we consume content too fast?

85 Human Hunter
4520
09/07/2012 13:09Posted by Jito
But the idea of exclusivity doesn't work. The mentality it originates just doesn't fit with a game like WoW. It requires that some players don't get certain things in order for others to appear more special by having them. And that doesn't work, because that means some players need to be inferior for others to be superior. And in a game like WoW where everyone strives to be unique and special, it's pretty detrimental to the player experience if the game basically says "You're not special, and you're not unique, and you're not cool, because you're not good enough. Look at the guy next to you. He's cool. He's awesome. He's got things you won't ever get, because you're not as good as you need to be.".


There are lots of ways to get special titles, mounts, pets, gear - questing, 5-man dungeons, pvp, the Blizzard store (lol) and, yes, raiding. But raiding is only one. You can feel special in this game without killing heroic raidbosses.

09/07/2012 14:26Posted by Jito
But the way it is today is that way because the difficulties are linked together in terms of progression.


Again, this is a financial decision. Blizzard gives us Dragonsoul with 8 raidbosses and calls it 24 bosses worth of content. It's downright cheap and insulting to the players.
MVP
90 Gnome Priest
18810
09/07/2012 14:50Posted by Pedqchovek
Also Jito - if you want to save the last credibility you've got as a COMMUNITY MVP I advise you to stop posting in this thread. You are contributing nothing to the discussion to the point where people are placing you on "ignore".

My credibility – like everyone else's – lies in the reasoning and logic of my words. It does not lie in whether people find my opinions likeable or not. That is out of my realm of control.
As far as not contributing to the topic, then I disagree. I've made ~50 posts in this thread, which accounts for ~17% of the entire thread. If people put me on ignore because they don't like reading what I write, then good, that's what the ignore button is there for. I will however not stop posting because of that, as I don't find that I disrupt the discussion, but rather that some poeple just don't like hearing what I have to say. But as said, that's out of my realm of control, and people are of course allowed to use the ignore button if they so desire. But their choice to do so does not affect whether I choose to post or not. Sorry.

09/07/2012 14:50Posted by Pedqchovek
Save some face, man. People have little to no love for MVP's as it is. Your posts are just feeding the stereotype and distrust.

Hopefully people can seperate their opinions about me from their opinions about the other MVPs. I'd be sad if you were to dislike the other MVPs simply because you dislike me. But again, that is out of my realm of control to decide. You will have to make your mind up yourself.
However, as far as myself goes, then I'm not here to be liked. Saving face is not important. Sharing viewpoints with other people is.

09/07/2012 14:53Posted by Monkylord
Look at the Mists database, there are only 2 unique and cool mounts: Quilean from Collector's edition and Heart of the Nightwing from RAF promotion. Both are awarded for making more money for blizzard.

There are some other ones. Especially the Kwai-Lan mount for having obtained all the gold medals should be pretty unique and very difficult to obtain.
I'm sure the dungeons and raids will contain specials mounts as well, as they already do in Cataclysm.

Cory Stockton (developer) talked a little bit about the uniqueness of mounts in Mists of Pandaria a while ago as well. You can see it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtEsFzry5yc&feature=player_detailpage#t=969s

Personally I'm not so worried about this. To me the selection of mounts in Mists of Pandaria looks pretty amazing. Definitly getting myself one of the Shado-Pan Tiger mounts...probably the blue one. It looks amazing :P
90 Human Warlock
14095
09/07/2012 14:26Posted by Niënni
those who didn't make it in that time, well tough, just accept you weren't good enough this time around.


You seem to indicate that player skill is based on how many nights a week you can spend raiding when new content comes out. Hardcore players don't have to raid 5 nights to be 'hardcore' or to be good, or to be capable of clearing hardmodes unnerfed. They also don't have to yell at people in order to kill stuff. It's also not about being able to claim parity, but being robbed of the chance to do the content the way it was intended to be done.

And lol @ 'few hundred' you're just making that up and I think it shows lack of realism.

