World of Warcraft®

However I do remember there being distinct paths to be taken in order for one to awaken the light within themselves, Fyne, if you read this can you clarify this?

Of note, perhaps: the various WoWpedia sections which suggest styles of training for priests, paladins, etc, all are sourced to the Arthaus [White Wolf] pen-and-paper RPG. Even less canon than some other non-canon sources.

Has anyone read the entirety of Of Blood and honor?
http://www.wowpedia.org/Of_Blood_and_Honor
It seems to be the main non-in-game source for this style of story, judging by the excerpt on page two of this thread. [Edit: there used to be quite a few in-game sources as well, of course, through the differing racial priest and paladin quests; these have, of course, been removed from the game, 'though are much missed. A small selection of these can be found in the Hraling in roleplay thread, linked early on in this thread.]

16/05/2012 02:26Posted by Fyne

Admittedly, the commonality of "common" sense can vary.

Pwned.

16/05/2012 02:26Posted by Fyne

It would end up involving "midichlorians" and NO ONE would be happy.

Don't be so short-sighted. Lucas was happy. His film grossed over $1bn dollars at the box office.

A fair idea which speaks to the earlier suggestion that the Light is, in addition to anything else it might be, a school of magic. Learning to channel it through practice and through ritual might have some effect as well, even if pure following of the Three Virtues seems to fall by the wayside [mind you, tenacity is one of those three virtues, and WoW villains can certainly be tenacious].

Of course it is a school of magic, however it is a school of 'divine' magic, meaning there's that whole catch of it being learned, practiced and maintained in a much different way to what the world of Warcraft would call magic. Personally, I would like to try to try to define how one uses some form of cast in the light and see how this goes down.

A light-cast requires three things.
1: Connection to the light/the ability to generate the light.
2: The right emotion.
3: The right conviction.

So, a shield might require you to be steadfast in your emotions, maintain your state in a concentrated form whilst it would also require your conviction to stop the oncoming force or a conviction to protect someone from attack. The two slightly differing convictions produce a different effect, one produces a buckler and the other a bubble.

So the light is about being able to control the things that make you alive. Your emotions and your convictions and any change in either of those could end up creating an entirely different construct from the light. Sort of a curse of specificity. Simply wishing someone to be protected does not specify what to protect them from and so the light is marshalled into a general barrier, however conviction to stop an attack creates a far smaller, far denser barrier. Perhaps conviction that you will stop an attack hitting someone specific would result in a barrier that redirects attacks?

16/05/2012 02:26Posted by Fyne

Admittedly, the commonality of "common" sense can vary.

Quite. The nature of those little words 'common sense' is often long-winded and tiresome. It takes some time to get a hold of in certain areas as you become accustomed to them. Yet in such a trivial matter as how to dance around the Light in World of Warcraft, reaching a middle ground based on circumstances and, indeed, common sense shouldn't be such a massive challenge.

That's all it boils down to, in my opinion; the lore we have to work with is so broad and multi-sourced it's open to all sorts of interpretation and misinterpretation. Everything does, in a way, become relative and circumstantial.

There is a number of articles all Light-users should read and take inspiration from and/or adhere to depending on one's level of creativity, that goes without saying. In a collective round-'em-up kind of way they set all the basis one needs for the use of such in roleplay. I think it's about making sure that content is vaguely understood, not about saying this is exactly how you're meant to do it.

Not to mention that regardless of what is said in this thread, half of those who read it will still disagree with each other and another 90% of roleplayers won't even have read it.

I maintain my disagreement. It is akin to telling someone that the force from star wars gives you the ability to push objects but not telling you it's limits, what else it can do, how one trains to master it and how one even begins to learn how to use it and why they go about it that way whilst at the same time giving no information on how the force differs from the light to the dark side.

You appear to be waving the problem away whilst saying 'Pfft, it's fine how it is.' rather than 'Actually, I've noticed that a lot of problems crop up with the light and how people use it.'

