Topic
Spine of Deathwing 25man heroic bloods on last tendon
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Edited by Althaea on 17/04/12 16:11 (BST)
I agree with a lot of the stuff you say, Draco, even if I do argue with some of it, but here's a flaw in what you just said:
Most 25 man guilds who killed spine heroic managed to quickly kill Madness after that. Again, I quote: Most 25 man guilds who killed spine heroic managed to quickly kill Madness after that. And then you say that 10-man Madness is easier than 25-man? Okay. |
But question is, as I said on my last post : Is it because fight mechanics or group set up and roster? |
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But question is, as I said on my last post : Is it because fight mechanics or group set up and roster? Didn't see your post, you must have posted when I was typing. Sure, some difficulties can come from the roster of the guild, I don't deny that. That's one of the bigger difficulties of a 10-man, not always having something you need, which you can't disregard as a non-difficulty. Even with a spriest/mage/rogue/hunter taking an impale, things can still go askew just as much as they can in 25-man. ;) |
I agree with a lot of the stuff you say, Draco, even if I do argue with some of it, but here's a flaw in what you just said:Most 25 man guilds who killed spine heroic managed to quickly kill Madness after that. I fail to see where my flaw is. Reread it. The difficulty goes: 25 man spine > 25 man madness > 10 man madness > 10 man spine. It makes perfect sense. The dweeb pulling the wowprogress numbers assume that because alot of 10 man guilds are stuck on heroic madness after killing spine, and very few 25 man guilds are stuck on madness after killing spine, that 10 man madness is harder than 25 man madness. The dweeb forgets to consider that 10 man spine is much easier than 25 man spine, which means that even if a 10 man guild kills spine, it doesn't mean they're good enough to kill madness in 10 man, while if a 25 man guild kills spine, they will be able to kill 25 man madness. I can also rate the difficulty by letters if that'll help you understand - A, B, C D. Difficulty for 25 man: Spine: A. Madness: B. Difficulty for 10 man: Spine: D. Madness: C. You understand, yesyes? |
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Edited by Althaea on 17/04/12 16:42 (BST)
Sigh. I don't deny that 25man Spine is much harder than 10man Spine, but then again I don't have an ego that I need flattering every 5seconds to make me feel good about myself. Difficulty actually goes:
Spine 25 > Madness 10 > Madness 25 > Spine 10. As I've said to Clárissa in the past, which he didn't deny: keep telling yourself that to soothe your ego. with all this bragging about 25man difficulties, you must be trying to compensate for something. Laters xoxo |
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Edited by Dracodraco on 17/04/12 16:47 (BST)
Sigh. I don't deny that 25man Spine is much harder than 10man Spine, but then again I don't have an ego that I need flattering every 5seconds to make me feel good about myself. Difficulty actually goes: See. That I don't get. You say there's a flaw in what I said, yet you don't point the flaw out - as every other 10 man raider, you just mindlessly go "HERPDERP MADNESS10>25". Feel free to disprove what I said on the former pages if you feel like, but as long as your argument is "it's just harder because it is" without anything but the word of someone who hasn't tried both difficulties, then you're just making a fool of yourself :/. And hey, why compensate when I'm in a stable relationship :p. I just don't get how stupid some people can be, and it amuses me to no end. |
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Edited by Chrisbehk on 17/04/12 17:13 (BST)
i have not done 25 man madness, nor 25 man spine, but i generally collect information on it and make my own judgement as to whats harder in the 10 or 25 man scene, i can see that spine is harder on 25 man for a number of reasons you have listed.