You're not robbed of that chance though are you? You can disengage the nerf. Should that be recognised through an achievement? Maybe. If there were a raid challenge mode that uses the new itemisation scaling technology then for sure. That doesn't exist right now, so any such achievement is actually devaluing the achievement of those who went before with lesser gear and worked out how to beat the fights for you: Those are the guys who truly deserve recognition, and they get it without the need to show off shinies.

And yeah, only a few hundred do make it through pre-nerf.
90 Dwarf Shaman
12240
09/07/2012 15:25Posted by Mirasu
But the idea of exclusivity doesn't work. The mentality it originates just doesn't fit with a game like WoW. It requires that some players don't get certain things in order for others to appear more special by having them. And that doesn't work, because that means some players need to be inferior for others to be superior. And in a game like WoW where everyone strives to be unique and special, it's pretty detrimental to the player experience if the game basically says "You're not special, and you're not unique, and you're not cool, because you're not good enough. Look at the guy next to you. He's cool. He's awesome. He's got things you won't ever get, because you're not as good as you need to be.".


There are lots of ways to get special titles, mounts, pets, gear - questing, 5-man dungeons, pvp, the Blizzard store (lol) and, yes, raiding. But raiding is only one. You can feel special in this game without killing heroic raidbosses.

But the way it is today is that way because the difficulties are linked together in terms of progression.


Again, this is a financial decision. Blizzard gives us Dragonsoul with 8 raidbosses and calls it 24 bosses worth of content. It's downright cheap and insulting to the players.


The fact that difficulties are linked in a certain way at this point doesn't mean it can't change. It has changed in the past... It's not set in stone and again Jito is defending the current Blizz policy, which isn't helping the discussion which is about whether we consume content too fast and how it can be CHANGED. We already know the current state of the game and we see room for improvement.

For instance, I think we wouldn't have had this discussion if normal mode had been 10-15% more difficult and if the nerfs to heroic mode (which I am not totally against as posted before) would start later or be less big. For instance, wait 4 months instead of 2. Start nerfing normal after 2 months for all I care. Do it by 10% per month for all I care. But give hc modes a smaller nerf and if you do want to start nerfing it after 2 months perhaps nerf it with 2,5% with a monthly increase of 2,5% but even better would be tuning certain abilities, like we have seen many many times in the past. Maybe I just miss reading pages of patch notes to see what changed...)
90 Dwarf Shaman
12240
09/07/2012 15:34Posted by Jessicka


You seem to indicate that player skill is based on how many nights a week you can spend raiding when new content comes out. Hardcore players don't have to raid 5 nights to be 'hardcore' or to be good, or to be capable of clearing hardmodes unnerfed. They also don't have to yell at people in order to kill stuff. It's also not about being able to claim parity, but being robbed of the chance to do the content the way it was intended to be done.

And lol @ 'few hundred' you're just making that up and I think it shows lack of realism.

You're not robbed of that chance though are you? You can disengage the nerf. Should that be recognised through an achievement? Maybe. If there were a raid challenge mode that uses the new itemisation scaling technology then for sure. That doesn't exist right now, so any such achievement is actually devaluing the achievement of those who went before with lesser gear and worked out how to beat the fights for you: Those are the guys who truly deserve recognition, and they get it without the need to show off shinies.

And yeah, only a few hundred do make it through pre-nerf.


Have you read any of the posts in this thread that pointed out that turning off the buff has certain out of game side effects like on recruitment?

More than a few hundred people make it through pre-nerf, just count the guilds that cleared everything before the first nerf hit and do that times 10 or 25 depending on the raid size...
My question still stands: We have 3 modes of the very same raid, 2 of these are easily accessible by the vast majority. Why is it necessary to ruin the third mode for the ones who enjoy it? It's not about elitism, it's about providing a satisfying and enjoyable experience for the hardcore players too.


The "why should we ruin this for the hardcore" bit has been explained several posts ago (and in multiple ocasions).

However, there's something this hardcore/casual attitude that hasn't been tackled at length on this thread. (Note: this is a bit of a rant, just my personal, and probably crazy, opinion.)

