Topic
25-man raiding
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I also posted this in the MoP section, but posting it here too as it isn't specific to the expansion but the future of WoW in general.
The current situation of being able to get all the same gear and achievements from the much easier 10-man raids as opposed to doing 25-man is really killing off end game raiding. On my server there will soon only be one 25-man raiding guild, and I gather other servers have a similar problem.Now, don't get me wrong, I'm sure a lot of people love 10-man raids and I'm not suggesting they be done away with. For a close knit group of friends (real life or in game), they are great. However, for those of us who don't have a lot of RL friends in the game or who enjoy the more sociable aspects of a larger raid guild it just doesn't suit. I would personally find being in a 10-man raid guild very divisive. If there are two 10-man teams, there will inevitably be an A-team and a B-team. The A-team will contain the officer and veterans clique and the rest are likely to have to struggle through on their own, with all the natural leaders in the other group. As I said previously, one of the main issues with this is the gear and achievements being the same in both versions. Now, we can't go back to have different quality of gear in 10 and 25 man as was the case in wrath because we'd need 5 versions of the same tier. However, I would ask why we need a normal and heroic mode anymore.The reason for having normal and heroic mode was so that anyone who wanted to could get to see all of the content that the good people at Blizzard were creating, not just the 1% of hardcore raiders. However, with LFR people can see that content (in an easier mode) and collect the tier sets. My suggestion is not to have normal mode anymore. Just have LFR with the weakest version of the tier sets and easier mode bosses. Then have 10-man with the middle version of the tier sets. Fiinally have the most powerful versions of tier in 25-man. The difficulty of the fights in both 10 and 25 man would be the equivalent of the heroic modes we have now, but with the rolling nerf buff coming each month as is the case now so that people can still push through heroic modes if they are not uber hardcore. As I see it, this would satisfy everyone's desire to enjoy end game regardless of skill and committment with the added bonus of bringing back some larger guilds for that sense of community that us raiders enjoy just as much as casuals. |
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I prefer 25 man raiding; I simply enjoy it more.
But on the server where most of my characters are, it's not an option. Far too few people. Paying to transfer ~5 characters to a different server is sadly not possible (I'm just a lowly student). |
We re working with 2 groups but both have excactly the same progress. Last tier one group got Alys heroic and the other Baleroc heroic first. So we try to keep them balanced to avoid excactly what you are talking about and now they stand both at 5/8. Is this at the cost of progress? Yep! But this is a game, and the negatiove feelings from being in a lesser group within the same guild SHOULD be avoided. 10 and 25 is a horrible combination OP. It is torturing people since TBC when first introduced. The main issue was upsizing and downsizing smoothly. With 2 10 man groups no upsizing. You need to find few extras, that till you re rdy to upsize THEY DONT RAID. Thus they walk away. With 3 10 mans you leave people out when going for 25. And from the other side. With a steady 25, you LEAVE people out when going for a 10 man raid! Or you keep a very big roster that is benched when you do 25!! With the changes after TBC, the model is driven steadily to the current dead end. There is no turning back, cause the 10 man raiders will not accept it. There is no future for 25, cause the system is making sure to destroy some every tier, and there are very few new 25 teams to take their place. Delete 10 and 25 is the only reasonable way to solve the problem, and start fresh with a fresh raiding model! |
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I also posted this in the MoP section, but posting it here too as it isn't specific to the expansion but the future of WoW in general. Agreed. The current situation is unfair. They either need to make 10 man as challenging as 25 man. Or drop the ilevels. |
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I do not see how people find 10 easier than 25. You have more healers and dps , and thus the fight is scaled according to this (I would believe). In 10 man on unnerfed Dragon soul if a dps went down on Ultraxion for example you might as well have wiped it. Same goes for most fights. 25 Man allows for more "Slackers". I do not mean this in an insulting way , i am just saying that one of the 16 dps in the raid can perhaps do less dps while it would easily be made up by someone else.
Ok I do admit, that getting 25 players and ensuring those 25 players are decent might be harder than finding 10 competent players. Disclaimer: I have not done a 25 raid , so if any of this is wrong please point it out in a polite way, I have tried to look up differences yet only thing I find is 10 man raiders say they have harder content ,while 25 man say their content is harder... |
Ok I do admit, that getting 25 players and ensuring those 25 players are decent might be harder than finding 10 competent players. In a polite way...try an experiment. Ask around and make a 25 with another 10 man guild of similar progress just for one reset. Try all the fights that you have done so far in dragon soul and notice how different the fight is in 10 and 25. Keep an eye particularly for zonoz ultraxion and spine (in normal). Even if the fights are 100% tuned they are harder for 25 due to increased complexity (driving to chaos), and reduced pc performance. Also the fact is that with the same efford from the officers and leader, the quality of the team in 10 man(average skill per person) is infinately higher than the one of a 25 man. That makes the disparity even bigger. Overall with current system. 1) You raid faster by going 10 2) Your group can become high quality group much easier 3) Through 1 and 2 you PROGRESS faster. 4) Through 3 you are REWARDED MORE. The above simple to comprehent 4 steps, were the overkill blow to the 25s. Some people overlook this simple sequence and claim that it is fair that 10 and 25 should share everything if the fight's difficulty is the same. It is not fair, it will never be fair because 2 vastly different sizes cannot be treated as being the same. |
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Edited by Sakkie on 04/05/12 09:07 (BST)
Ok, I get what you are saying, but, looking at Wowprogress 8 of the top 10 Ds Heroic progress was done by 25's. This Might be due to the quality of the players in those 25 guilds though. 25 Raiders often say their gear rewards and ach's ect. should be of a better quality than that of 10, but then that would perhaps kill 10 Raiding. I understand the thinking behind this now, But at the end of the day , 25 Raiding or 10 raiding is a choice. The player Decides which he wants to join and thus punishing players with lower itemlevel gear is a bad idea. Ok on some realms it is not a choice as there simply arent enough players to form even 10 man pugs,let alone 25 guild raids.
