World of Warcraft®

All the issues you point out assume you are playing.
I've been queueing for Battlegrounds multiple HOURS now and still cant enter.

FIX THAT before fix anything else.

How?
kill battlegroups, everybody of the same bracket in ONE queue

Could you give some details Judy like level, time of day, server, ...
From my personal experience there are always battlegrounds going at low levels in pretty much every bracket. Unless you locked xp of course, in which case there are only a few twinking brackets which are active.

I have to say sometimes you can do well without heirlooms, if you go for the relatively cheap enchants and an overpowered spec. I paid for everything this guy has on him with what I made of herbalism (level 60) and skinning (level 50).

That doesn't change the fact the maxed out rogues still one-shot me, good hunters (say 10-15% of the population) can kill me in seconds and twinked warriors, priests, mages, ... crit constantly for over 50% of my hp.

Yes I can participate and due to being a healer be the MVP in a lot of games, but when you encounter fully loomed fully enchanted fully buffed people nobody else stands a chance. God mode doesn't belong in a multiplayer game, it belongs in Quake 1.

Now some say twinks would be hurt, that's a really poor argument. A twink tries to min-max everything compared to the other twinks. If say enchants would be given a minimum level all twinks would loose them and the playing field would thus still be even.

The only people who'd hate enchants being removed would be the ones that want an advantage over non-twinks based around the amount of gold they put in. I say that's a really poor excuse.

Now some say twinks would be hurt, that's a really poor argument. A twink tries to min-max everything compared to the other twinks. If say enchants would be given a minimum level all twinks would loose them and the playing field would thus still be even.

The only people who'd hate enchants being removed would be the ones that want an advantage over non-twinks based around the amount of gold they put in. I say that's a really poor excuse.

Well really be realistic and think a little wider. If they remove enchants there would be lesser ways to min-max gear, you simply say take the twinking part out. Then there is no need anymore for twinking and the xp-off brackets blizzard made. You simply make everyone the same. It would take away/destroy this whole playing style and people will make recycle twinks due to having more games xp-on then xp-locked (because everyone is the same). Also looking at the twinking scene these days and due to high burst alot people twinking in a stamina way to balance burst/damage/health even more. And you want to take that all out wich only newbs would suggest because of their hate towards and the generalisation of twinks as a whole because of xp-on battlerounds?? where twinks dont belong in?? Seriously.

As you can see in in my first post I do say class balance and burst/damage/health has to be addressed, but that's simply impossible without having some balance in gear. At the moment the difference between badly geared and well geared is like 200-1200 hp in the 10-14 bracket. Same goes with damage an ambush from a green geared rogue is like 3-6 times lower than that of a heirloomed/enchanted rogue.

Do you think anything can change to balance with this gap? If the gear balance (mainly hp) is fixed to some extent, they can decide what a decent level of burst/dps is at low levels. At the moment there is no objective way of saying what is and what isn't overpowered. So what I'm saying is this change to enchants is part of the bigger solution and not something you should single out.

As for destroying the twink play style, I don't see how this would change anything. Like you say yourself there are two seperate type of battlegrounds xp-on, xp-off. The reason you play in xp-off is to min-max and battle against others that are maxed out without having to level. The difference between you and non-twinked players is irrelevant. If you wanted to dominate you wouldn't be a twink, you'd be a recycle twink or heirloom hero (which there are loads of, sometimes me I hate to say).

Enchants are just a (huge) stat boost everyone has; remove it from all and twinks will still min-max in every way possible from the stv trinkets to engineering stuff while not being faced with the white geared "nubs". The xp-off battlegrounds will still hold only experienced players that also aim to do their best every way possible.

If you say the seperation between the two bg's should be gone if the gap is so much smaller, well that's a totally different discussion which I wouldn't mind having. But then you'd loose the few things the seperation has gained the community.

Think you better make a distinction between:
- regular twinks (in xp-off)
- heirloom twinks (xp-on)

The solution is making a new system (with more difference in players). Not just like the ones who level and the ones who lock xp and stay at the desired level (cheap solution anyway). We can all argree to the fact that blizzard failed with their first fix to try and split twinks and non twinks. Its time to do it properly and remove twinks from xp-on battlegrounds completely without changing the known twink ways and simply dont allow twinking in xp-on when it comes to applying enchants etc to gear. The ones who do should be placed automaticly in the xp-off battlegrounds (with their xp on) wich should change to a veteran battleground or something with the twinks of old with their xp lock in it and everyone else who want to semi twink (including loom and enchant use wich creates that huge 200-1200hp difference in 10-14) and level. Xp-on has to be for casual players with the twinkers in a seperate system like it should.