Perhaps we should find a definition of what's a "hardcore" and a "casual" player (Hint: You'll probably have an easier time predicting the lottery numbers) that the community can agree on. It's an incredible tricky question. If we go by the "classic definition" (is there even one?) of the term, a hardcore player would be any person deeply interested in a game, usually with a very high level of play and understanding, and capable of devoting plenty of time to it.

These days, I've seen it all, from players playing 5 hours a day, 5 days a week, claiming they're casual, to players playing 3 hours a day, 2 days a week, claiming they're hardcore. It obviously can't be that way for everyone. (And truth be told, in most cases I've seen the "casual" or "hardcore" word attached depending on which one would favour the argument that was being presented).

If we go by this sort of "classic definition", then it's very clear who's "hardcore" and who's not. And some people will be very close to that definition, but not close enough. Either because you can't devote enough time (which is completely fine), or because your group doesn't have that level of skill (which, again, is completely fine too).

If we go by that "classic definition" of the term, then we could assume that hardcore players completed the raid relatively quick after the initial Heroic Madness kill and were not affected at all by the debuff.

So, to me, the real question would be "where do we stop considering players hardcore"? But that's a debate that would probably never end...
MVP
90 Gnome Priest
18810
09/07/2012 15:34Posted by Niënni
It's not set in stone and again Jito is defending the current Blizz policy, which isn't helping the discussion which is about whether we consume content too fast and how it can be CHANGED.

Compare what I said earlier to what you've just said now:
07/07/2012 22:34Posted by Jito
But as said, I do think Blizzard can roll the nerfs out a little later in the future, or perhaps roll the nerfs out for Normal mode first, and then Heroic mode a little later, and then perhaps increase the nerfs faster over time to compensate (so instead of increasing it by 5% every month, then it would be 5% every 3 weeks), so the lesser guilds can still progress through the content before a new raid is released.

09/07/2012 15:34Posted by Niënni
For instance, I think we wouldn't have had this discussion if normal mode had been 10-15% more difficult and if the nerfs to heroic mode (which I am not totally against as posted before) would start later or be less big. For instance, wait 4 months instead of 2. Start nerfing normal after 2 months for all I care. Do it by 10% per month for all I care. But give hc modes a smaller nerf and if you do want to start nerfing it after 2 months perhaps nerf it with 2,5% with a monthly increase of 2,5% but even better would be tuning certain abilities, like we have seen many many times in the past.

It seems as if we're pretty much in agreement here, doesn't it?
90 Orc Hunter
14230
There are 3 types of players:

  • Hardcore
  • Semi-Hardcore
  • Casual


Hardcore - Players who push for higher world ranks (starting from World Firsts to top 200) and raid 5-7 days a week. They play for fun and progress

Semi-Hardcore - Players who push for higher world ranks, raid 2-4 days , 3-4 hours per day. They play for fun and progress.

Casual - Players who play for fun mainly and they raid 2-3 days , 3 hours per day or maybe less.
90 Orc Warlock
16475
You should give an achievement, mount or somekind of reward to the raiders that finish a raid before you apply any nerfs, same way you give something to pvp players that finish in top .5% of the ladder.
90 Human Paladin
15460
There are 3 types of players:

  • Hardcore
  • Semi-Hardcore
  • Casual


Hardcore - Players who push for higher world ranks (starting from World Firsts to top 200) and raid 5-7 days a week. They play for fun and progress

Semi-Hardcore - Players who push for higher world ranks, raid 2-4 days , 3-4 hours per day. They play for fun and progress.

Casual - Players who play for fun mainly and they raid 2-3 days , 3 hours per day or maybe less.


How about those players that Blizzard made LFR for?

You know, those who doesn't raid at all, but only does LFR?

After all, they implemented it for people who doesn't have time to raid, to be able to experience DS, by your definition, they should be the "casuals", but they don't raid, so that can't be it.