Either you are unaware of just how widespread this problem is or you are apathetic as to it's overall fixing. You can't have one person summoning a shield only to have someone else absorb it or have priest going around with permanent shields on like it's Halo or something. I've seen people RP that glowing wings sprout from their back (Tyrael, eat your heart out.) and it's all because people can't agree on how the light works. What we're left with are RPers either RPing the way 'they' think the light works with no f•cks to give about how the rest of the realm feels about it because hey, nobody can agree; or people are so worried about being judged by others about how they use the light that they scale it down to a few shields and a heal here and there.

It's a sorry state of affairs and, frankly, I think your attitude being shared by others is one of the reasons that this problem is perpetuated.

*lies down* Phew! I needed to vent that...

I actually differ from your point of view regarding the Light. I do not think your actions has any effect on whether your pro-light or pro-shadow. Your actions are an aftermath, or consequence if you'd like. Accepting the light runs much deeper than to accept its "policy" or principles. It's an emotional and spiritual bond, which becomes a part of you and thus influencing your actions.

That's my perspective though. I'm not really a lore Junkie like many of you are.

"Lore junkie" is now my second-to-favorite term in WoW. "Firesquatters" would be the ranking favorite.

Hrmm, an interesting notion, Alison. The light is in fact a bond so deep and so pure that it becomes a part of the person themselves and actively guides their actions.

Conversely one could also argue that, if that were the case, that the light is a form of prison/brutal dictator-like forct that influences people to do it's will. Even though it is not sentient, the sheep presence of it in your body erodes the parts of you that id dispises like fear and hatred, similar to how the forgotten shadow errodes away at the posative emotions.

If that were the case then the further along the road to becoming a light-weilder you are, the less like yourself you become and paladins stand firm in the face of certain dath because they have been conditioned to do so.

Naturally, the likelyhood is that the above is false, but it bears pondering, because it could lead to spme great RP. It would, in a way, make a paladin or a priest less of a man than a non-light-weilder because they are cheating their fears.

Actually, I'd say the Light is limitless in its power, and can be used in many ways.

I always saw it as the One Power from the Wheel of Time novels (Considering the age of books, it might well be).

Just like with the One Power (I think it's actually called the Light in the Wheel of Time as well), the only limit is the power of the one channeling.

I think you're right in what you say, but it's largely a matter of consistency (unfortunately) in quality. Having spent months in the Shield of Light and roleplayed extensively with Light-users before and after that time, I can safely say that those who do not adhere to such limitations never will and those who would already do.

It's a wide-spread unwillingness to learn that stands in the way of development, because quite frankly, if that wasn't in place this thread's existence would be unnecessary. People renounce self-imposed limitations and creativity with the use of lore because they don't want it there, not because they haven't read your thread yet.

Trying to force all this into the heads of some is an impossible pursuit. I have tried for a year without success - so to me it boils down to trying to let those who do appreciate what can be worked with use it to the full extent of their ability as opposed to striving towards a guide of "This is how it's meant to be, anything else is wrong."

I think you're underestimating the intelligence and understanding of quality roleplayers out there who use the Light, and overestimating that of those who do not apparently meet your standards already.

Then again, that's just my jaded opinion. I'll just say this as a tl;dr: 90% of my roleplay in the past two years has been around Light-users, both good ones and bad ones. What I've learned is that there are some that are brilliant, but those who are not just aren't going to listen to any of this.

It's a much larger problem than just Light-users, of course. The trend of today's Argent Dawn is basically "don't listen to the haters, do what you want" - with which only naïveté and the sheer lack of a learning curve is achieved.

That's all.

16/05/2012 10:50Posted by Evand

The trend of today's Argent Dawn is basically "don't listen to the haters, do what you want" - with which only naïveté and the sheer lack of a learning curve is achieved.

You have a point in that one, however: listening to any criticism anyone might have, can lead to the opposite extreme, and that isn't good, either. I'd say to listen to (or read, as it is), what people say, but then think about it, and make your own mind about stuff.