After all this you can look if there is some sort of change needed because most of the QQ-balance is based on levelers vs semi-twinkers in xp-on. Removing enchants before this is going to fast and you will be skipping steps wich you should take when you are looking for (better) balance first.

(nvm post below, pressed quote instead of edit)

27/05/2012 20:26Posted by Leotseddap

We can all argree to the fact that blizzard failed with their first fix to try and split twinks and non twinks.

Ye it was only good for the farming twink scubs. They got it easy now, only scrub twinks in xp-bg's.

You gotta take the pain in the butt now ;-)

Well Leotseddap here we hit the problem Blizzard has: There is no perfect solution, there will be a million ideas how to fix it based on your own opinions and experience. So why I proposed the above instead of the more complex solutions you suggest is developping time.

Everything in the OP has been done before in some way or another, so it wouldn't take Blizzard more effort than a half day's work for an intern ... which might already be asking much seeing how Blizzard ignored low level PVP until now.

As for your suggestion how would it work?
Is one heirloom enough to get kicked into the veteran bg's?
Is one enchant enough to get to the veteran bg's?

Let's give an extreme example someone takes up enchanting while levelling and puts +5 health on his bracers, should he be put in the veteran bg? Even a heirloom hero who isn't enchanted doesn't really belong in the veteran bg's with twinks that will still have more than double his hp/damage.

Should the system also scan your bags/bank and detect what you can wear? I don't think Blizzard has made this system yet. You could go as far as working with invisible item levels on certain enchants/heirlooms that combine to a minimum that would put you in veteran bg's. Of course recycle twinks will find a way around that and the amount of time needed will be ... well more than Blizzard wants to put in anyway.

There is the perfect solution and the realistic one. I'm aiming for the realistic one, but if Blizzard gives they slightest signal they want to go further I don't mind working out the perfect one.

Heads stats except +% exp gain should be activated at lvl 25.

Shoulders should be activated at lvl 20.

+100 HP should be actived at lvl 25.

As for your suggestion how would it work?
Is one heirloom enough to get kicked into the veteran bg's?
Is one enchant enough to get to the veteran bg's?

If i worked at blizzard and earned some big $$ i would think about this but you could basicly say that there is no twinking allowed in normals bg's. If anyone wants to twink (including heirlooms; because the state compared to normal gear, specially weapons, is pretty bad atm) would be placed in the veteran battleground. Level apropriate enchants should be allowed because its normal progression of toons and are allready level restricted. It might cause problems if you want to split toon progression enchants and sugardaddy enchants but im sure blizzard can work that out.

Blizzard has allready some sort of check the players bag and what not option so it wont be hard to make some sort of system that checks it when you queue for a battleground and places you automaticly in the right battleground like ilevel does for dungeons.

Ilevel sounds like the best solutions tho but heirlooms dont have an ilevel other then level 1. If blizzard manages to give heirlooms ilevel then battlegrounds should be split by that wich means blizzard should give some sort of ilevel points (or something else then ilevel) to enchants too. But i dont see this happen.

Infact i dont expect any change at all, blizzard doesnt care. They even throwing more oil on the fire with mop. They rather deliver an unfinished game these days and they could give everyone a free level 85 because they dont care about lower levels.

I'm posting because I thought it might help you understand why you are wasting your time.
You've obviously spent some time thinking about it and trying to come up with solutions.
I just hate to see people banging their heads against a wall.

I'm just telling you, you are wasting your time if you think that Bliz will take any notice at all. Decisions about game content and mechanics are made by qualified, professional people with years of experience. They don't take 'advice' from customers any more than a shepherd takes advice from his sheep.
They would never say as much of course. And that's why you will NEVER see a blue response.

(I don't mind bumping your thread. As I said, it makes no difference)

I guess you were wrong.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1690529101

Well expecting Blizzard to put effort into this is perhaps aiming a little high. I'm still not convinced how removing enchants harms anybody. There are only a few enchants which do more than a straight stat boost like crusader, fiery weapon and unholy weapon. If the classes that rely on those enchants struggle at low level PVP, they could be given an important ability earlier on (secretly hopes for wings for pallies :D)

So I still stand by it that twinks will not be harmed in any way, they'll have plenty of ways to differentiate. Just buying enchants will be less important which I'd think would make twinks happy. Oh and enchants in low level PVE are completely over the top, on my prot paladin I just solo all low level dungens and the rest of the party is along for the ride.

