Topic
The Horde Council, What if?
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So after a lengthy discussion about WoW lore with a friend over Skype, we both got discussing about the recent affairs of the Horde. and I sorta did a little bit of a theory on the spot concerning Thrall's temporary replacement as to how the Horde should've been led. Because let's face it Garrosh wasn't exactly the best choice.
Ironically enough if you have read "The Sundering" I believe it states that Garrosh was Thrall's last choice as a temporary warchief. Saurfang was a good candidate but I believe due to the death and re-death of his son Dranosh Varok Saurfang became disheartened with the Horde and was too full of grief to lead. The next choice was Cairne but it was believed that the Orcs would not follow a non-orc warchief. Vol'jin same as Cairne. And so and and then the events of Cata happened and Garrosh was named warchief. But what I theorized was this. I believe in patch 3.4 a sort of mini event happened on both alliance and horde were all the racial leaders came to Stormwind/Orgrimmar to discuss the future. And what I came up with and was this. What if instead of leaving a single person in charge of the Horde, why not allow a sort of Council to be formed? Where all the Horde leaders would have equal power to govern the Horde in thrall's stead. Here's a list of the duties that would've been given to each leader. Garrosh: To rule orgrimmar as a member of the War council and to continue the war within Ashenvale. Also he would be able to have full use and control of the Kor'Kron. Cairne Bloodhoof: Would be the main peace negotiator with the Alliance because of his passive nature and he would also oversee the reconstruction of the Horde's capital's, making sure they would be better adapted to any future assaults. Also the main part of the Horde's agriculture, ie working out better ways to help the Orc's adapt the long drought that gripped Durotar at this point. Vol'Jin: would be on Garrosh's war council as Garrosh's main advisor, offering alternative methods to the war with the alliance, ie more humane tactics. Gallywix: (Should the Bilgewater goblins join the horde in this scenario) Gallywix and the Bilgewater Cartel will handle the construction of the Horde's fleet, airships and seigeweaponry. Also Gallywix would be in charge of the Horde's spending and finances. Sylvanas: Sylvanas would be allowed to have the control over her own people, in the attempt to control the Northern Eastern kingdoms. However she and her Forsaken would be put on a tight leash so that the Plague would not be used. (Much like the atomic bomb, the plague is a weapon that cannot be controlled and must be stopped of production). Lor'themar: Lor'themar and the Blood elves would assist Sylvanas in her conquest of the Northern Eastern Kingdoms, and be put in charge of the Horde's arcane assests. ie, the gathering of ancient arcane artifacts and spellbooks. Keep in mind that I basically made this theory up on the spot, so it's bound to have a few holes in there. BUT! I believe if Thrall had left the Horde leaders as part of an equal council with the right to diplomatically vote or out-vote eachother's preposals it might have made the war in Cataclysm a bit cleaner for all. So what do you think? Good idea? Bad Idea? |
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Hmmm, good idea, making there be not just focus on one Horde leader, with the rest in the background, but all of them. Off-topic: Vote Velen for Alliance leader!
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Ah, yes... the "Orcs wouldn't accept non-Orcs as leaders" arguement... the one conveniently ignoring about half of the named Orcish chieftains being Ogres, and at least one of them being half-Draenei... makes one wonder where they came up with that?
Anyways, council.... the problem with that idea isn't the idea itself, but how it reflects upon the Alliance - the Alliance are supposed to be the "civilised ones"(other than the Night Elves, anyway). What does it tell us if the Horde has a council, while the Alliance are stuck with a highlolwarkingchief? Another, more direct problem is that it is a very major change. Keep in mind that Thrall was only supposed to be gone for a short time - he was supposed to attend a meeting, and find a solution to the Cataclysm, then he would return. To completely restructure the Horde leadership to allow for just a few short months of competent leadership seems... overkill. |
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Edited by Xkun on 03/05/12 21:55 (BST)
Still as the world's greatest shaman, surely he would've forseen how the Horde would've went had he left it in the hand's of an inexperienced war-mongering pup like Garrosh. Granted no one could've predicted what happened to Cairne of Vol'jin. Hell even I didn't see it coming.