16/05/2012 10:20Posted by Kîmberly

they are cheating their fears.

I'm not sure if that's wholly accurate. Cheating, by definition, requires malice aforethought. What you describe, however (which I don't think I agree with as a lore-accurate representation of the Light's impact on free will), would be an unforeseen consequence of devotion to the Light. If someone actively 'decided' to follow the path of the Paladin or Priest 'because it'll allow me to cheat my fears', then their disregard for the virtue of Tenacity would presumably preclude them from any noteworthy advancement.

I suppose it could just as easily be argued that as a divine power, it is capable of anything assuming the adept enough controller. The naaru appear capable of instantaneous teleportation and control over the soul of a human being, amongst other things.

Another reprise of some old, relevant information:

Q: Can you please explain how "light" works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.
A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

From Slorkuz and the development team in Ask CDev#1, 30/06/2010
http://woweuarchive.yg.com/thread.html?topicId=13816845958&sid=1

I actually differ from your point of view regarding the Light. I do not think your actions has any effect on whether your pro-light or pro-shadow. Your actions are an aftermath, or consequence if you'd like. Accepting the light runs much deeper than to accept its "policy" or principles. It's an emotional and spiritual bond, which becomes a part of you and thus influencing your actions.

That's my perspective though. I'm not really a lore Junkie like many of you are.

I agree with you, actually.

However, I'm fairly sure it's stated in the lore somewhere that the Light overall represents what is "good" and the Shadow represents what is "bad." The essence of the Light is good, and the essence of Shadow is bad. Universal positive and negative energies, generic opposite forces. Good and Evil. Which is why the mindset you need to have in order to wield the Light is entirely different than the mindset you need to have in order to wield the Shadow.

BUT what is good and what is bad (or evil) is all very relative and subjective.

Like I said before, as long as you are convinced what you do is the "right thing" and as long as you truly believe that what you do is "just" as well as believing in yourself (because you don't need to just have faith in the Light, you also need to have faith in yourself), you'll be able to wield the Light, because the Light in itself doesn't decide what would be good and what would be evil.
That's why technically speaking you could commit what in other people's eyes are atrocities (doing bad) while still having the Light by your side. Because you yourself don't believe what you do is wrong at all.

Same goes for the Shadow. The Shadow is selfish, but this doesn't mean you can only do things that are seen as evil in the eyes of others. You can do things considered good by most whilst having a completely selfish and powerhungry motivation behind these "good" actions.
Say for example, you save someone. You didn't save that person because you felt compassion and felt it was the right thing to do.. you saved that person because in saving this person, they will be gratefull to you. You will be their hero. They owe you, they're in your debt.. That's power and not compassion. That's "bad" and not "good" eventhough to others it might seem like you did "the right thing"

I think it's all about your inner motivations, really. So yes, the Light in essence represents "good" and the shadow in essence represents "evil" but this doesn't mean that you can only do "good deeds" in the eyes of others when wielding the Light, nor does it mean you can only do "evil" things in the eyes of others when wielding the Shadow.

... if that makes any sense at all :D

16/05/2012 10:36Posted by Dalrick

Actually, I'd say the Light is limitless in its power, and can be used in many ways.

It's often the case in roleplaying games that the power of magic is near-limitless, but just the caster has (usually very visible) limits.

However, looking at the big picture, different forms of magic do have their limits that are rooted in their metaphysics. The Light, for example, could never corrupt and twist living beings to becoming horrid monsters. It is against it's very nature. The Shadow, on the other hand, could never create true life on its own - although it could mutate and distort and warp already existing life.

It doesn't make it any easier that these limits are often very vaguely explained. Perhaps because they don't have to be explained for normal roleplaying purposes.

I think it's a good thing that an arguably 'religious' power is left unexplained. The whole point in it is faith, rather than knowledge, really.

I do have a question that's been bugging me for some time now... I've always RP'ed like this, but I got no real knowledge on it so it feels kinda wrong.