your logic goes that because 25 man spine is significantly harder than 25 man madness, when you reach 25 man madness you destroy it, and for 10 mans its spine is just so easy that madness seems hard. first i would like to say the hardest thing about madness is keeping focused for 15 minutes. that goes for both 10 and 25 man. my judgement on the situation was that 10 man madness is harder simply because of the mistake allowance between 10 and 25 man. for example, i know of guilds that got first kills dispite having people dead from falling into the water because the fight bugged out. being able to do the entire last phase with people dead simply was NOT possible in the 10 man version of the fight before the nerf. (not with the gear we had at the time anyway) both 10 and 25 man can drop a tank for an extra dps, if im not mistaken 25 mans dont bother because the first phases arent hard enough and you (might) lose dps from the melee having to distance themselves from the big tentacle. 10 mans needed that extra dps otherwise you pushed the fight into extremely hard dps-wise boundaries. we DID do the fight with 2 tanks 2 weeks afterwards so that the other tank (prot warrior tank who couldnt go because you just COULD NOT take him to solo tank it) could get the pre-nerf kill date. and it was ALOT harder simply because of the lack of everything that having 1 less dps causes. being a fairly hardcore guild we didnt really have class stacking problems. but i can see that having been a problem for later 10 man guilds. (although like most guilds we did class stack, but i did not really see many 25 man guilds needing to class stack very much for it, exceptions do exist though.) most of our progression time was spent keeping concerntration on the first 4 parts of madness, and then getting to the last phase and being utterly wrecked, it took us a few days to figure everything out and work out tactics for it, including letting the tank (me) die on the first amalgamations, and then CRing me for the 2nd ones. on the kill, we already had someone dead that we had to CR. so i HAD to use cooldowns to survive the first one, and then by some miracle i stayed up long enough for the 2nd ones to not rampage when i died, the plan was that if we got the bloods fast enough we could aoe the 2nd adds down with them. or if it was already sub 5% nuke it down, but this didnt go as planned. because it requires an element of RNG. although any RNG on that last phase can be planned for and worked around, so i dont believe its a good canditate for pointng out why the fights harder, as you would suffer from it on 25 man aswell. we had to mess around our setup alot to fit a rogue in for slows, i cannot see that being a problem in 25 man at all, and if you did run with 1 tank you could basicly NOT heal him for the amalgamations and then CR him later. even if you already had 2 people who died and were CRed before, it didnt matter. i personally think the mistake allowance is alot bigger on the 25 man version of the fight, on the 10 man version it is VERY unforgiving and put that together with very tedious your gonna have a bad time. When we were first progressing on it even a minor mistake meant it was wipe time. i have not done it on 25 man. This is my educated guess view on the issue from doing it on 10 man edit: and i accept that this subject is very dependant on your point of view, i just though i would give MY point of view and maybe back up a little bit what my friend Althaea a few posts back states =) |
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Ok, see, this I can work with. Thank you Chris :p.
And some of your assumptions are correct, but others (while valid) are wrong. first i would like to say the hardest thing about madness is keeping focused for 15 minutes. that goes for both 10 and 25 man. my judgement on the situation was that 10 man madness is harder simply because of the mistake allowance between 10 and 25 man. for example, i know of guilds that got first kills dispite having people dead from falling into the water because the fight bugged out. being able to do the entire last phase with people dead simply was NOT possible in the 10 man version of the fight before the nerf. (not with the gear we had at the time anyway) The "keeping focused" part goes for any encounter, though - and spine has the same length, and is just as repetive. In any case, you wouldn't be able to beat Madness with a dead person going on to the fourth platform. Going in to p2 (jump from blue->green)? Possibly. Even at 5%, beating the cataclysm timer on 25 man was strict enough that we atleast couldn't afford to lose a single dps (and if you take a look at our WOL rankings, most of our raiders are *not* "dead weight"). After we started getting Madness weapons and further nerfs? Sure. I think our first time we defeated the fourth