But a characteristic of Thrall's especially from WC3 always seemed to be "Better-safe-than-sorry" and I believe that had he given all the Horde leaders equal ownerships and leadership of the Horde and gave them their duties, they'd probably be able to get more things done for the better and probably avoid a few heartbreaks along the way. For example if Garrosh proposed something that any of the other leader's didn't like they would simply vote against him. Sure the Horde probably would've ended up like a Republican Rome, and spent most of the time bickering in some areas, but at least a bit more maturity and wiser decisions would've been made. Especially if Cairne or Vol'jin had a say in any of the war development. Also as it was mentioned earlier, yes this method would've meant that there would've been a lot more development for the other Horde leaders, especially Lor'themar who has literally been a shadow since TBC. Meaning that other horde races would've had a chance to get into the spotlight instead of solely pinning it on the Orcs and the Goblins. |
Ah, yes... the "Orcs wouldn't accept non-Orcs as leaders" arguement... the one conveniently ignoring about half of the named Orcish chieftains being Ogres, and at least one of them being half-Draenei... makes one wonder where they came up with that?. And yes I somewhat agree, Cairne and the Tauren in general are highly respected within the Horde. Horde soldiers are by way more powerful and devastating on the battlefield than an Orc is. Cairne would've made an excellent warchief, and if Thrall gave him his blessing the orc's would've followed Cairne without a shadow of a doubt. |
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Is that really a good idea? someone being competant with something does not make them the ideal choice to be in charge of it... Random guy:Urgh why do enchants need to be so expensive?! Enchanter: s'all about supply and demand my friend, you supply the mats and we demand whatever the hell we want because youve got no other options! Random guy:I could roll an enchanter myself Enchanter: you could but us guys in the trade have a pretty nice set up going on here, itd be a shame if some up and commer came along and tried to ruin that for us, we already spent alot of time and effort 'eliminating the competition', neither of us would want for me to have to tell the guys we missed one. Random guy: whatever, just disenchant this so that we can turn it into something useful.. *disenchanting noises* Enchanter: there ya go buddy, now just sign here and we can get down to- (ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh) Enchanter: You hear that? Random guy: hm? aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Random guy: yeah i think i do...wierd kind of sounds like its getting closer... AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHH Enchanter:kinda sounds like a-UMPH <a blood elf jumps at the enchanter and frantically searches for the shard while the enchanter tries to wriggle free> blood elf: MINE!!! |
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Edited by Xkun on 03/05/12 23:46 (BST)
Lor'themar: Lor'themar and the Blood elves would assist Sylvanas in her conquest of the Northern Eastern Kingdoms, and be put in charge of the Horde's arcane assests. ie, the gathering of ancient arcane artifacts and spellbooks. LOL! yeah I kinda see your point, like I said I kinda came up with this idea on the spot, and I'm just as stumped as Blizzard is when it comes to the Blood Elves' lore development |
Ah, yes... the "Orcs wouldn't accept non-Orcs as leaders" arguement... the one conveniently ignoring about half of the named Orcish chieftains being Ogres, and at least one of them being half-Draenei... makes one wonder where they came up with that? Because the plot demanded a conflict and Garrosh had to become warchief despite so many better candidates and good reasons on why Thrall is a moron for thinking the horde would hold together under this aggressive orc who has shown no restraint in his desire to wage war on the alliance. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConflictBall http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidNotDoTheResearch http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyJustDidntCare?from=Main.ptitleueswu2fx0swd http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IdiotPlot I kind of like the idea the horde are a bit more political, however it also borders on what the alliance should be and currently is not what with the whole high king upcoming fiasco. If the horde could be a bit more political and individual leaders had more power then great but a red council is a little bit to far. |
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Edited by Veréshya on 03/05/12 23:48 (BST)
In what way are values such as ''equality'' and ''humane tactics'' (you subscribe this to Vol'Jin) fitting for the Horde? I think your version of the Horde borders too closely to the Alliance..
I kind of like the idea the horde are a bit more political, however it also borders on what the alliance should be and currently is not what with the whole high king upcoming fiasco.My thoughts exactly. Alliance and Horde must not be too similar. |
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Edited by Xkun on 03/05/12 23:59 (BST)
Vol'jin isn't like Garrosh, he isn't war hungry, he's smart and tacticle and values honor much like Thrall did. Thrall never wanted this war with the Alliance, granted the whole history between them is tricky, and many fingers are pointed. But as a Warchief he had responsibilities, and once he settled in Durotar he didn't want anything to do with them. But the Alliance kept pushing and pushing. So in a way the alliance is partly to blame for this present conflict. Especially Humans. If Garrosh had obeyed Thrall's orders when he told him that Vol'jin and Cairne would be there to advise him in his absence, many brutal encounters could've been avoided. But no Garrosh was too bloodthirsty and held too much damn pride. Hidden by the false "I do what's best for my people" line, which we all know is rubbish.
