Once again, tier jumping is something that should be fixed.
Edited by Jayhoney on 10/07/12 11:30 (BST)
When did (continous) wiping on bosses and failure to kill a boss become a bad thing? The way i see "raiding content" is that it is a synonym for "challenge" and when you nerf the content to be easier, you take away content and that is my beef with the gradual nerfs. You are saying that the nerfs are to make people who are stuck on a certain boss with no skill to kill it to be able to. My point is that they still prolly have a hard time killing the bosses before it, they might even get a challenge out of normal mode of the raid, they have content, and im annoyed that i dont. I would much rather still be wiping on warmaster or spine than be on the 2nd month of my hiatus from raiding, and i can assure you the people who would be stuck on a "brickwall" to their skill would still be raiding and try to better themselves, and if they wouldnt do you think they would have stopped playing?
You (whoever is in charge of applying these nerfs) also have to admit and understand that turning the buff off is not an option for a raiding guild of 25 people anywhere. I'll point out few reasons.
You have to understand that for the most raiders consider PvE competetive, some more than others but they do. The way to measure "how good" of a guild you are raiding wise is the date you kill a boss, and most people check this through wowprogress. In this tier i raided both in a 25 man guild, raiding 3 times a week which managed to clear the whole tier, not hardcore but still within top 1000 and i raided in a 10 man guild twice a week who are not considered anywhere near hardcore, top 100ish in the realm. My point is that what i hear from raiders in both of the guilds is these ratings, most of the players from each guilds check these constantly and get a huge kick out of beating another guild. All the guilds you are "against" are using the nerfs when they come, so you cant turn it off. Even if you prefer it as a raid leader, you wont find enough players (25) that agree with your point of view about turning it off, most people want to compete against others in the same realm and world, it has become a way to measure how the skill of your guild grows from a tier to another.
Lastly few points and questions about the gearing route planned for Mists of Pandaria. In this patch (4.3) and throughout cataclysm the biggest problem outside 25 man raids has been the lack of anything difficult outside of the 3 times of raiding (excluding the first few weeks of heroic dungeons which is the best time i've had on 5 man dungeons so far). My first question is that are we forced to do lfr? To phrase it another way is the gear pre raiding going to be lfr gear>hc dungeon/challenge>normal dungeons/quests. If so, please stab me in the throat with a rusty knife. Why are we forced to do lfr where i cant remember having fun at ever. Doesnt matter what i do, what others do, bosses just fall over dead and you hope for loot. What i've seen from challenge modes of 5-mans on the other hand seem really fun and i can see myself doing those a lot. I would also enjoy doing 10 mans on my main that raids 25 mans, even if it would give me no loot at all, rather than on an alt, and hope my 9 other friends would have alts as well. How about a special 10/25 man mode for those who have been locked out already that rewards funny hats?
My question, or rather a suggestion is that wouldnt it make sense to put at least the same item level rewards (even at a really low droprate, higher chance for faster runs?)to challenge dungeons as on lfr. To my common sense rewarding gear for raiding for something that requires no skill to actually play makes no sense, nor does rewarding fancy rp dresses and funny hats for something that requires quite a high amount of personal skill. So to put a question simple, is the best gear (excluding valor) pre raiding normal raids coming from a) LFR or b) would you consider LFR+Challenge modes to share at least some of the loot. A simple plea from someone who is sick and tired of going to lfr which is nothing else than a 100% chance of trading time for a chance of loot and quaranteed valor points.
If someone, months later, can clear the content in half the time the original group did, then it probably is a group that doesn't need the debuff to play at that level anyways.
A group that needs the 20% debuff to progress through Heroic Dragon Soul is not going to realistically clear it in half the time or half the effort than others did. It's really allowing them to tackle the content, not breeze through it.
Wether or not players haven't cleared Dragon Soul at this point is slightly irrelevant Ujellibrah, I'm saying this because when the nerfs started most had only just returned from Christmas holidays.., and considering it's only an 8 boss tier with a very limited loot table, 1 - 1½ month is next to no time for a proper gearing process in terms of a raid throughout put (Natural nerf through gearing to overcome a challenging boss)
This is actually useful feedback (which you and others have mentioned on this thread) for the developers, thanks.
Oh, please, not at all. I loved TBC and I was very deep into raiding back then. I've actually mentioned what I think a hardcore player would be here.
So, you had the chance to progress further (and actually get gear that would have helped you overcoming Vashj and Kael'thas) but you decided that, for whatever reason, you didn't belong in there, despite the removal of the attunements. That kind of self-imposed restriction is fine, sure, but I can't feel much empathy to an argument that basically says "we couldn't progress, and when you gave us the chance to do something different and progress, we still refused to take it."
The debuff only makes things easier, it doesn't get rid of any mechanics, and you can't ignore them either.
