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Ok combustion combines the fire mages periodic effects already ticking plus doing some extra damage.

What i want to ask is that if it is used with an on use trink, will its effect be affected by the new spell power besides the instant? Or not, since the dots have already been set in place.

I suppose the second but would like a verification on it.

You'd want to use the 'on use' trinket to get a larger ignite prior to using combustion, so yes the second is correct.

On a side note though, I am fairly certain that the any spellpower benefits will increase the initial damage of combustion, but that is so minor it could be ignored really.

Ty for your verification Kaskie. So i suppose the best time to use the 'on use' trink would be when you have set-up a shatter for a yammie ignite.

spellpower on use trinket would not effect the combustion tick dmg, but it woulkd affect teh initial hit dmg from using combustion, however, a mastery on use trinket (moonwell chalice only real viable one that springs to mind here), would vastly increase the dmg per tick of combustion, as fires current mastery causes all DoT dmg to be increased, but teh inital dmg from combustion would be lower than if u had popped a spellpower use trinket (such as the valour point trinekt or similar), so to answer ur question, no the dot dmg of combustion wont be affected by a spellpower on use trinket, but the initial fire dmg it causes will be, but there are ways u can modify ur combustion dmg, using on use trinkets.

Thought it wouldn' t be affected by no statistic increase since they are already set up before the combustion!

If what you say is true Rógoth, i think i need to check some trinkets at wowhead or someplace:P

Actually the answer is trickier than that. Or simpler, perhaps.

The Combustion DoT doesn't benefit from spell power or mastery at all. It also doesn't benefit from any damage reducing or increasing effects. The reason is simple - its constituent DoT's already benefit from these things, so if Combustion did it too it would be double dipping.

(If your target takes double damage, you'll have a doubled Ignite because of doubled crits - Ignite also doesn't double dip - a doubled Pyroblast and a doubled Living Bomb, resulting in a doubled Combustion. If Combustion was then doubled as well it would actually be quadrupled.)

You could however also look at it like this: Combustion takes the raw (pre-mastery) damage of your DoT's, combines it and then applies your mastery. Either way you'll get the same answer, as (x+y+z)1.4 is the same as 1.4x+1.4y.1.4z, if your mastery bonus is 40%.

But spell power can still, in a way, increase the damage of your Combustion. How? If you DoT up a dummy with Living Bomb you'll notice the following: No matter how your mastery and spell power change, that Living Bomb will tick for the same value until you refresh it. But if that meant that Combustion derives the original tick amount for its damage, then popping a mastery bonus prior to Combustion would have no effect.

The reality of the matter is seemingly that when you cast Combustion, it calculates the DPS of your DoT's as though you had cast them with your present spell power and mastery. This can be easily seen by casting Living Bomb -> Combustion, and then doing it again but after gaining a little intellect between the two spells (WoU, PT).

Obviously this behavior, when it comes to Ignite, only counts for mastery, as spell power doesn't "directly" increase your Ignite damage. In PvE, Ignite is the largest contributor to your Combustion damage, but I don't know how high you can realistically get it in comparison to the other two DoT's in a PvP setting. My point is, for PvE at least it would pay off much more to "abuse" this mechanic by getting a use: mastery effect rather than a use: spell power effect.

In retrospect, I suppose I'll say the answer was trickier, but the moral of the story is really that both spell power and mastery will work for pimping up a Combustion right before you cast it, although mastery will be a better investment. Note that the best way is to have a use: spell power effect as you build the Ignite for your Combustion.

^ what Cinondra said is the truth.

Combustion takes the value of the Ignite that is on your target and uses that, so you want to make that Ignite as strong as possible.

It then also does a check to see if Living Bomb/Pyro dot is on your target (and also Frostfire Bolt, but we don't use that). If they are it works out their DPS based on your current spellpower/mastery at the point that you cast Combustion, not at the point that you put the dots in place.

In practice this LB/Pyro behaviour doesn't affect our play, as we should already be popping all +damage cooldowns to get Ignite as high as possible before we use Combustion.

So having all dots up and THEN popping a spellpower/mastery trinket before casting Combustion will, in fact, affect your Combustion dot damage?

Yeah it will. But you also have to take into account that this works in reverse too. If you lose spell power between applying your DoT's (not Ignite) and using Combustion, you'll get one weaker than expected.

Fortunately the main contributor (Ignite) isn't subject to this spell power dance, and well who has any temporary mastery effects these days anyway? It's not much of a concern this tier. For PvP it might matter.

I forgot to mention that it was for a pvp pov, my question. And thank you. I have my answer

The Combustion DoT doesn't benefit from spell power or mastery at all. It also doesn't benefit from any damage reducing or increasing effects. The reason is simple - its constituent DoT's already benefit from these things, so if Combustion did it too it would be double dipping.

