think the code monkeys wer tring to nerf RoF and messed up. HC ftl. I've still got it keybound. Don't think I've used it since the nerf. Such a shame. And it wasn't even unlinked from HB. /sigh
to add insult to injury hungering cold is being removed in MoP it seems
i guess they assumed that remorseless winter was better, the stun talent thatll probably never stun anything due to the amount of snare removal available...
and yea really is a shame coz i was using hungering cold from the very first day i started my dk back in wotlk
Edited by Chriiss on 16/04/12 02:10 (BST)
Well to be honest that vengeance stacking thing was op . But blizz got to far with it .
Blood dks - Impossible to be killed by warriors
Paladins dont bring a challange
Rogues - easily killed by
Frost Mages - blood dk is a free kill
warlocks/ priests/ druids / shamans all have kiting abilities ...
But lets not talk about the blood dks because "they are not supposed to be in pvp" , "they're only flag carriers " , etc , I play blood dk for the sake of wotlk when we were a dps spec . I really like this spec and i will continue playing it no matter how many times it gets nerfed / changed / or stripped of every single thing .
You are right punishment , dks (all specs) from when they were introduced in wotlk , they were nerfed , and nerfed , and then nerfed again . Rune changes (can't stand this runes) , damage changes , and cc changes .
Ohh please start laughing around calling dks op and stuff like that , that just proves how mature you are .
And on second thought , what do we get in MOP ? A stun ... and some tier 6 talents that will be kind of useless compared with what other classes get . A mass deathgrip , an aoe slow around youreself that ends with a stun (if someone if brain damaged enough not to escape in 6 seconds) and a kind of death and decay where you wont be cc'ed ( yea cooll just move out of the area and w8 ).
And what the mages get ? A no cooldown evocation with 30% increased damage , 2 totem like things with 30% increase damage and 200% mana regen , warlock are becoming one men armys , warriors are becoming unstopable ... Just awesome
I just want our class feeling back , dks seem a lot more different like they were in wotlk and the future will tear this class even more .
Edited by Ðroc on 16/04/12 04:00 (BST)
u bought PVP boots with crit and reforged to haste.
there are pvp boots with pure haste. nuff said, ur opionion doesn't matter anymore
edit numero uno:had to edit silly misspellingz xoxoxo
edit numero dos: also UH dk speccing into blade barrier.
AND EVEN WORSE: frost specced into scent of blood
my eyes.... bleeding
i did some research and found 0 reasons why your voice shouldn't be forever muted.
also, buff rouges.
the glyph of dark succor was created in a patch in cataclysm im sure because of dks being rather too soft and it was there to help them with that... however, due to significat abuse by blood dks it ended up getting hugely nerfed to where its useless in arena and rather meh in BGs
Edited by Fixx on 17/04/12 10:13 (BST)
the glyph of dark succor was created in a patch in cataclysm im sure because of dks being rather too soft and it was there to help them with that... however, due to significat abuse by FROST dks it ended up getting hugely nerfed to where its useless in arena and rather meh in BGs
this is hence the reason why frost had more than one nerf that said patch
just as a side note to the op about dark succor, the current state its in is actually closer to the original death strike ie the death part is actually quite Literal meaning it was a heal after the death of something
Edited by Punishment on 17/04/12 12:59 (BST)
Thank you all for replying to my thread. As I said "This thread is about class mechanics" that is going down, and I just wished to have a nice, friendly, collaborative atmosphere about it. Instead, you flamed me about boots and 1 talent. I never said I'm a good DK player. I'm very far from being good, let alone perfect, so these mistakes you found about my char are somehow exaggerated because that's not what this is all about.
Anyways, thanks again.
it is also a completely different spec today than what it was in wrath so i really wouldn't find that point very valid tbh
Edited by Taril on 17/04/12 16:21 (BST)
Glyph of Dark Succor, the original made your Death Strike heal at least 20% of you maximum health if you were in Frost or Unholy Presence... This was and is quite silly powerful, as it means that you can sacrifice 2 damaging attacks for 40% of your health.
I agree that the new glyph is pretty "Meh" with it being your next Death Strike health at least 20% of your maximum health after killing a target worth experience or honour, since the only place it's any good is questing.
But as has been pointed out it was not released in WotLK. DK's did fine in WotLK without it (True some of that expansion had DK's being stupidly powerful to get people to play them and get them to max level quickly) then the glyph was released and I really had no idea why (It didn't seem necessary) and did lead to a lot of crying from people facing Blood DK's who got extra damage from Frost/Unholy presence whilst also having huge healing from this glyph.