I do understand you'd like more people in the xp-off/veteran battlegrounds since queue times probably suck at the moment. I suggest if the gap can be made less ridiculous they'd be allowed in xp-on battlegrounds when there are no xp-off ones going on (like after 5-10 minutes wait time you'll automatically be added to xp-on queues). Best of both worlds? Always bg's, but when possible only with other twinks.

28/05/2012 17:06Posted by Sontaran

There are only a few enchants which do more than a straight stat boost like crusader, fiery weapon and unholy weapon

Crusader is 90g, that's 2 stacks of copper, fiery is even cheaper. If you don't know that, you are a newbie that puts spirit gear on his hunter. You would get massacred in pvp anyway.

The only real solution is giving everyone the same gear and the same level (in the bracket), but we all know that isn't going to happen.

How does your insult relate to the quote Shazay? Anyway on this paladin I hardly get massacred (apart from the recycle twinked hunters/rogues) and I get lots of love of my team mates for being pretty much the only decent healer they encounter at low levels.

Anyway of course real balance is never going to happen. The gap that exists now between enchanted heirlooms that require no effort (like you say yourself, enchants are dirt cheap) and newbies/rerollers is ridiculous however and should be changed. There isn't a single person (that isn't trolling/lying/insane) who'd say the current state of low level PVP is acceptable.

28/05/2012 18:39Posted by Sontaran

How does your insult relate to the quote Shazay?

What insult? I was not referring to you ofc, just saying that newbies don't stand a chance in pvp.

It's just what it is now, 90% of the players got high level toons, making tons of gold that they can throw away in whatever way they want. Hell you don't even need a high level toon, some time ago I made fresh toon from scratch, at the end of the day I was level 16 and got 500g from selling copper and herbs. That's enough to make a semi-twink.

I mean any player with some experience can get those enchants if he does some effort. I don't think it's a good idea for newbies to do pvp unless they know something about the game and if they do they will have tons of gold to spend on enchants.

I agree new players shouldn't be thrown into battlegrounds without any form of preparation. It could be solved in a few ways, the best would be an in-game tutorial. An instanced quest (at battlemasters, let's make them useful again) for example that has to be completed before you can enter a bg that gives you the basics you need to compete.

For Warsong Gulch for example you'd have to check both flag spots, get a huge message that shows the mini-map, party frame, score and which team(s) have the flag at the moment. Then you'd have to go get the opposite team's flag to your flagroom once and return your flag once from some NPC that moves slowly and is shown on the minimap. Seeing as they make hundreds of quests each expansion a few could be done for bg's.

Your point that you'd need enchants to compete just seems wrong. For starters not every realm has enchants on the AH, some are really dead and ask over 1k for crusader (no kidding, best offer I've seen so far) or don't have any for some slots. Paying for enchants every 5 levels will also quickly add up and low level herbs/ores/leather don't sell that well on all realms. I don't believe enchants add anything but an 'unfair' advantage which like you say is necessary to be able to compete. Just giving them a minimum level that's more appropriate to their benefits seems the logical solution.

The main, if not only, reason people have to worry about Enchants in XP-On Battlegrounds is the allowance of Enchantable Heirlooms in regular BG's, the more because the BG queues are region-wide now and so you will encounter the whole gamut of 'chant availability.

If they'd take out Heirlooms in the equation by making them unEnchantable (for starters), they'd basically solve the percieved Enchantment issue.

However, just removing Enchantments will still leave the serious Gear-gap between Heirlooms and regular levellers, and make it even worse in case of the iLevel 35+ Gear brackets (the 'compensation' of non-Heirloom Gear being worse by using stronger Enchants would be gone if chants would be disallowed).

As the system can apparently already detect wether a toon has Heirlooms on it or in its mailbox/bank (you won't be able to Delete such a toon), using that same system to put those toons into the XP-Off/'Veteran' BG queues would be a simple and good measure.

''But an Heirloomed toon =/= automaticaly a Twink!''

But an Heirloomed toon is in a much better position to make up those last % of Twinkage than newcomers/regular levellers are now.

And besides, heirlooms are to level ASAP, and BG's aren't the way to level ASAP, so such a measure wouldn't hurt the primary function of Heirlooms.

Low level hunters are a joke. I rolled one for fun this weekend and just wrecked bgs.

Get some looms, buy some boe from ah and cheap enchants. It took me about an hour to get to level 14 and visit the auction house.

First bg ever as a hunter I was 45-6 ...