The beautiful irony of this is that they are already somewhat similar. It is all a matter of opinion, some human noble tarts born with silver spoons up their backsides would claim the Horde are barbaric, primitive monsters. And vice versa with many Orc veterens who know just how brutal and unforgiving humans can be, what with placing them in freakin' internment camps. Not to mention as a "High King" Varien wrynne is supposed to show an example of humanity. In which case if I was a human in stormwind I'd probably end up putting on a dress and gone to learn shamanism in Nagrand. |
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No I don't think it's rubbish. Orgrimmar is thriving right now, there is food and resources. Sure, Garrosh will turn 'evil' but that's Blizzards plan for the future. The chances for that to happen would be extremely small.. |
Ah, yes... the "Orcs wouldn't accept non-Orcs as leaders" arguement... the one conveniently ignoring about half of the named Orcish chieftains being Ogres, and at least one of them being half-Draenei... makes one wonder where they came up with that? Half? Name five. |
Ah, yes... the "Orcs wouldn't accept non-Orcs as leaders" arguement... the one conveniently ignoring about half of the named Orcish chieftains being Ogres, and at least one of them being half-Draenei... makes one wonder where they came up with that? 1 is all you need to proove that orcs accept non orcs as leaders, invalidating the argument Garrosh had to be leader because Cairne and Vol'jin are not orcs. |
Leader of a clan is not the same as leading the Horde. Other than the Mok'Nathal clan, I can't think of anyone. And they're not even in Azeroth, but remain on Draenor. And no a lone wanderer like Rexxar is not a leader. What you two are saying basically is because ONE clan (nevermind the fact that every clan has their own culture) has a half Orc-Half Ogre as a leader the entire Horde would suddenly accept a non Orc? Sorry it doesn't work that way. |
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Garrosh wasn't a bad candidate for being Warchief from the start though. The problem with his leadership is that the supposed reason for him going to war with the alliance is either ignored or outright contradicted in the game and in some of the stories. I hardly saw any of the conflict between the young orcs that believe that the horde is treated badly due things their ancestors did and the old orcs that feel that they need to atone for old sins that was promised in Cataclysm, nor can I believe that the horde is going to war because they are in need of resources when it strikes me as they live in abundance. He was suppose to be the orc who stood up against the bullying the Horde was receiving from the Alliance, but without actually having shown that all that remain of Garrosh is the aggression. It strikes me as rather than trying fix their mistake, Blizzard decided to just go with what the general opinion of Garrosh and make him a bad guy. |
Yup, Garrosh is a good leader and had/has the right motivations to do what is right for his people. |
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Mogor(Laughing Skull Clan), Cho'gall(Twilight's Hammer Clan), Lantresor(the mentioned half-Draenei). And yes, non-Orcs being chieftains is plenty proof. A chieftain is the supreme leader of a large group of Orcs. A warchief is... a supreme leader of a large group of Orcs. In fact, the two terms are often used interchangibly. If a clan(several clans, in fact) are ready to bow their heads to an Ogre(who are notably dishonourable creatures), why would they not bow their heads to a Troll or Tauren? |
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Edited by Temur on 06/05/12 10:58 (BST)
Two of them are not part of the Horde anymore and the last one, consists of Ogres only, save for their leader. Again not a representative of the Horde on Azeroth. Also ONE CLAN =/= The Horde. Each clan has their own unique culture. That's like saying "5% of the population is ok with being ruled by an Ogre, that means the rest of 95% must feel the same". |
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I would love to see that happen
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This was about Orcs, not about the greater organisation of the Horde, as the rest of the Horde have no reason to object(I doubt the Tauren would be any sadder about following a Troll than they are following an Orc) [qoute]consists of Ogres only,[/QUOTE] ...crap, yeah, Lantresors clan were Ogres, my bad :( Also ONE CLAN =/= The Horde. Each clan has their own unique culture. That's like saying "5% of the population is ok with being ruled by an Ogre, that means the rest of 95% must feel the same". Two clans, out the top of my head, very likely to be more. Yes, the clans are different, but not THAT different. The Orcs look to strength and honour in their leaders - not race. That is one of their redeeming features. Are there exceptions? Probably. Still, if they got the Frostwolves to accept a leader competely devoid of wisdom, I doubt they'll have a hard time reigning in other deviants. The Horde won't let themselves be reigned in by a minority of their numbers whining. |