However, Awarding seperate ach's like it was in the past I believe is a good idea, but once this is granted 25 Raiders would want more and more recognition for simply having the resources to do 25 man raids. |
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Edited by Feranir on 04/05/12 09:14 (BST)
I wouldn't say 25 man is inherently harder on all encounters, i'd say the difficulty of 25 man comes from the organisation and search for 25 decent players who are all of a decent skill level, the troubles I encountered in 25 mans in the past weren't from the encounters themselves but usually from a small group of players holding the rest of the raid back with their mistakes.
Edit: The discussion on the MoP forum - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3888942388 |
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Edited by Lorac on 04/05/12 10:01 (BST)
And 6 out of those 8, 25 people teams, were in top guilds during ICC and even before that :) The fact that the best of the past are still the best, should not confuse people regarding the 25 man difficulty, or the relative difficulty of that mode for us the common mortals, combared to 10.
What happened historically is quite the oposite. 10 man mode was initially created for a more casual aproach to raids by the company during TBC. The fact is that 10 people will never die in a system that offers incentives to a larger size, due to the convenience and the easyness to form a 10 man team. Thus 10 man thrived during TBC and Wrath, with systems offering as end game choices (after tier 4 in TBC), ONLY 25s (tier 5-6-6.5), or with 25s offering much better rewards (tiers 7-8-9-10). During Wrath, several people that didn't wanted to bother about doing 25s, complained about not having same loot with them. Others complained that "being forced" to run both versions of the raid twice per week (in 10 and 25) to maximize progress but also their chances to keep being part of the team. Thus it was the people that raided 10 man that asked for more! And they keep asking for more! http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3888479908 Blizzard, using the arguments that those people offered, created the most failed version of 10/25 they could come up with. A version that was created to give people "choice" without the feeling that they re "punished" for their choice, and at the same time without "having" to run the same raid 2 times, but... And i explain my statement: Virtually they offered choice to those prefering 10 to go for it but punished those that wanted to raid 25 and forced them to downsize to 10 in order to keep existing unless they are at Paragon's level. Also the shared lock deprived people from pugging one size and progressing other like in ICC. The hole situation in turn created a rift, that divided the raiding community into 2 factions. 10 man "lovers" and 25 man "lovers". Thus, at the same time, when blizzard decided to make them "equal", the advandages of the 10 man mode i mentioned in my previous post, completely unbalanced the situation, making 25s pointless! The future was so obvious that it was predicted even before the expansion started in this very same subforum! http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/900641163 Result? -I raid 10 man and i prefer 25. -Some people resenting the way things are today, don't raid at all! -25 people raid is dying not because people don't like it, but because they judge that at its current state it doesn't worth the extra efford required. |
I do not see how people find 10 easier than 25. You have more healers and dps , and thus the fight is scaled according to this (I would believe). In 10 man on unnerfed Dragon soul if a dps went down on Ultraxion for example you might as well have wiped it. Same goes for most fights. 25 Man allows for more "Slackers". I do not mean this in an insulting way , i am just saying that one of the 16 dps in the raid can perhaps do less dps while it would easily be made up by someone else. Sorry but without the nerf ultraxion hc on 10man was killed with 40sec to spare by most guilds who had cleared firelands and had 391 quality gear. While on 25man people barely made the enrages the 1st 2 weeks of the fight unless they and i'm talking about raids stacked with legendary staffs aka top guilds. The fight it selfs is complete and utter joke mechanic wise but the dps needed for 25man was twice as much as the dps needed for a 10man guild. Hence everything else you say is deemed to be incorrect. |
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I wouldn't say 25 man is inherently harder on all encounters, i'd say the difficulty of 25 man comes from the organisation and search for 25 decent players who are all of a decent skill level, the troubles I encountered in 25 mans in the past weren't from the encounters themselves but usually from a small group of players holding the rest of the raid back with their mistakes. That last part is the same in any guild. Sometimes the boss dying is purely a case of getting everyone geared enough to beat it, but most often (even the case in top of server guilds that I've been in in the past) the boss dies when everyone all does their job without errors at long last. As to the argument as to whether 25-man is inherently harder than 10-man or not, that's not really what I wanted to bang on about (just asking for a flame war). However, we've had people who've completed 8/8hc on 10-man come to try 25-man and say that it's way more difficult. I could also point to the fact that 25-man raid guilds are dying even on servers that used to easily accommodate over 20 serious 40-man guilds back in pre-TBC. It isn't because less people are playing than back then (it's actually more), it's because the majority will always go for what they perceive (rightly or wrongly) as the easiest route. On my server, in Summer 2005, there were relatively few raiding guilds. Most saw Grand Marshall's in their epics and started forming PvP guilds to get their rewards. Towards the end of 2005, most of those people were still in blues and observing PvE raiders in epic gear outnumbering the Marshalls and Grand Marshalls (can't speak for horde). Early 2006 there was an explosion in PvE raiding guilds forming. Did people just get bored with PvP? No, they realised that it wasn't such an easy path to epics as they thought and decided they'd stand a better change by raiding. |
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Edited by Ducianna on 04/05/12 12:21 (BST)
The fight it selfs is complete and utter joke mechanic wise but the dps needed for 25man was twice as much as the dps needed for a 10man guild. :))) |
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Go 10-man or just quit the game if you don't like it, 10 man have hard fights aswell, maybe not in T13, but it happens.