platform with a dead person was on 10%. The Parasite too (remember, 9.5M hp divided between 17 people is ~550K dmg for each person to do in the 10 seconds it takes to do its cast. Having one person dead, and 550K less dmg, means the entire raid get hit by a 50K hit - and when 5-10 (we used 3x ranged groups with 5 persons in each and 1 melee group with 10 people for priest PoH aand to be able to cover everyone with 2x shaman healing rains for the 10% phys reduc / hp buffer vs crush) people get hit by a crush directly after, it's just as dangerous a situation on the fourth platform as if you were down a person. Which it really shouldn't be, as losing 1 dps in 25 man should be comparable to one of your dps'ers losing 33% of his dps-capability. And if there's one thing that never was an issue, it was the parasites. If it was because our tank is able to push about as much dps by landing a few deathstrikes on it as our other dps can in the 10 second window, I don't know, but I imagine it might be - having to rely on 6 dps to do 500K dmg per is a much better situation than having to rely on 17 people to do 500K per. So no - during progress, having a dead person on the fourth platform was not an option. On the final? As said, probably doable. both 10 and 25 man can drop a tank for an extra dps, if im not mistaken 25 mans dont bother because the first phases arent hard enough and you (might) lose dps from the melee having to distance themselves from the big tentacle. 10 mans needed that extra dps otherwise you pushed the fight into extremely hard dps-wise boundaries. we DID do the fight with 2 tanks 2 weeks afterwards so that the other tank (prot warrior tank who couldnt go because you just COULD NOT take him to solo tank it) could get the pre-nerf kill date. and it was ALOT harder simply because of the lack of everything that having 1 less dps causes. being a fairly hardcore guild we didnt really have class stacking problems. but i can see that having been a problem for later 10 man guilds. (although like most guilds we did class stack, but i did not really see many 25 man guilds needing to class stack very much for it, exceptions do exist though.) You are mistaken. 25 Man keeps two tanks so we are able to spellweave cleave efficiently. Using the bloods' spellweave to our advantage yields a MUCH higher dps output on targets that matter (corruption, claw, parasite) than dropping a tank for a dps. Using one tank would make the fight significantly harder on the dps in 25 man - virtually impossible with the gear aviable, really. You NEEDED the spellweave to beat the enrage timer, and if 10 mans use spellweave properly instead of just dropping a tank, they could have done the same - but adding 1 dps and taking away spellweave from the 5 other dps and just going with 2 has about the same output, as using 2 tanks with proper spellweave usage. Along with that, you are also right in your assumption about running out though - if we had to have everyone run out for every second impale, we'd lose ALOT of damage, as in 10 man, our melee just switches on to the bolt (they pretty much has to) during that anyway - but in 25 man, our ranged could handle the bolt alone as we just took all our bursty ranged classes (3x hunters, spriests, etc) to optimize dps on the parasite/bolt. most of our progression time was spent keeping concerntration on the first 4 parts of madness, and then getting to the last phase and being utterly wrecked, it took us a few days to figure everything out and work out tactics for it, including letting the tank (me) die on the first amalgamations, and then CRing me for the 2nd ones. on the kill, we already had someone dead that we had to CR. so i HAD to use cooldowns to survive the first one, and then by some miracle i stayed up long enough for the 2nd ones to not rampage when i died, the plan was that if we got the bloods fast enough we could aoe the 2nd adds down with them. or if it was already sub 5% nuke it down, but this didnt go as planned. because it requires an element of RNG. I do think our tanks died the first few kills, but we did plan what we were going to do when we went into the last phase beforehand - the tanks taunted off each other at 4 stacks, and that was that. If you'd used spellweave cleave + 2 tanks you'd probably also be able to do that. Although, in 10 man, we just killed them off, tank AMS'd to reset stacks when he hit 2-3 of them, giving him ~10 seconds of no stacks and us approx 30 seconds to kill the terrors before they killed him off (without "strong" cds). If you kept the terrors alive to spellweave cleave the bloods, you must have had either incredible timing (spawning the bloods right as the terrors pops up), or incredible luck to do so. But I can see why p2 would give you issues then - we only managed to do it that way on our first kill (dumb luck), and decided the "kill off before spawning bloods"-tactic was MUCH more reliable (fragments->terrors->bloods->bloods->fragments->terrors->bloods). although any RNG on that last phase can be planned for and worked around, so i dont believe its a good canditate for pointng out why the fights harder, as you would suffer from it on 25 man aswell. My point above <.