As this actually makes sense tbh... i think (i'm definately gonna test it in game when i go home) its partialy wrong . Because the tooltip of combustion says that it creates a NEW dot based on the combination of current dots on the target. Mastery is increasing DoT damage, so its only reasonable that it would benefit from mastery at least.

24/04/2012 06:06Posted by Cinondra

Combustion takes the raw (pre-mastery) damage of your DoT's, combines it and then applies your mastery

If this is true then yes your previous statement is right. But where does it says clearly that combustion takes the raw damage of your DoTs? I cant find the source of this info anywhere :(

24/04/2012 13:39Posted by Marmaga

If this is true then yes your previous statement is right. But where does it says clearly that combustion takes the raw damage of your DoTs? I cant find the source of this info anywhere :(

It makes no difference how you think about it since (X+Y+Z)1.4 is the same as 1.4X+1.4Y+1.4Z. I just felt it helped illustrate what I was trying to explain about what happens when your mastery changes between applying DoT's and using Combustion.

The only thing you need to understand is that when you use Combustion your DoT's will be recalculated to a version that represents your current level of mastery (and spell power), which makes no practical difference in DS gear, but if you have Moonwell Chalice/Theralion's Mirror/Foul Gift of the Demon Lord then it's worth taking into account.

24/04/2012 13:39Posted by Marmaga

Mastery is increasing DoT damage, so its only reasonable that it would benefit from mastery at least.

I'll help you make the test short. Get Ignite on a target, note what it ticks for, combust, and you'll get a Combustion ticking for exactly half that.

I mean by your logic I could also argue that it should double dip from CoE because it's magical damage. And it should double dip from damage increasing/reducing buffs/debuffs because it's damage. It's already received its mastery bonus once =)

I fully understand what you are trying to say. I just think that by definition of the tooltip of combustion and the other dots that are being applied on the target it somehow should double dip into mastery.

Example:

Living Bomb ticks for 2.7k every 3 seconds. Total DPS 900 (mastery and spell power already added)
Ignite 3.2k every 2 seconds. Total DPS 1.6k (considering a 32k pyro crit, Mastery and SP added)
Pyro dot 1.5k every 3 seconds. Total DPS 500 (mastery and SP included)

Now based on the tooltip of the combustion spell it should be :
900 + 1.6k + 500 = 3000

So combustion will tick for 3000 every second for a total of 30k according to your sayings. Now , what i'm saying is that this 3k tick should be 3k + mastery because its a new dot seperately ticking on the target. I dont say i'm sure about it, i just need to test it first. But my logic says that if its a new dot (no matter how the dots damage has being calculated) it should calculate mastery on top of that new dot.

Thats why i said your sayings have a logic , but i need to test it myself to check it out.

Well that's a weird Ignite you generated :P (a 32k crit would be 2 ticks of 6.4 + mastery) but ok. Go ahead and test, I already gave you a suggestion for how to conclude the test quickly =)

24/04/2012 15:07Posted by Cinondra

Well that's a weird Ignite you generated :P (a 32k crit would be 2 ticks of 6.4 + mastery) but ok

Oops. You are right... calculations isnt my strong aspect anyway. My calculator did the mistake :P

So, i did the test and you are right. Combustion's tick does not calculate mastery on top of it.

I critted with pyro 30,149 and i got an ignite ticking for 8,992 and pyro dot ticking for 2,526. Both ticks includes mastery. I used combustion right after. Ofc i removed my dagger and trinket to not get confused by power torrent procs.

Lets do the above calculations:

Ignite total dps : 8,992 / 2 = 4,496
Pyro's dot total dps : 2,526 / 3 = 842

4,496 + 842 = 5,338

And yes 5,338 was the tick of my combustion.

I always thought mastery applies seperatly to combustion dot. I guess you learn every day something new.

P.S @ Cinondra: Somewhere deep inside me , i knew you where right when i read your post, i just had to see it with my own eyes. I made a mistake and i accept it :D

/cheers

pfft don't be silly. No stat should affect combustion twice.

:D D:D:D: D:

@cinondra, its all fine and well explaining about the DoT effect of combustion, but what about the initial fire dmg that it hits with upon cast?, as i have said in my post, the DoT effect may be unchanged, but the initial hit dmg from the spell would surely be changed quite significantly?

but the initial hit dmg from teh spell would surely be chan ged quite significantly?

The initial hit damage is affected by SP trinkets or SP/INT procs, and it can also be a crit hit. Ofc its not affected by mastery, because its not a dot :)

24/04/2012 23:51Posted by Rógoth

but the initial hit dmg from the spell would surely be changed quite significantly?

Yeah maybe. But it's just such a small portion of the total damage of Combustion that I didn't really pay much mind to it.

@Marmaga don't apologize, doubt is healthy :P