World of Warcraft®

16/04/2012 18:20Posted by Éddy

Difficulty is highly subjective to the people involved anyway

<3

Ok....
Here's how this works: you cant play the "i dont have as much time" card when we're talking about a boss that dies in 2 hours from the first pull.
How can you mathematically prove setup related 10 man issues? how can you mathematically prove strategy related issues? how can you mathematically prove anything besides the DPS requirements for a boss to die and how much damage an ability does 10/25man... giving out numbers that dont define anything isnt proving, and having a bigger number on 25 man isnt the result of "math showing otherwise".
While i am of the opinion most of the 25man bosses are harder than the 10man versions, Zonozz was one of those where i had a much "harder" time on 10man. Usually the healers couldnt keep up with all the damage and dispelling + tank damage + moving away if they got the debuff + not having certain cooldowns available because circumstances forced them to use them before... on 25man the boss was way easier to heal in both phases compared to 10man aswell as requiring more/better dps than on 25man.
Again as i said, this is just my opinion and it may come from setup issues or strategy issues, but pure math in itself doesnt work the way you use it on a bossfight, too many variable that you dont take into account with just using a damage multiplier. It may work on Ultraxion for example, but not here.

2 hours? It took you 2 days after you killed Hagara. Hagara kill happened on December 8th while Zon Ozz happened on December 10th? That card he "played" on is very "playable" in this case. From what i could see 1st day 10 man guilds were killing it in 10 pulls.

You know stuffs are so much easier after you kill them 1st time in different size,you are missing whole progression patch into encounter.

What oO?
I killed the first 4 bosses during the first raid in DS and it was in 25man, only attempted 10man quite some time later, so what kind of drugs are you on?

What oO?
I killed the first 4 bosses during the first raid in DS and it was in 25man, only attempted 10man quite some time later, so what kind of drugs are you on?

Wait wat, please elaborate. Did you kill them on heroic as your guilds firstkills or were you just in for the ride on a farm raid?

You forget that he was banned the first progress week
I think it was a alt or friend raid who killed this bosses in the first week.
In the secound week they killed the first 4 bosses in 1 day in 25man heroic.

We progressed with friends' accounts and some member who were not banned and killed the first 5 heroic bosses in 10man heroic in 1 day

What oO?
I killed the first 4 bosses during the first raid in DS and it was in 25man, only attempted 10man quite some time later, so what kind of drugs are you on?

Wait wat, please elaborate. Did you kill them on heroic as your guilds firstkills or were you just in for the ride on a farm raid?

if you check my achievment dates/wowprogress you see its firstkills

16/04/2012 16:13Posted by Dracodraco

Zonozz always seemed harder on 10man for me

16/04/2012 16:13Posted by Dracodraco

Eh, no it's not. 2/10 for troll attempt tho.

Dude, don't just strike every person with an opinion down, he said FOR ME.

draco for president tbh ;)
1/2 way threw the 1st page of this topic i was already laughing on the floor

good aoe controll and it's a walk in the park, plus a tank that knows how to kite

Ok....
Here's how this works: you cant play the "i dont have as much time" card when we're talking about a boss that dies in 2 hours from the first pull.
How can you mathematically prove setup related 10 man issues? how can you mathematically prove strategy related issues? how can you mathematically prove anything besides the DPS requirements for a boss to die and how much damage an ability does 10/25man... giving out numbers that dont define anything isnt proving, and having a bigger number on 25 man isnt the result of "math showing otherwise".
While i am of the opinion most of the 25man bosses are harder than the 10man versions, Zonozz was one of those where i had a much "harder" time on 10man. Usually the healers couldnt keep up with all the damage and dispelling + tank damage + moving away if they got the debuff + not having certain cooldowns available because circumstances forced them to use them before... on 25man the boss was way easier to heal in both phases compared to 10man aswell as requiring more/better dps than on 25man.
Again as i said, this is just my opinion and it may come from setup issues or strategy issues, but pure math in itself doesnt work the way you use it on a bossfight, too many variable that you dont take into account with just using a damage multiplier. It may work on Ultraxion for example, but not here.

