World of Warcraft®

There is much talk these days of a Horde bias when it comes to story development in WoW. Whilst I agree in most places, I feel that in the Caverns of Time there is definitely an bias towards the Alliance.

In 3 out of the 8 instances in the CoT, Horde players are forced to take the role of Alliance races. Whilst I understand this makes sense in the context of the dungeons, I must admit I am getting sick of being a Night Elf several times a week.

Perhaps if there are future CoT instances we can explore some Horde history where Alliance players must take on the role of Horde races?

It isn't Alliance biased just because you don't break the lore by being something that has absolutely nothing to do in such a setting.

A more appropriate term would be: why are so many of the instances revolving around Alliance stories?

And as for the record, I believe one of the problems is that the most interesting(okay, I won't lie. The most important) stories revolve around alliance races.

Altough we could easily see instances of less highlighted stuff, such as:

1. Play as Horde while they wage war against the Draenei.
2. Play as Horde during the first or second war as they ravage the human lands, experience stuff most of us have never even seen or heard about.

It'd been pretty awesome playing as the Orcs while you massacre your way through the Black Temple, having to defeat the Draenei who are secretly being protected by members of the infinite dragonflight.

Or you could defend Ner'zhul while he blows up Draenor, etc.

17/04/2012 16:43Posted by Malizïa

It'd been pretty awesome playing as the Orcs while you massacre your way through the Black Temple, having to defeat the Draenei who are secretly being protected by members of the infinite dragonflight.

Now this is a instance I would love to do.

Alliance do seem to have a lot more important early stories however i'm sure even something like the founding of durotar and the allying with the tauren would be something many horde players would love to see in the game rather than in warcraft 3 and its low graphics.

the Instances revolve around Alliance stories because..hey, wait, they don't. The revolve around Iconic stories.

Durnholde:- Free Thrall! Horde story.
Dark Portal:- Bring the Horde to Azeroth! Horde Story.
Mount Hyjal:- Save the World! Neutral Story.
Strath:- Watch Arthas fall! Alliance story.
New stuff:- See how awesome Thrall is! Idiotic Story.

17/04/2012 17:12Posted by Korae

Strath:- Watch Arthas fall! Alliance story.

Didn't you read the Kosak interview? It's Horde lore now!

Jokes aside, the big issue is that a lot of what the Horde did in the past was flat out evil. While it certainly does introduce moral dilemmas, its going to interesting telling players that they're supposed to be outright evil, committing massacres, destroying planets, that kinda thing. Or you're losing. Also, having the (old) Horde murder the Draenei is probably going to be seen as "Horde get to have a glorious massacre of an alliance race", even if they're not yet alliance (and not really Horde), and it's mostly that or against the Humans/old alliance. The Ner'zhul thing could well work, though it would be hard to fit into the storyline as it is.

Actually, thinking on it, Tomb of Sargeras with Gul'dan. No outright targeted villainy and murder, could easily be arranged to fit into an Aszhara themed expansion, decent set up for events on both side. Bit of an issue in that it's kinda a major Horde failure though.

You won't get any horde CoT instances because the horde's history is in being the bad guys who ulimately lost.

How fun is it to play through a dungeon against your own team and then complete it by losing?

Now this is a instance I would love to do.

Alliance do seem to have a lot more important early stories however i'm sure even something like the founding of durotar and the allying with the tauren would be something many horde players would love to see in the game rather than in warcraft 3 and its low graphics.

They might want to change the looks of the players gears as well though for such an instance.

I mean... standing next to Thrall in his rugged plate armor and his grunts wearing scraps of leather and loincloths with only the occassional rusty scavanged chainmail, whereas you're wearing a super fancy plastic over-the-top dragonball come Final fantasy styled japeneese manga armor, with more lights than a runway and a mount that can put Disneyland to shame.

It might look... very out of place.

Two potential stories that I think they should have in CoT (provided Blizz will keep using the place):

Siege of Stormwind, from the first war. Help the Old Horde burn that bastion of humanity to the ground. Good way to help people symphatise with Varian Wrynn and why he hates the Horde.