Thus you are missing one definition.
90 Dwarf Shaman
12240
Good suggestion Jito :) :P

As for the classic hardcore players as defined by Draztal, I think we all agree that that is a relatively small group, probably in the area of the people that cleared SWP while it was current or capable of doing LK25hc with 5%-10% buff. That is what most people agree is such a small group of players that it should not be catered to. But it is exactly what Blizzard does cater to by making the heroic content they make. Which is great, because no one wants those super guilds to clear a new tier in a day after release either.

There are however many many many such small groups right behind this group. Some a bit further, some months behind, some a lot behind in collective skill level. I'm not going to try to define all those groups because it's not the topic and not easily done like Draztal pointed out. There are a few archetypes you can see though. And the other end of the spectrum can be interesting for the discussion. For the group far behind on skills (new players for instance) with hardly any time to spend online, there is LFR. I think it's great that it's there for that group of gamers. For the ones who can dedicate one or two evenings a week to raid, but don't have time to hone their skills or read up on tactics, or are relatively new and don't have the pve experience many oldschool players have picked up the hard way, there is normal modes, which can be gradually nerfed over time because it makes it more accessible for them to overcome roadblocks due to skill or time to spend. These groups are catered to aswell, which is great.

Then there is another archetype of serious gamer at a relative high skill level that is capable of raiding heroic modes and has a few hours to spare besides 2 raids a week to read up about mechanics and stay up to date on his class, but doesn't have the time he used to have or possibly never had to raid 5 nights a week.

Since all those groups are paying customers they all feel entitled to the same special treatment as others. And most of those groups are catered to. It's just the last archetype that seems to be very active in this thread that states that by nerfing heroic modes too soon and with a chainsaw, are feeling like they are not taken seriously anymore. Do the other groups need to be catered to even more by making Madness heroic accessible for them? I really don't see how it would be bad thing for guilds to not kill end bosses on heroic. I failed to kill Ragnaros heroic 25 because we just didn't have the time and collective skill to do so. I don't have to go back now either, it's cool.

But isn't the fact that instead of having 0,5% (making that number up as an example) clearing SWP at the end of an expansion we have LFR for 100% of the community to see and experience the lore, story and encounters? And that with some effort, but it depends on the time and skills you are willing to hone, normal mode is available for 100% of the people interested in raiding aswell?

Edit for spelling.
Edited by Niënni on 09/07/2012 16:12 BST
90 Human Warlock
14095
09/07/2012 15:37Posted by Niënni
Have you read any of the posts in this thread that pointed out that turning off the buff has certain out of game side effects like on recruitment?

If your guild is that good, recruitment is never an issue.

09/07/2012 15:37Posted by Niënni
More than a few hundred people make it through pre-nerf, just count the guilds that cleared everything before the first nerf hit and do that times 10 or 25 depending on the raid size...


127 guilds had cleared DS Heroic before the nerf of 31st January, mostly on 10 man. That means fewer than 1500 players - i.e. a few hundred. You are not one of them, and like me, very likely wont ever be. There's no shame in that.
Edited by Jessicka on 09/07/2012 16:05 BST
90 Orc Warrior
9625
09/07/2012 15:44Posted by Draztal
So, to me, the real question would be "where do we stop considering players hardcore"? But that's a debate that would probably never end...


And does it matter at all?

The point was that a lot of people(and thats just my claim) that perhaps dont fit the classic definition of hardcore(since they cant devote a million hours in a few weeks) feel that they were effectively(dont start the "turn the Aspect-buff off" discusion again please - it has been covered) robbed of the opportunity to complete the unnerfed content!

Your answer to this group is to get classic hardcore or accept the conditions as they are?

My suggestion - apparantly along with your very active MVP - is to listen a bit to this crowd and delay the initial nerfs a few more months.
Edited by Zinzz on 09/07/2012 16:10 BST
MVP
90 Gnome Priest
18810
09/07/2012 16:01Posted by Vexeer
You should give an achievement, mount or somekind of reward to the raiders that finish a raid before you apply any nerfs, same way you give something to pvp players that finish in top .5% of the ladder.