You obviously do 25-man because you enjoy it more and that it's harder, so why not just keep it there instead of making posts that wont make ANY difference at all. You wont change anything more than all the other whineposts out there. |
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If you believe that, why are you posting? |
Ask someone who's unbiased you'll get the response that Hagara, Warmaster & Madness were all harder this tier on 10m. That's almost half the available bosses. The difficulty with 25man is for the officers/leaders, and the reason there aren't many guilds is because people aren't willing to organise it. That isn't Blizzards fault, if there is a lack of guilds that suggests a lack of interest in the format by guild leaders. Note: not members, if you're willing to set up a 25man guild on a high populated server I have no doubt you can find members. The problem is the lack of management available to start these guilds, since they're either already in another 25man guild or simply can't be arsed with the extra hassle. |
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Your point makes sense, but how do you account for former 40/25 man guilds (who have been progressing nicely since 2005) suddenly deciding to change to the 10-man format? |
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Edited by Halaberiel on 04/05/12 13:26 (BST)
Note: not members, if you're willing to set up a 25man guild on a high populated server I have no doubt you can find members. The problem is the lack of management available to start these guilds, since they're either already in another 25man guild or simply can't be arsed with the extra hassle. A lot of leaders were happy when the change came around y'know. They've been organising 25 guilds for years, and they're tired of all the issues associated with 25man. As I said before, it's all about management. If your leaders/officers want to carry on 25man raiding, then you'll carry on. But if they're not bothered, it's only a question of time before people get irritated & switch to 10man - if you don't care about a project you're less likely to put in the hours needed for recruitment etc. I think a lot of guilds die this way, the leaders get tired, recruitment slumps, you lack people for raids, and the guild either disbands or switches to 10. I mean aside from difficulty 10man has a lot of benefits. Raids are easier to organise, and 10 people are inherently easier to manage than 25 which means raids generally go better with less mistakes. People are less likely to get frustrated because there is more individual communication between management & members, so ideas can be heard. This again fosters progress & people begin to learn more about each other. Not only is recruitment easier, but getting 10 good players is a hell of a lot easier than getting 25 good players. There is less drama outside of raids since there are less people. I think a lot of people are empathetic too. They don't care really what format they play as long as they're raiding. 10man is inherently easier for a lot of reasons (ignoring difficulty) for management so for those who don't really care it's the obvious choice. --- But I mean you already know all this anyway, but I disagree it should be up to Blizzard to incentivise the format. If people really want to play 25man, they will play 25man, there is no doubt about that. The thing is, most people don't really care, so they choose 10man instead. |
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Sorry if I sound obtuse, but what I really mean is this: why do you believe that guilds who had been happily raiding at 40 and then 25 man for 6 years suddenly all at the same time switch to 10-man? They are different leaderships in different guilds, and yet all went 10-man together (within a few months of each other at any rate). |
You mean at the start of cataclysm? That's when 10 man became viable as a competitive format. Before then it wasn't possible because you could use higher ilv loot from 25man to power through 10man faster than anyone else. So those leaders who didn't care much for the 25man format just switched at this time. As I said before, most players are apathetic so decided to switch. |
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I honestly wouldnt mind if he raiding mode went back to as it was in wrath, but however I do not want it to go back like that if the difficulity was the same as it was in wrath. 25mans were being pugged with alot of people slacking most of the time which shouldnt be the case at all.
The idea is good but how they will implement it is a different matter. What I suggest is do what the OP said but Make the 10 and 25man share the same lockout so that people who have the resources dont just spam all modes and gear up faster. |