Assault on Blackrock Spire, from the second war. Help Turalyon (who really should have been brought bac into the game by now) to break the spine of the Old Horde. Good way to contrast the Horde as it is today against it roots in the first and second wars.

Personally I'd love a CoT: Dalaran Prisons where you help Kael and the other Blood Elves escape (being transformed into a Blood Elf yourself).

the Instances revolve around Alliance stories because..hey, wait, they don't. The revolve around Iconic stories.

Durnholde:- Free Thrall! Horde story.
Dark Portal:- Bring the Horde to Azeroth! Horde Story.
Mount Hyjal:- Save the World! Neutral Story.
Strath:- Watch Arthas fall! Alliance story.
New stuff:- See how awesome Thrall is! Idiotic Story.

I find it quite funny, I mean the primary Horde Dungeon is Durnholde where you get to slaughter a bunch of humans and the primary Alliance Dungeon is Stratholme where you get to slaughter a bunch of humans! :D

18/04/2012 11:19Posted by Kurgul

Siege of Stormwind, from the first war. Help the Old Horde burn that bastion of humanity to the ground. Good way to help people symphatise with Varian Wrynn and why he hates the Horde.

No, just no. This would go way to far. Implimenting something like this isn't a good idea at all. The Orcs didn't simply burn Stormwind. They slaughtered the inhabitants of Stormwind, everyone they could get a hold of, they burned the whole city to the ground and commited lots of atrocities and war crimes.
Just think about how most of the Human/Orc hybrids came into existance (or the Draenei/Orc) ones and you would know why this would be a very very bad idea. Would you honestly like to see something like that made into an dungeon and you're helping these Orcs to do these things. Standing by while they happen?

WC2 battles would be great, and fitting as they have said they wanted MoP to be like WC2.

No, just no. This would go way to far. Implimenting something like this isn't a good idea at all. The Orcs didn't simply burn Stormwind. They slaughtered the inhabitants of Stormwind, everyone they could get a hold of, they burned the whole city to the ground and commited lots of atrocities and war crimes.
Just think about how most of the Human/Orc hybrids came into existance (or the Draenei/Orc) ones and you would know why this would be a very very bad idea. Would you honestly like to see something like that made into an dungeon and you're helping these Orcs to do these things. Standing by while they happen?

If anything, this game could use a little more darkness. We slaughter mobs all the time, and a Siege of Stormwind doesn't mean we do everything that the orcs did back then.

There's been enough tea sharing and let's just hope Blizzard will never bing out something like the ''army of the light''. That would be a real tragedy to the story. I'm thoroughly done with the WC3 model. Let the Horde continue as it is now, and let the Alliance be darker as well (scarlets would be such a fine addition).

No, just no. This would go way to far. Implimenting something like this isn't a good idea at all. The Orcs didn't simply burn Stormwind. They slaughtered the inhabitants of Stormwind, everyone they could get a hold of, they burned the whole city to the ground and commited lots of atrocities and war crimes.
Just think about how most of the Human/Orc hybrids came into existance (or the Draenei/Orc) ones and you would know why this would be a very very bad idea. Would you honestly like to see something like that made into an dungeon and you're helping these Orcs to do these things. Standing by while they happen?

There is no reason why those particular acts should be shown in game, or even mentioned. We had Culling of Stratholme too, but it didn't involve running around slaughtering human children.

Siege of Stormwind could very well work even if we only fight the military, guards and some bosses.

No, just no. This would go way to far. Implimenting something like this isn't a good idea at all. The Orcs didn't simply burn Stormwind. They slaughtered the inhabitants of Stormwind, everyone they could get a hold of, they burned the whole city to the ground and commited lots of atrocities and war crimes.
Just think about how most of the Human/Orc hybrids came into existance (or the Draenei/Orc) ones and you would know why this would be a very very bad idea. Would you honestly like to see something like that made into an dungeon and you're helping these Orcs to do these things. Standing by while they happen?