Players improve every time, some will improve more than others, but there's always something to learn when you're progressing through encounters.
It's a roadblock for the guilds stuck on that boss (others may be stuck on Yor'sahj, and others may be stuck on Blackhorn, you probably get the point).
It might be meaningless to you, but there're players progressing through Normal even these days, for whatever their reason is. If your guild is used to raiding in Heroic, that's great, but don't write off Normal as something that noone does other than to unlock Heroic, because, honestly, it's not true. There are players that do find a challenge in that difficulty, and actually expect at some point to move on and tackle Heroic, just as other guilds are doing now.
Honest question, do you realistically think your guild, you, and your friends, would have kept up with 10 months of straight bashing your head against Ragnaros? 10 months, 40 weeks of knowing that there's nothing new in your raid than this one boss you're seeing where you're making almost very little weekly progress. Time is a big factor here. There's a difference on keeping the willingness to tackle a challenge for 2 weeks straight until you see it fall, with keeping that same willingness during 10 months.
Edited by Deadweight on 10/07/12 11:43 (BST)
Honest answer, yes if that's what it takes. Though 10 months would be a bit of an exaggeration as we're not in the top50 of guilds and we are able to use tactics and tips that others have found out before us. It was more of an example that some people need more time than others, and they should be allowed to use that time. The point is, there are people who are able to overcome the encounters, they just do it slower than the top guilds.
In reality, we killed Baleroc HC on 29/9/11, so at the time DS was launched we had been progressing on Rag HC for less than 3 months and we were already in phase 4, with probably only around 150 wipes. And we were happily bashing our head against it, that's the whole point of heroic raiding, conquering difficult challenges. For us, DS was launched maybe a month too early.
A more extreme sample would be LK25HC. We killed Putricide HC 26/05/10 and Lick King 31/10/10. That took more than 5 months of wiping on a single boss. And at no point were we even considering giving up, as almost every night we were seeing some progress. Maybe not percentage wise, but with better handling of certain situations.
Having a team of friends with whom to progress is a blessing. When you're raiding with a tight group you persevere and try to conquer challenges, you don't need someone to force nerfs on you. I do agree that while progressing on Lich King, the nerfs were needed, or we wouldn't have killed it before Cataclysm. But in DS the nerfs came way too early, as we weren't even starting to get stuck. In my opinion, you should've waited until the end of March or even April, to let people properly test themselves before starting the gradual nerfs.
Now we're left wondering how we can survive the summer of boredom, as DS is cleared in a single night. We have to come up with all kinds of solutions to keep people intrested, so we can keep them in the guild and not leaving for other games, as there's nothing to do in WoW. That's a real problem on low population servers, as if people would leave, we might not get a team together for MoP. As such, the nerfing of DS couldn't have happened at a worse point.
Imagine that, same few bosses for over 10 months
Thing is, WoW attracted new and more players during vanilla and TBC(Even Wotlk, but thats mostly due to arthas being killable, not the quality of raiding, excluding ulduar), because things were !@#$%^- hard, things were challenging, and were not talking about 1-2 Bosses in One instance(Hello cataclysm) that were hard, were talking about the entire !#"¤"#¤ing game.
When seeing someone fully decked in T1, T2, T2.5 or even T3, you knew EXACTLY what timeinvestment he had done, you knew that he had spent hours farming mats for X resistance gear, or 23432x flasks for progressing at Y boss.
It grew even bigger during wotlk
You envied him, you wanted his gear, and from thereon you grew hungrier for more, you wanted to join that better guild to be able to have a chance at getting those items, or experience those epic bosses.
What im trying to say is, if everyone looks the same, with the same gear, stats and skills, what is there to aim for?
Killing Rat with my Cat in pet battles?
Edited by Jessicka on 10/07/12 11:54 (BST)
No, I'm quite sure he just wants to play the game at the same point everyone else is, it has nothing to do with envy or greed.
You're looking at two distinct groups of players here:
1, The long time players who have completed previous tiers and will naturally progress to the latest. They have no reason to go back to the last tier since they ground it out for months, are bored of it and have nothing to gain from it having farmed it so long.
2, Incoming players, be they new to the game, freshly dinged alts, people who have only just taken an interest in raiding for whatever reason.
Group 2 wants to raid, and they're probably not actually too concerned what they raid, but all the people who are doing raids with any degree of organisation are typically a part of group 1. Yet group 1 are unwilling, or unable to bring people from group 2 along due to gearing constraints even though Group 1 might well want to take people from group 2 in order to make up their numbers, cover gaps in their raid composition etc. It's therefore necessary that group 2 have access to a degree of gear to allow them to both be useful to group 1, and be able to participate in the content. The gear they're "handed" is only of minimal value of effectiveness, and no one who cares attaches any value to it because they know where it's from. They're not "getting what you have for minimal effort", because people know where yours came from, and by the time they'll have got theirs from the nerfed old content, should they opt to do it, you'll have much better from the current tier.