Tom Chilton commented a bit on this at the last Blizzcon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ui4-Usi3aX4#t=387s

So maybe you'll see something like that in the future.
85 Night Elf Priest
5765
Drazal nerfs is okay and it is needed but it has to be a limit on how much blizzard nerf it because 5-10 maximum 15% should be alright but when we start looking at 30% nerfs it is getting out of control.

I do understand that blizzard wanna keep subs for all costs... A game should have a difficulty and it should have goals.

05/07/2012 10:05Posted by Draztal
The 4.3 heroic dungeons and Dragon Soul when the patch was released are a good measure to get an impression on how the content will look difficulty wise.

This is in my view and many others sad due the fact that encounters is cleared right now in 1 raid night in my casual guild full heroic i feel like... What now?

As i said it is okay to nerf encounters for players that simply can't break it but when it gets this far in the easiness i do believe that players that can't kill the bosses simply have take to much water over the head.

What i would like to give for my idea would be that the "major nerf" that makes alot of players available to kill the final encounter should come when there is a new encounter the set goals to. I know you have said when i new encounter is released alot of guilds simply do not care for the old encounter... This is how it looks right now but we have a whole expansion forward to make old heroic encounters. Lets say t14 heroic still satisfying to progress through in t15 maybe the Normal t15 gear needs to have a smaller gap from t14 Heroic to keep the encounter being a goal for those who coulden't kill it when it was active.

Maybe a bigger reward then just a shiny loots, titels and achivments if possible?

To make it short what i would like to have in MoP

Encounters should get nerfed but not to much and not to fast.

Old tiers should still be satisfying to kill for example...t14 HC gears being satisfying even in tier 15...t14 HC gears being satisfying even in tier 15...Something more then just achivments and titels maybe.

And when encounters gets to farmed to much then it is time for a new encounter and not waiting for another 3 mounths... It could be something simple like buffing level 70 raids for a short time to be a challenge for the highest level since myself i love to go back to old places even thought i hate them.
The point was that a lot of people(and thats just my claim) that perhaps dont fit the classic definition of hardcore(since they cant devote a million hours in a few weeks) feel that they were effectively(dont start the "turn the Aspect-buff off" discusion again please - it has been covered) robbed of the opportunity to complete the unnerfed content!

Your answer to this group is to get classic hardcore or accept the conditions as they are?


My answer to that group is that they can turn the debuff off.

The answer to that is that they can't because of the realm race (or whichever), but in that case, at least to me, it sounds like the interest of that group doesn't lie on the challenge itself, as much as on finishing ahead of others (which is probably just as fun for some people).

As long as the possibility to turn off the debuff exists, noone is being "robbed" of anything. The challenge is still there, if you and your guildmates want to do it.
90 Pandaren Hunter
16505
05/07/2012 10:21Posted by Draztal
Not really. Nerfing content doesn't help the same spectrum of players. Players that are struggling on, let's say, Heroic Hagara, will eventually give up if they can't progress further. The only question in that case is, how long before they stop? Might be a month, or six, but if they can't progress, they'll stop. That's the crowd that those nerfs are aimed at.


I would be willing to bet that a lot of those guilds that are struggling on a boss will not stop, they will look at why they cannot do it if others can.

Do blizzard not see how defeating it is for a guild that has been struggling on a boss for weeks and be close to killing it to have that boss nerfed and then go in a faceroll it.

Yes, people will say "you can turn the buff off" but let's be honest, that is not really an option either. If doing it without the buff ( or debuff, whatever you want to call it) awarded some special item even it was just vanity ( ie: the platform hagara uses at the start as a mount) for doing it without the buff then most guilds would be very happy.
09/07/2012 15:44Posted by Draztal
My question still stands: We have 3 modes of the very same raid, 2 of these are easily accessible by the vast majority. Why is it necessary to ruin the third mode for the ones who enjoy it? It's not about elitism, it's about providing a satisfying and enjoyable experience for the hardcore players too.