There is no reason why those particular acts should be shown in game, or even mentioned. We had Culling of Stratholme too, but it didn't involve running around slaughtering human children.

Siege of Stormwind could very well work even if we only fight the military, guards and some bosses.

I'm not saying that you need to have the players play target practise with the kids in the Stormwind city orphanage, but one thing I've liked about CoT is that it's an oppotunity to revisist some of the darker, more 'Diablo-esque' moments of WarCrafts history.

Yes, the Siege of Stormwind was one of the darkest moments in proto-Alliance history, but so was the Culling of Stratholme; the Battle of Mount Hyjal didn't exactly go minty fresh either. But if you're worried about... stuff-that-can't-be-mentioned-on-this-forum-for-fear-of-the-banhammer... then you could always have the instance be something like strategic insertion.

Orcs are outside the city gates, but they can't break through (because of the Infinite Flight), so you get to climb the walls and open the gate from the inside, for example. The whole instance could play out like this. Horde keeps getting stonewalled at points, and you need to help history play out the way it did by pummeling some npc into the turf.

If anything, this game could use a little more darkness. We slaughter mobs all the time, and a Siege of Stormwind doesn't mean we do everything that the orcs did back then.

There's been enough tea sharing and let's just hope Blizzard will never bing out something like the ''army of the light''. That would be a real tragedy to the story. I'm thoroughly done with the WC3 model. Let the Horde continue as it is now, and let the Alliance be darker as well (scarlets would be such a fine addition).

It's not about doing what the Orcs did back then, but actually helping them to be able to do so and stand by while they commit these atrocities. It's not simply about killing these people, the Orcs did some very very nasty things. I mean things like that human sacrifices, attempted genocide, rape and the likes. Would you really like to stay by and watch these things, knowing that you helped them come to be?
I think I would either stay clear of these instances completly, or I would've to constantly run to the bathroom to throw up.

I'm not saying that you need to have the players play target practise with the kids in the Stormwind city orphanage, but one thing I've liked about CoT is that it's an oppotunity to revisist some of the darker, more 'Diablo-esque' moments of WarCrafts history.

Yes, the Siege of Stormwind was one of the darkest moments in proto-Alliance history, but so was the Culling of Stratholme; the Battle of Mount Hyjal didn't exactly go minty fresh either. But if you're worried about... stuff-that-can't-be-mentioned-on-this-forum-for-fear-of-the-banhammer... then you could always have the instance be something like strategic insertion.

Well I mentioned some of this stuff, it's in the WoW lore so why should one be banned for it? This instance would either end up white washing the old Horde and what happened back then because it wouldn't show most of the atrocities at all or it wouldn't be anything you could show in WoW in it's current form.
Let's just stay clear of it, please? We can have other things, like the battle for Blackrock.

Orcs are outside the city gates, but they can't break through (because of the Infinite Flight), so you get to climb the walls and open the gate from the inside, for example. The whole instance could play out like this. Horde keeps getting stonewalled at points, and you need to help history play out the way it did by pummeling some npc into the turf.

Yes, and then you could stay by watching the Orcs storming the city. Hear the pleas and cries of children being slaughtered, the cries and sobbing of women being dragged of by orcs and the likes.
Do you really want to take part in something like that? And I mean not as one of the heroic defenders.

If anything, this game could use a little more darkness. We slaughter mobs all the time, and a Siege of Stormwind doesn't mean we do everything that the orcs did back then.

There's been enough tea sharing and let's just hope Blizzard will never bing out something like the ''army of the light''. That would be a real tragedy to the story. I'm thoroughly done with the WC3 model. Let the Horde continue as it is now, and let the Alliance be darker as well (scarlets would be such a fine addition).

It's not about doing what the Orcs did back then, but actually helping them to be able to do so and stand by while they commit these atrocities. It's not simply about killing these people, the Orcs did some very very nasty things. I mean things like that human sacrifices, attempted genocide, rape and the likes. Would you really like to stay by and watch these things, knowing that you helped them come to be?
I think I would either stay clear of these instances completly, or I would've to constantly run to the bathroom to throw up.