Mostly, you guys really need to stop seeing gear as a status symbol, because that's only true at the very highest level, the stuff with the green marker that says 'Heroic', and only when it's current content. As soon as the next tier is released, it ceases to be a status symbol and once again it becomes a tool for progression, and is soon replaced.
A lot of complaints here are about the 'nerf' coming too soon. I agree with that sentiment, but on the other hand the alternative is for the next tier to come too soon. I'd rather get to see out and clear the current tier while it's current, because I know I wont have time when it's old to get those runs through it in because I'll be busy with whatever's new. "But I can clear it in LFR or Normal mode" I hear you cry. LFR is a joke, you don't so much see the content as have it played to you in fast forward - I actually think that's kinda sad as you're not really allowed to savour it. Normal mode was I think undertuned this tier too, but relative to that I think there weren't enough bosses in DS Heroic to allow for a reasonable difficulty curve to be built, with each boss feeling substantially more challenging than the next - it's that that has led to the 'brick walling'.
I like a challenge, but I don't want it to be insurmountable. If my guild are finding Normal too easy, but can only kill a couple bosses on Heroic - what do you propose we do for the next few months until the next tier is released? Give up? Get bored farming normal mode for no gain?
This is true, not many guilds would survive that. The point though is only the very top guilds saw this Monster called Ragnaros in unnerfed state. In general I think the nerfing of Firelands was decent, I though would love if you spent more time looking at what's the problem behind encounters, instead of making big unneeded general nerfs.
E.g. Spine Tendon nerf of 15% should have stood alone, so guilds could try it with the same damage from bloods ect as others. Instead of 2 seperate nerfs on top of each other(like yor'sahj 25man).
Ragnaros got nerfs along the way that made the hard phases easier instead of only general nerfs.
Take e.g. Shannox and Rhyolith, these fights are pretty easy once you know them and how to handle the abilities, nerfing the content in a general pattern makes mechanics irrelevant.
Instead of a general nerf on those you could shorten the debuff lenght on Shannox and make the stacking damage on rhyolith stack less %s at the time. This would help guilds more in the future then nerfing fights to the point where mechanics can be outhealed/outdamaged/ignored while the content is still relevant.
Same goes for Yor'sahj, Purple takes 6 stacks to blow up, 5% slower casting speed bonus from yellow, you keep 5k mana from blue and so on.
Nerfs like these would make people still have to use the fight mechanics more properly then what big general nerfs does. Stuff like this is something I would very much like to see, compared to the general % nerfs, which in the end doesn't really help where it's needed.
People are still going to get firelord titels and mounts, even ICC has a lot of raids, why does the big general nerfs have to arrive while it's still relevant? I would rather see specific mechanic help nerfs during content and then you can slap a 30% general nerf on it afterwards thus prolonging the time people spent in instance and providing people to have some older achievements they can go fore if their guild didn't reach it in time.
1 Troll Priest
This issue coupled with the extreme gamebreaking issue of server imblances deems my responce correct. I'm fed up with Blizzard employees arguing what they are doing is right and the community is wrong... What happened to when the community was listened to, enacted upon and changes were made because it was what the community wanted...
Normal modes need to be tougher, the best thing about "pre herioc" era, was that the bosses were tuned to last a length of time due to their difficulty. It wasnt a simple excuse of "youve completed normal.. try our herioc bosses that have slightly more health and we've upped the damage or method for completing the same tactic"
it seems to me that a simple answer is the result of this thread...
1) Normal mode raiders wish that their difficulty were harder and subsequently lasted longer.
2)Herioc mode raiders wish that the nerfs weren't bought in so that they could still be challenged and progress at their own rate without the fear of "we need to progress before the 5% nerf comes in"
3) Every raider is comfortable with the standard of raid finder, just that they wish that the gear isn't so close to the normal mode gear.
Edited by Deadweight on 10/07/12 11:59 (BST)
If we want the end-of-expansion bosses feel extremely difficult, there's never enough bosses within a single tier to enable that kind of learning curve. That's why resetting difficulty every tier does not work, it needs to build up slowly during the expansion from one tier to the next.
And this is also why the whole expansion worth of raids needs to stay relevant one way or another, so everyone can experience all of the content and progress through the learning curve. I posted one option of doing this earlier and I know Blizz can come up with several other possibilities. This would also decrease the need for nerfs as people would learn at their own pace and be able to progress as the steps required to progress would be much smaller.
The point is that unless the learning curve is lengthened, we will always have either brickwalls, or pushovers as heroics.
