Topic ilvl 403 Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps as a tanking wea
Fellow Knight of the Ebon hold,
I am very unlucky DK and never seen Yorsaj axe dropped. ATM I am using ilvl 403 Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps as a tank weap. Yesterday I was told that even ilvl 378 Pit lor'ds destroyer ( Mace from Well of ethernity last boss) is better for tanking than Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps cause it has mastery as a stat.
Encaurage me and tell me that that's not true.
I think - yes, ,mastery is good but more dps. str, stam is kinda good as well.
let's see the difference LOL
pit lord => gurth
2142 - 3215 Damage => 2704 - 4058 Damage
(744.1 damage per second) => (939.2 damage per second)
+406 Strength => +514 Strength
+611 Stamina => +772 Stamina
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 265 (8.83 @ L85).
Equip: Increases your mastery rating by 276 (1.54 @ L85).
Equip: Your melee attacks have a chance to cause you to summon a Tentacle of the Old Ones to fight by your side for 12 sec.
it's like screaming "upgrade" ahahaha i think that whoever told you that doesn't know the basic math =)
1) as a tank expertise is not a must
2) 161 stam gives you 16,1k more health that will combo with many of your self heals, vengeance.
3) 108 strength lol will help a lot with your DPS
4) weapon damage: DS (150%) and HT(175%) use it so it will reeeeally increase dps
276 mastery rating WILL NEVER be better than those... LOL
Edited by Sayaki on 29/06/12 09:40 (BST)
let's see the difference LOL
Clueless person, 276 mastery > 161 stam and a bit of DPS (dps does not matter as a tank)
Maximum health only effects the minimum your death strike heals, only increased things are death pact and rune tap, death pact will be increased by about 300 and 700 respectively, hardly worth losing around 6% off each blood shield for
Also, 161 stam does not equal 16.1k health, 1 point of stamina is not 100 health, 1 point of stamina is about 20 health which equates to about 3220 hp
It seems you're the one who does not know basic math
A tanks job is to stay alive, Pit Lord's Destroyer > Gurthalak in every single way for that.
let's see the difference LOL
Mega facepalm... Why DK as tank should get bigger DPS? In raid you should have your good pack of DPSes, so you even don't bother yourself about DPS just about survavibility and avoidance. And if you want more DPS for dungeon runs you are most clueless person I have ever seen... Even without running for DPS stuff etc. I am almost always doing highest DPS in RDF.
Edited by Azriyel on 29/06/12 11:28 (BST)
No it wouldn't be better.
1. Heroic gurthalak is even better than normal Specimen slicer, when you have high enough mastery (i.e. full heroic gear) and when bosses hit like wet noodles. As bosses do not hit hard enough for yout to make high mastery efficient any more and there is, whatever your best bud and forums trolls say - slight d/r on DK mastery.
2. Love those facepalming guys talking as if they have done any math.
3. Before some trolls start the same old - stamina-trollol-talk, then go read about how vengeance, mastery and death strike actually work.
4. And DPS starts mattering for tanks soon they have achieved avoidance and e.HP. and do raid with better geared firemages and rogues.
5. I kindly recommend sometimes read more than 1st page of random guide and every now and then use your brain and think. Not all is black and white and not all is summed down to mastery über alles. So YES HC gurthalak would be better than 378 weapon IF (and alone), when you do have above 4200 mastery and are capable to keep up blood shields up properly. Since from 15-20% nerf DS bosses do not hit hard enough to even make that good use of your high mastery. Your shields start 'sit iddle' hence it is good either tank in dps gear to dps things or just use few items here there.
edit : although on case of OP, we could argue how much difference 500 mastery makes in my theory, then with 30% nerf that comes next reset, he could as well use tooth pick and it wouldn't matter. And on normal and LFR already 4000 mastery is not even as efficient anymore as it was.
Blizzard official forums...
While I value your opinion, Azriyel, could you be bothered to explain your statement a little bit further?
I personally - while not a raider - got the impression (mostly from reading) that DPS mattered for a tank especially in Heroic DS (most notably Spine and Madness, maybe Yor'sahj to add in bringing down the slime) when every bit of damage is needed (not sure about current state in HC though with a working group).
Also, when threat starts to get an issue again, which I think you were referring to when you mentioned rogues and fire mages..
that about correct?
I apologise for my previous post sound a bit aggressive. Did not mean to sound patronising. I just got tipped off people being so resolute of one way of thinking. Every item and gear set up, raid and player is different and so regardless of guides (or what I say) every player should take some personal investigations.
Now for DPS, there are fights where it did and some extend still does matter how much damage tank does. Originally such fights were Ultraxion, Spine, madness and so on. But since nerfs it matters less. I for example use tank gear on Ultraxion since we still can do it in ~3 minutes and better play safe and make it easier for the sole healer.
On one fight, where I focus on my blood dps are tendons and .. whats they called *snaps fingers* They had silly name .. congealing bloods. That. I do not even know what congealing means, but anyway ...
I feel that tanks dps does matter, as yesterday we failed killing burning tendon at once because it had low HP left. Now what happened, was that I did not have runic power for dancing at once and didnt taunt blood for vengeance. While not needed to think of dps as tank anymore, there are situations where tank dps can notably help.
ahahahahhahahah lol yes I've made a mistake there LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
16,1k is wrong =)
anyway sayaki =) the math was right but with the wrong parameters ^^.
but I do think that Tank DPS is good (surely not essential).