I can. The people who play in guilds like Envy are usually the ones who dedicate a !@#$ton of their time to studying the fights, attempt them on PTR, attempt heroic-mode tactics on normal for the first reset (or in your guys case, run LFR fifteen thousand times).
The fact that you killed it faster than me says more about your guild than how you're better than me (say hi to Kibu from me btw, ask him if I'm good or not. I'm sure he'll vouch). We spent roughly 5 hours progressing on Zon'ozz from the bottom, and we hadn't had 10 of our raiders kill him in 10 man before we did him in 25. We went in empty handed, with barely any video's aviable of him, while you guys went at the 25 man version the second week of HC's due to your ban, which means plenty of videos (heck, even ours) were up when you killed it. That alone would give you an edge tactic-wise, as you could revise your strats from what other 25 man guilds had done, instead of comming up with them on your own.

In the end, what I'm getting at here is:
While it might have been easier for you, every single mathematical and logic way to think of it proves that 10 man is easier than 25 man. That you apparantly did it with people who tried to use a retarded tactic in 10 man, didn't pull their weight, or just flat out failed is not proof that a fight is harder in 10 man.
I mean, if I say (hypothetical scenario that never happened, just so people don't try to fling it at me) that ultraxion 10 man was alot harder than 25 because we constantly had a DPS die to Fading Light, would that make 10 man harder than 25? No, it means that in the 10 man someone was being an idiot. 10 Man ultrax would still be stupidly much easier due to healthpool, yadayada.

We're all entitled to our opinions, but telling me off by saying that I don't have my facts straight, or stating that I am not right without giving me any other evidence than "you're wrong, I killed the boss quicker than you in 25 man" is just completly retarded.

draco for president tbh ;)
1/2 way threw the 1st page of this topic i was already laughing on the floor

good aoe controll and it's a walk in the park, plus a tank that knows how to kite

With or at me. I need to know if I should get Miley to smack your face.

Miley stopped as far as i know.... So if you want tell him to log on for once and i can slap his !@# XD owyeah while you say that, go tell him to buy a mic as well,
Why should i be against you, with you on the numbers, laughing at the comments after your reply to the main question.

btw @ envy mage, is narub still playing there? That dutch scrub ;)

^.
Dutch ftw, SHOO.

niks mis met Nederlanders ;) (sorry for the dutch)
joined LFR yesterday 75% of the LFR was dutch derp

I can. The people who play in guilds like Envy are usually the ones who dedicate a !@#$ton of their time to studying the fights, attempt them on PTR, attempt heroic-mode tactics on normal for the first reset (or in your guys case, run LFR fifteen thousand times).
The fact that you killed it faster than me says more about your guild than how you're better than me (say hi to Kibu from me btw, ask him if I'm good or not. I'm sure he'll vouch). We spent roughly 5 hours progressing on Zon'ozz from the bottom, and we hadn't had 10 of our raiders kill him in 10 man before we did him in 25. We went in empty handed, with barely any video's aviable of him, while you guys went at the 25 man version the second week of HC's due to your ban, which means plenty of videos (heck, even ours) were up when you killed it. That alone would give you an edge tactic-wise, as you could revise your strats from what other 25 man guilds had done, instead of comming up with them on your own.

In the end, what I'm getting at here is:
While it might have been easier for you, every single mathematical and logic way to think of it proves that 10 man is easier than 25 man. That you apparantly did it with people who tried to use a retarded tactic in 10 man, didn't pull their weight, or just flat out failed is not proof that a fight is harder in 10 man.
I mean, if I say (hypothetical scenario that never happened, just so people don't try to fling it at me) that ultraxion 10 man was alot harder than 25 because we constantly had a DPS die to Fading Light, would that make 10 man harder than 25? No, it means that in the 10 man someone was being an idiot. 10 Man ultrax would still be stupidly much easier due to healthpool, yadayada.

We're all entitled to our opinions, but telling me off by saying that I don't have my facts straight, or stating that I am not right without giving me any other evidence than "you're wrong, I killed the boss quicker than you in 25 man" is just completly retarded.

I didnt tell you off from the start, if you got that impression then we had a misunderstanding. I stated my opinion, but you dismissed me as a troll...
claiming some1 might be retarded in the 10man version of my fight, the same can happen for the ppl in your version of the 25man... im just trying to say things are relative, and just "higher" damage in this case doesnt mean the fight if de facto harder on 25man....yes, the setup might have been suboptimal and the strategy aswell, but you guys alone and your experience isnt enough to state something as pure fact and dismiss other people. anyway, as i stated before i find this argument a bit pointless.