<. we had to mess around our setup alot to fit a rogue in for slows, i cannot see that being a problem in 25 man at all, and if you did run with 1 tank you could basicly NOT heal him for the amalgamations and then CR him later. even if you already had 2 people who died and were CRed before, it didnt matter. A rogue is the best dps on the fight with spellweave cleave, so if you'd used 2 tanks it wouldn't have been "messing around", he'd have had a permanent spot :). But no, we don't have that issue on 25 man - although we did have to switch in both a resto shaman (had to sit one of our druids) alt, and a DK alt (sat prot warrior) in order to manage the external cooldowns neccessary - we needed a PS for the third platform for both our druid and warrior, but we simply didn't have 2x healing priests, so we used a DK to circumvent it instead. The shaman was essential for the healer mana, and covering half of the raid with 10% phys reduc/hp buffer during corruption phases, or crush would have wrecked us. As for the "you can have 2 people die and CR and you can still pick the tank up" - yes. Well duh. That still didn't mean that terrors is or was a non issue in 25 man - actually, the numbers from 10 man tetanus is: 72000 Phys dmg when applied. 24000 per stack. 25 man: 96000 phys dmg when applied. 36000 per stack. So it does 25% more dmg on 25 man per application, and 33% more per stack. Along with this, impale in 25 man did 1.2M dmg and in 10 man it did 840K (so 30% more). Our tanks are BOUND to get killed, more so than the 10 man tank - especially as the only aviable tank CD we'd have that you couldn't rely on a 10 man to have for every single impale would be hand of sac, which give you a 30% reduc - but as the cds doesn't stack (is it multiplicative it's called? Forgot. It's why 50% reduc + 30% reduc + 20% reduc doesn't make you invincible, anyway <.<), 25 man would still take more damage as the 30% higher dmg on impale was pre-calculations. i personally think the mistake allowance is alot bigger on the 25 man version of the fight, on the 10 man version it is VERY unforgiving and put that together with very tedious your gonna have a bad time. When we were first progressing on it even a minor mistake meant it was wipe time. See, that is no different from 25 man. If we had people run into the parasite spawn and die, sure, we'd use our combat ress - but I imagine so would you. The issue here is that in 25 man there's a MUCH bigger risk of dying due to the smaller amount of space and higher damage volumes, so we NEED the 3 combat resses. I mean. If we only get one combat ress for 25 people, then 10 man raiders should only be allowed to !@#$ up every third attempt, too. Not killing the bolt %^-*s the raid. Bad taunt on impale (or the mighty threat of DS!) !@#$s the raid. Slow dps on blistering %^-*s the raid. Standing too close to the bolt !@#$s the raid. Missing dream %^-*s the raid. Anyway, hitting character limit. I have nothing against you Chris, and I respect your opinions - I'm just tired of all the WannaBe's that can't put anything substantial behind their claims - especially on the matter of 10 vs 25 (which shouldn't even be a discussion, but here we are). |
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i dont think i can really dispute any of your points without having done the 25 man version myself, but i can see that you made some good points that i did not consider.
and yes im tired of people on both ends of the arguement screwing everything up, like trying to say 10 man is harder because you have less raid cooldowns or less people to make a roster or that 25 man is harder because its harder to get people together for it, all of which have NOTHING to do with how hard the fights are, and can only be contributed to "what is harder to organize" which is obviously 25 man. end of the day me and you both play what we enjoy, and it goes annoy me to no end recieveing flak just for doing what i enjoy. |
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Draco, one minor correction in my opinion. 10 man madness is easier than 10 man spine. Least on current state. Maybe it is for the set up of my team (1 tank, 3 healers- includes shadowpriest/rogue), where only limitation is tanks latency/brain-lag, and is not even remotely compared to the fact that spine requires whole team execute way sharper.
but that's just my opinion and semantics :) And since I never completed HC 25 man spine/madness I respect your opinion on that comparison. |