A mage doing 40k DPS would sell his arm to get to 41K.
So if the tank can easly get that 1k plus dps with no effort and w/o loosing so much survivability I think he should do it.
The higher the overall raid DPS the lower the fight will last, lesser hits will be landed on tanks and lesser mana will be spent on heals.
It's just a different strategy.
just keep in mind the "w/o loosing so much survivability I think he should do it." and you should be fine
The question OP asked is whether it was a better tank weapon, for that alone (i.e survivability) the mace is much better than gurthalak.
Gurthalak may have situational uses but overall the mace is much better for the job of "tanking"
Don't misunderstand me, you can't go wrong with more damage, even I tank dragon soul in my DPS gear nowadays but if you're looking for the best "tank weapon" then it would be the pit lord destroyer
Gurthalak has it's situational uses, e.g when you're taking so little damage from bosses that you might as well stack gear to do more damage, or when you need that tiny push to get over enrage, but that doesn't make it a better tanking weapon then the destroyer, it just makes it good when everything is going so smoothly that you don't need tanking gear.
If this was 0% and I was progressing on HC /w good dps I'd take the destroyer over normal gurthalak on pretty much every boss. Most of them have a point where you want to be taking as little physical damage as possible from a progress PoV because back when everyone was in 391 firelands/lfr mixture gear it was quite hard to keep the whole raid up with AoE heals unlike now where every healer never goes oom, so you needed to save as much mana as possible
Oh yes, sayaki, of course. I do not argue that at all. Just trying to encourage people to think and see what is behind the stat's like mastery, stamina and so on. With 0%, when i would have Gurthalak and pitlord, it means I'd likely also have THAT much lower mastery combined with THAT much lower survivability, then mastery would be my main stat. In my opinion there are certain steps and levels, when one has to revise and re-evaluate situation instead the claim to what i responded 1st that "hc gurthalak would be worse than 378 weapon".
And there IS actual level of stamina vs mastery, where stamina becomes better tanking stat (aka providing bigger blood shields) and that is why when hc Gurthalak would likely always be better tanking weapon than 378 pitlords. but notice my "likely" and not definite "is". Because I do not know all the x and y's on equation of player wieliding it. :)
Long story short - Azriyel encourages people to look behind the stats and look into the mechanics instead the mantra of "only one stat matters" :)
This time I completely agree with you :p
Personally I feel that mastery has no worth for me over about 4500, then I'd start stacking either stamina or DPS compared to boss, I think this varies from person to person but everyone should aim for between 4000-5000, any less means you will actually start to take some real damage even as nerfed as dragon soul is now!
Also, I have transferred to outland horde! but my armory hasn't updated it yet :(
Edited by Shaguar on 01/07/12 00:30 (BST)
my 2 cents (didnt read all the answers)
if youre still progressing (which i see you are) stick with the pit lords destroyer. on faceroll bosses (all of normal ds?) go with the gurthalak so youll get out a bit more dps.
i myself used the pit lords destoyer till 2/8 hc or somesuch when my ESS finally dropped. Also as a tank i like expertise (once u got enough mastery) because more than strength and stuff. its the hit rating and expertise that really help you pull out the extra damage thanks to vengeance.
my personal goal was to hit 30 mastery which i did and now have started stacking stam. depending on how comfortable i feel when i finally reach heroic deathwing. i may go outta stam and into more hit and expertise.
edit - before anyone says anything about me not being enchanted and stuff - this is my "loremaster" gear. i use it and frost spec since its faster doing quests (howling blast ftw) my actual tank gear is much better taken care of
This time I completely agree with you :p
*nodnod* I actually went to test it, which I have mentioned. It was few 'nerfs' back on hagara. What happened was that both healers got iceblocked and I had to manage on my own.
This gave me an idea to try out the theory, where "mastery has no DR or efficiency cap". I got myself decent 5600-ish mastery. Took a good moment in fight where raid was ok, and said : No heal on next assault. And analysis showed that even with my 'spiking' technique (that means bigger self heals), with my well planned non-heal focused assaults. The results were notably worse on logs compared to the 'balanced' set up. And further personal investigations (numbers, muchos numbers!) made me believe that in current tier (Dragonsoul) value between 4200 - 4600 is working out best. This is worked out for me having buffs like priest, druid, paladin (armor, Mow, stamina) and on 5-10% nerf (as this is where I started tanking and raiding dragonsoul proper)
By now I've come to unedrstand that less damage boss does, less efficiently I 'abuse' my shield (note I speak here of myself, maybe 99% of other dks have no such problem!) hence it is better for me to take more damage to gain same shield and heal efficiency as 10% nerf back.
And at the end we actually place same mastery range we believe should be optimal. Your 4000 to 4500 and my 4200-4600. And I would and still do not recommend people think of stamina before 4k mastery. And before MoP, I personally am not going to do any 5600 mastery experiments anymore. But in MoP new game and new theory time !
T13 bis blood dk weps.
Yor normal axe
Warmaster hc axe
Rag HC mace is better then Yor normal axe , lets clear that up first, fair reason , 2 socket slots.
Yor hc axe.
im scaling this on my own build wich is a stamina mastery balance, 250k hp unbuffed and 30.18 mastery unbuffed.