The "why should we ruin this for the hardcore" bit has been explained several posts ago (and in multiple ocasions).

However, there's something this hardcore/casual attitude that hasn't been tackled at length on this thread. (Note: this is a bit of a rant, just my personal, and probably crazy, opinion.)

Perhaps we should find a definition of what's a "hardcore" and a "casual" player (Hint: You'll probably have an easier time predicting the lottery numbers) that the community can agree on. It's an incredible tricky question. If we go by the "classic definition" (is there even one?) of the term, a hardcore player would be any person deeply interested in a game, usually with a very high level of play and understanding, and capable of devoting plenty of time to it.

These days, I've seen it all, from players playing 5 hours a day, 5 days a week, claiming they're casual, to players playing 3 hours a day, 2 days a week, claiming they're hardcore. It obviously can't be that way for everyone. (And truth be told, in most cases I've seen the "casual" or "hardcore" word attached depending on which one would favour the argument that was being presented).

If we go by this sort of "classic definition", then it's very clear who's "hardcore" and who's not. And some people will be very close to that definition, but not close enough. Either because you can't devote enough time (which is completely fine), or because your group doesn't have that level of skill (which, again, is completely fine too).

If we go by that "classic definition" of the term, then we could assume that hardcore players completed the raid relatively quick after the initial Heroic Madness kill and were not affected at all by the debuff.

So, to me, the real question would be "where do we stop considering players hardcore"? But that's a debate that would probably never end...


Well, if you look at wowprogress there were 57 25man guilds that killed Heroic Madness at 0% buff. I think many 25man guilds, maybe even up to world rank 500 or past that would consider themselves hardcore.
The fact that you started nerfing so soon with only 57 25man guilds having cleared all the content definitely makes us 'consume the content too fast'. Noone was anywhere near BiS gear at that time if they were still progressing so this 'brick wall' which has been mentioned a couple of times cannot possibly be hit yet because the gear will make the fights a lot easier without the needs of nerfs.
Please don't say 'you can turn off the buff', because if you want to stay competitive with whoever you are racing (wether it's server first or world top 100 rank) you have to take every advantage you can get, especially if the others have it as well.
I think the nerfs are acceptable for when players start hitting this 'brick wall', but you don't hit a brick wall in 10 raid resets. You cannot speak of a brick wall when there's a lot of room to improve in gear and in tactics which you learn by trying.

Edit: I might be a bit off with the date/rankings when the nerfs hit, but the point still remains thesame.
Edited by Wannabeone on 09/07/2012 16:21 BST
90 Dwarf Shaman
12240
09/07/2012 16:16Posted by Draztal
The answer to that is that they can't because of the realm race (or whichever), but in that case, at least to me, it sounds like the interest of that group doesn't lie on the challenge itself, as much as on finishing ahead of others (which is probably just as fun for some people).


For the long term this is still a very valid argument though in my opinion. The recruitment factor has been mentioned a number of times, and you're just not doing yourself a favor by turning off the buff. If you can get everyone in your raid group to agree on not using the buff to begin with.

It's there. Basically not using it is like saying "well we've put legendaries in the game in 4.2 and 4.3 and all kinds of new higher ilvl gear, but you don't have to get or use any of that if you want a challenge." The turning off the buff argument is just not realistic.
85 Draenei Mage
4370
The point is, why do hc raids 'have' to be cleared by casuals and casual guilds? Is it to somehow justify the budget spent on developing them?

It seems that this is the new cheap and cheesy way of calling stuff content that just isnt content. Here's how I see it. Blizz develop a new raid with the bosses as designed. Then they simply subtract an ability for each tier of difficult aaannnnd Huzzah, suddenly they have tripled the content.

In any event Blizzard make far too much of the so called money spent on development. 90% of it is cut n paste and reskinning. Even the much heralded transmorgrification is little more than data base manipulation.

The bottom line is that the nerfs have nothing to do with Blizz wanting the player base to see all the content. The nerfs exist to keep subscribers or more accurately to panda to bad players by giving the illusion of more content where none actually exists.
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