I'm not saying that you need to have the players play target practise with the kids in the Stormwind city orphanage, but one thing I've liked about CoT is that it's an oppotunity to revisist some of the darker, more 'Diablo-esque' moments of WarCrafts history.

Yes, the Siege of Stormwind was one of the darkest moments in proto-Alliance history, but so was the Culling of Stratholme; the Battle of Mount Hyjal didn't exactly go minty fresh either. But if you're worried about... stuff-that-can't-be-mentioned-on-this-forum-for-fear-of-the-banhammer... then you could always have the instance be something like strategic insertion.

Well I mentioned some of this stuff, it's in the WoW lore so why should one be banned for it? This instance would either end up white washing the old Horde and what happened back then because it wouldn't show most of the atrocities at all or it wouldn't be anything you could show in WoW in it's current form.
Let's just stay clear of it, please? We can have other things, like the battle for Blackrock.

Orcs are outside the city gates, but they can't break through (because of the Infinite Flight), so you get to climb the walls and open the gate from the inside, for example. The whole instance could play out like this. Horde keeps getting stonewalled at points, and you need to help history play out the way it did by pummeling some npc into the turf.

Yes, and then you could stay by watching the Orcs storming the city. Hear the pleas and cries of children being slaughtered, the cries and sobbing of women being dragged of by orcs and the likes.
Do you really want to take part in something like that? And I mean not as one of the heroic defenders.

Considering how in WCIII, culling Stratholme involved killing the civilians who hadn't been turned into zombies before Malganis got to them first, unlike what you see in the instance, I'd say the game has already whitewashed some rather horrific events.

19/04/2012 06:11Posted by Kurgul

Considering how in WCIII, culling Stratholme involved killing the civilians who hadn't been turned into zombies before Malganis got to them first, unlike what you see in the instance, I'd say the game has already whitewashed some rather horrific events.

You do realize that Arthas and his troops still kill civilians who're trying to flee?

19/04/2012 06:24Posted by Erìs

You do realize that Arthas and his troops still kill civilians who're trying to flee?

A total of two civilians. That's not really what you did in WCIII. There the army moved through the city, burned down homes and killed everyone running from the fire and the Scourge.

19/04/2012 06:49Posted by Requiànà

A total of two civilians. That's not really what you did in WCIII. There the army moved through the city, burned down homes and killed everyone running from the fire and the Scourge.

Actually most of the time you were chasing around Mal'ganis keeping him from reaping the infected people and disposing of them as fast as possible. And if you simply stand around you'll see that he'll kill anybody who gets close to him. And after some point there simply isn't anyone left anymore.
Still, what happened to Stormwind and the Alliance in general during Wc I-II was way worse.

Let's not forget what the Dragonmaw did to the Dragon Queen, since that is another horrific aspect of the lore. I was genuinely shocked to see the remnants of the 'good' portion of the Dragonmaw join up with the Horde, especially since what they did wasn't even touched upon, or rather it couldn't be touched upon due to the age restriction on the game itself.

Which brings me onto my next point, since WC1, WC2 and WC3, Vanilla and TBC were all created for a more mature target audience than the WoW of today. It's very apparent in the direction of quests and the gameplay in general, with grit often taking a bad seat to stuff like Budd and other gimmicks.

It's frustrating, really - a lot of stuff has seemingly been retconned or the lore team convenient forget that the Horde have been inflicting atrocities upon Azeroth for quite some time now. Neither the orcs or forsaken are 'misguided souls' - they're both fully aware of what they've been doing.

Well, the Dragonmaw even hands out first aid bands soaked in red dragon blood. So it's not completly forgotton, it's just completly ignored by everyone involved. Let's just pretend these things never happened/don't happen.
I mean afterall Thrall is still wielding Orgrim Doomhammers hammer, named his capital after him and as far as I know most Orcs still consider Doomhammer a hero.

Someone else mentioned that nowadays the horde can get away with about everything. And I think that's kind of true. Look up "Kharma Houdini" on tv tropes.