Can a paladin be killed by the Light?
I kinda RP they can be hurt, but not killed. But I got no idea...
I use this in other ways too... Like a shadow user can be hurt by shadow powers, but not killed. And so on and so far... I'm pretty sure I'm wrong at many places, but I wanna be hundred percent sure... Also by the way, I don't use this with physical damage, like druidic roots or anything like that... Only magical stuffs!

16/05/2012 10:36Posted by Dalrick

Actually, I'd say the Light is limitless in its power, and can be used in many ways.

Nothing is limitless except for a true god. There are no true gods in WoW as all of them have limits. The same can be said of the light. The light has limits and Waywatcher has outlined them nicely.

16/05/2012 15:12Posted by Aerandul

I think it's a good thing that an arguably 'religious' power is left unexplained. The whole point in it is faith, rather than knowledge, really.

No, it's not. Firstly, this power's not religious. Just because there is a religion based around the power does not make it a power of god. Johnny Depp was worshipped in PotC but he wasn't a figure with any religious importance past what was imposed upon him.

Secondly, even if that were the case, this is 'far' too vague. I direct you to this quote:

16/05/2012 06:57Posted by Kîmberly

It is akin to telling someone that the force from star wars gives you the ability to push objects but not telling you it's limits, what else it can do, how one trains to master it and how one even begins to learn how to use it and why they go about it that way whilst at the same time giving no information on how the force differs from the light to the dark side.

Fyne, again you are a wellspring of wisdom, however I wonder if you notice two points that invalidate that quote?

1stly is that they are clearly witholding vital information which is likely why the second point makes so little sense.

2ndly, why can the broken not use the light if they previously had the willpower and conviction to do so? It is not explained there. It might be explained elsewhere but it slips my mind.

@Phorth, this is all merely speculation so the idea, even though it is likely wrong, is interesting to expand upon.

16/05/2012 10:50Posted by Evand

I think you're right in what you say, but it's largely a matter of consistency (unfortunately) in quality. Having spent months in the Shield of Light and roleplayed extensively with Light-users before and after that time, I can safely say that those who do not adhere to such limitations never will and those who would already do.

Again, you are half right and half wrong because you've missed three key points.

1: You split people into two when there are actually 4 kinds of people.
1a: The third kind are the people who are simply unaware of these things. The people who think they're in the right but will capitulate if you can persuade them. There are also people out there in this catagory who simply do not know any better than what they do because the people who are doing it right are normally very jaded and do not offer their aid, as you seem to be stricken with.
1b: Newbies coming into WoW are similar to the group above but their RP experience is normally a blank slate to be drawn upon. Usually these are the people who are the easiest to convince.

So there are more people out there than the dos and the don'ts.

2: The people you say already do this are not united by one common rule of light RP. This one is not the right one as the forum is still helping me develop it, but once it is comprehensive enough and easy enough to grasp whilst also allowing for a wealth of variety in RP both in practice and in theory, 'then' we might be on the right track.

3: Nothing is impossible. It just hasn't been done yet.

Can a paladin be killed by the Light?
I kinda RP they can be hurt, but not killed. But I got no idea...
I use this in other ways too... Like a shadow user can be hurt by shadow powers, but not killed. And so on and so far... I'm pretty sure I'm wrong at many places, but I wanna be hundred percent sure... Also by the way, I don't use this with physical damage, like druidic roots or anything like that... Only magical stuffs!

It depends on the model of the light you abide by. If you abide by this one then that's a yes, but only by someone vastly superior in the light to them. Until we can come together and decide on a set of rules that people can follow without fear of retribution from others, there can be no right or wrong answer to that question.

Now you see why I am doing this? The inconsistency and the unsureness is just unbearable. I think everyone has by now noticed how much I enjoy setting rules around the foundations of a subject and then allowing it to flow freely outwards from them but I think that the absence of clarity by blizzard on this topic affects me more than most.

I have tried contacting you in game, Kimberley. Please whisper Anduin when I'm next online on him (changed from Greywatch).