Edited by Jessicka on 10/07/12 11:59 (BST)
If we want the end-of-expansion bosses feel extremely difficult, there's never enough bosses within a single tier to enable that kind of learning curve. That why resetting difficulty every tier does not work, it needs to build up slowly during the expansion from on tier to the next.
Nah, ICC was fine.
Was it now, the way I remember it, the first 11 were more or less easy and then there was a great jump to Putricide, Sindragosa and another jump to Lich King. And I can only talk for the 25man versions, things might have been different in 10man.
Why give up if you run into a difficult boss? Do you want free loot and achievements? There are hundreds of tactic threads and videos to be found on each boss. Maybe your group needs some better gear, or change some specs or glyphs around to get the edge, OR (and this is crazy) maybe just a bit of practice to get the hang of the mechanics.
And if that doesn't work, I am all for nerfs after a few months, just not this big this fast, and preferably not a general percentage nerf but a nerf to certain mechanics or adds health pool etc.
Edited by Rilgania on 10/07/12 12:07 (BST)
OK, this was poor wording on my part. I understand that sweeping through normal mode is possibly something only hardcore and semi hardcore raids do, which are, possibly, the minority. New, unexperienced raids and pugs probably find some challenge in latter normal modes.
Yet I'd still like to suggest that normal mode could use a slight buff. At least, it shouldn't be nerfed. When looking at my realm's rankings on wow-progress.com, which is not even close to the top raiding realms, more than 40 guilds had downed Madness on normal by the time the nerf hit. This sure makes it look like normal mode raids don't really need it.
That's just blatantly untrue. A fireland example would be the firestorm on alysrazor HC, you could just ignore that keep dpsing her after the big nerf.
But to be more 'in the now' with examples:
- tentacles on heroic zon'ozz or not really an issue anymore nor is not taking too many bounces. Sure you still need to kill the tentacles but it's no 'omg focus them down' moment anymore. At the end you can happily leave them up and nuke down the boss for a much longer time.
- yor'sahj: it's perfectly viable to ignore the slimes in quite a few combinations
- Warmaster: no need to soak the little explosions anymore, just burn down everything before they have time to do dmg to the ship.
There are probably tank and healer specific things I don't really have a view on too.
And yet, there were no significant nerfs in T11 which we were supposed to be doing for +/-7-8 months. And assuming MoP won't launch before the end of september we weren't given *anything* new in 10 months now either. So it's not like players are making things up when they look at it and assume that we are supposed to spend that much time on a content patch.
The main reason why I personally dislike these buffs is because it forces us to play more hardcore. Or to define hardcore, it forces us to play more hours a week. It's just not viable to play only 2 times 3 hours a week and slowly nibble your way through the content. Gearing people up and probably being stuck on eg. Hagara hc for a week or 5. Because instead of being able to learn at our own pace we know that the clock is ticking before it will be made easy. ( of course you'll bring up this is an optional buff, but lets be fair we all know it does not work that way.)
So in short: small nerfs to specific abilities ( eg. spine tendon health or baleroc his swings or whatever) are okay and should come in to make content viable for the real hardcore at first and then for the rest. But I don't believe the difference in skill between the 1000th guild in the world and 15000th is anywhere near as big as the one between the 1th and the 1000th. The main difference there is time.
Oh just one more thing I just though of.
I feel like the 'mistake' in your reasoning is that it's looking at current raiding from a vanilla/tbc view. In those days if you were stuck on a boss. You were stuck. You couldn't just go kill it on normal ( or LFR) get some loot and continue on. But now you can. So there is nothing wrong with being stuck on heroic spine for 5 months. Because you can still play and kill it/clear the instance each week. And just clearing the instance is obviously something Blizzard *is* fine with because otherwise they wouldn't give that and just that for the last 6 months to a whole lot of players.
We had to run it for a year. Many had it on farm and those that didn't either weren't good enough even with the buff to clear it on hc or just didn't care anymore (or couldn't get a group together due to attendance issues).
But having that many bosses and the scaling of difficulty within the instance was pretty good imo.
Why I don't like lfr :
Its not a hardcore/casual issue.
Its a grind.
It has become obligatory to grind lfr to gear up for normal to grind to gear up for hc.
By the time you get there you are sick of the raid.
I suggest you have a lighter lfr version then add a bit more - extra bosses and end boss ? -> to normal (a challenge for normal humans).
Then beef it up and add mega tough extra end boss variant for HC for the crazy hardcores.
farm more gear (from the heroic bosses you can kill).
learn better tactics (from those who have beaten it).
if you have reached the limit of your groups capability and the limit of the gear available to you, you step up or go home. once the next tier is released and more gear is available, you can try again with those gear upgrades.
you dont ask nintendo to nerf mario.
i posted this earlier in the thread. if you assume blizzard can keep the difficulty of T1, T2 and T3 of each difficulty mode consistent, this is how i believe tier progression should work (ilvl's are example)