Hungering Cold I agree with, I didn't get a huge amount of use out of it, but I did use it a lot, I found it very helpful when facing multiple targets or when I needed an bit of extra breathing space in a 1v1 fight. Now with it having a cast time I get no use out of it (1.5 second cast time and 40 Runic power without the glyph makes it a pain to get off at the right time) and with it being connected to Howling Blast it sucks that I actually have to pick it up.
And to address your points:
1) As far as I'm aware Resto druids are currently laughed at for being the weakest healers in Arena to the point where they are seen as a free kill (I've seen some get taken down pretty easily)
2) Note that the majority of rogues and warriors that are being vocal seem to agree that Feral druids are extremely powerful due to their ability to be high DPS characters that can switch into a pretty decent tank form (Also note that Druids are getting a seperate Tank and Feral DPS spec in MoP)
3) "Yesterday, in a random BG 3 priests"... Not only is that a random BG in which any spec can do almost anything well, you talk about a 3v1 situation involving a class which one of their healing specs (Discipline) gets bonuses to damaging attacks (Not big ones though) did you expect to out DPS the heals being put out and out heal the damage being put out by 3 healing classes?
4) Uhh... A lot of people are currently complaining about Frost Mages and how powerful they are. Some people are also complaining about well played Fire Mages as well. So yeah... People aren't being quiet about mages...
5) Rogues have to make a choice when opening "Cheap shot or damaging opener" then followed by "Kindey Shot or damaging finisher" which can be countered by a trinket or a team mates CC/Pressure, if they don't get to do much in the stun then it's wasted (Until they restealth and wait for the CD to finish off repsectively). There are also multiple ways of lowering Disarm duration (Be they weapon chains or I think there is a talent or 2 somewhere, heck some people have a weapon chain on an alternate weapon and switch to it when they know a disarm is going to come out) and also CC can help prevent the rogue from taking advantage of said unarmed time. Blind has a 2 minute CD (Unless reset with Preparation) which limits it's use, it also breaks on damage meaning that you need to be cleared of DoT effects while it's active.
6) Don't let a elemental shaman walk right next to you when you're standing at the edge of a cliff? Also try Anti-Magic Shell/Icebound Fortitude if you're taking a lot of damage from Lava Lash
7) What does a Frost DK have to counter those? Icebound Fortitude has immunity to stun for the duration which prevents the stun from Charge/Intercept (They share CD so you'll only get hit once per 15-30 seconds) and also Throwdown, disarm is countered by Slowing the Warrior (Their slows are pretty pants and warriors lack mobility outside of Charge + Heroic Leap) Shield Wall and Retaliation are countered by switching onto his healer (A warrior pretty much needs a healer to do much in PvP since they lack mobility and survivability.
The only thing I miss about the old days of DK's is my Unholy Tank spec, I loved that (Since I like being based off diseases but hated the pet that you get stuck with, the tank spec didn't utilise the pet) especially when up against casting mobs (I'd take little to no damage) and keeping up AoE threat (Buffed up DnD, Diseases hitting like a truck on everything and Corpse Explosion for high threat when switching targets on trash)
Blade barrier stacks more strongly when you have higher existing dmg mitigation. It doesn't just stack linearly. The more resi you have the stronger BB is. Bladed Armour on tho other hand scales poorly with gear. Plus as it's just AP not str your pet doesn't even scale with it :( given the dmg you take in a bomb dance that is pretty much unavoidable survival is good.
Back on topic, GoDS was plain broken. It was bad enough when you could heal 40% of your HP every 8secs. With the perma death runes it just ridiculous. You could turtle whilst spamming FS crits!
The HC nerf was just as stupid however. Adding a cast time to an ability with an 8yd range was just brain dead. It showed Blizz have no interest in fixing pvp, just stopping the swathe of qq threads about it. They should have taken the Howl glyph from locks too...
Your class is too versatile as it is. With your ranged spells (Howling Blast Spam? GG), stupid Blood Mastery and anti this and anti that.
You can't have it all. At least this way two of your spec might take a slither of a fraction of a molecule of skill.
old glyph of succor was completely broken.
Your class is too versatile as it is. With your ranged spells (Howling Blast Spam? GG), stupid Blood Mastery and anti this and anti that.
i can spec blood & kill you casually pressing my death strike button, 1,1,1,1,