you touched a delicate subject in your first paragraph tho, so ill respond to it:
Heroic 25man Zonozz was on the ptr for 1 evening for about 2-3hours, that version was prolly 20% harder than the one that went live (more damage on the raid, more Boss HP), and in that timewindow we killed it on the PTR (so no, we didnt have any videos available), with the !@#$ty chars and laggy PTR. We had a working strat for the boss from then on, and <Envy>'s first raid of any kind on live Dragon Soul HC was on the 14th of December, we didnt do any 10mans of any kind (if theres any mess with that on Wowprogress its due to other people joining later on with eariler kills on some stuff).
And im sure you werent serious with the Normal/LFR mode testing of heroic bosses since youre in a decent guild yourself you know its not even remotely similar to Heroic mode where you could test anything out. The reason for the large amounts of LFR was the same as with other topguilds, maxing out on trinkets and 4set, everyone knew bossmechanics anyway.

Copperkop - yes narub still plays (alot!) on several characters, and hes doing fine :)

16/04/2012 18:20Posted by Éddy

Difficulty is highly subjective to the people involved anyway

I like this statement. And on whole 10 vs 25, as I said earlier (draco probably noticed) - I am one of those "OMG WHY, BLIZZARD WHY YOU HATE ME"-25rs who is forced to do 10 man. And my team is exactly under 2 months old and we are weeks behind. But the raw comparison from 25 to 10 was like : "is this for real?" we did 1st heroics 10 and 25 (before guild split) and even as simple fights like Ultraxion were not even close to be compared.

But coming to the quote - indeed difficulty is highly subjective to the people involved. Heck even between the 2 raid teams we have now. My team has not even remotely same problems other team has, and we've never even considered 2 tank madness in 10 while other team killed and used 2 tanks. And we do not have resto shaman which brought us whole different issues.

But in overall i envy Draco... he can raid 25s in heroic. Come outland so i could join you :'(

You can always transfer to a realm where they do raid 25 hc?

17/04/2012 09:09Posted by Thargix

You can always transfer to a realm where they do raid 25 hc?

Transfer my 5 characters.

17/04/2012 09:14Posted by Naq

You can always transfer to a realm where they do raid 25 hc?

Transfer my 5 characters.

Because you need all 5 to raid, amiright? Transfer main, level new alt, have it in 390+ average a week after dinging 85. Done.

17/04/2012 09:22Posted by Dracodraco

Transfer my 5 characters.

Because you need all 5 to raid, amiright? Transfer main, level new alt, have it in 390+ average a week after dinging 85. Done.

Because I have nothing else to do than leveling another set of alts I already have. Oh, and leveling is just too fun.

im just trying to say things are relative, and just "higher" damage in this case doesnt mean the fight if de facto harder on 25man....

I'm just going to adress this as my new sleep medication has !@#$ed me up badly so I'm half awake, half asleep now (not much different from normal, but still).

If having a higher dps requirement and a higher healing requirement with the exact same mechanics (EG, no actual change regarding what people has to do in order to kill the boss - it's not like how 10 man takes green ooze on yorsahj, and 25 man can't - it's the exact same mechanics you have to handle, just scaled down from 25 targets to 10 targets) does not make a fight harder, then what does? Because thats what the difference here is - 10 man takes so little dmg that they can change the tactics, but if we assumed the same tactic used between the two difficulties, then the ONLY difference is the damage taken, which is much lower in 10.

Because you need all 5 to raid, amiright? Transfer main, level new alt, have it in 390+ average a week after dinging 85. Done.

Because I have nothing else to do than leveling another set of alts I already have. Oh, and leveling is just too fun.

Then you don't want it badly enough. Not my issue. I transferred 4 alts to LS over a period of a year, no one says you have to do it instantly. Besides, there's 4 25 man guilds on your realm with 8/8 heroic.

And something else that just struck me - levelling an alt from 1-85 is a waste of time to you, yet gearing up your alts for... Nothing! is not? They won't help your guilds progress in the next tier, and you won't get any use for the gear this tier on progress.
So basicly, you're either -
A: Wasting time gearing your alts for nothing.
B: Wasting time levelling your alts.
Or C: Spend time IRL instead of online. But if you chose option C, then why would you need to complain about transferring your alts?

What oO?
I killed the first 4 bosses during the first raid in DS and it was in 25man, only attempted 10man quite some time later, so what kind of drugs are you on?

So you killed it on the PTR... There is simple reason why fight seems easier,you have skipped whole encounter learning after it went live, + Blood Legion videos that were posted 1 day after kill.

Also math is countering your post so hard. :)