Dont let the 25man raids die...

90 Human Death Knight
20470
Are you guys planning to make some changes to the current 10/25man raid versions. Because right now, pretty much everyone are switching to 10man and that leaves 25man raids to certain death. Maybe make the achievements like they was in Wotlk - 10 and 25man versions. Also a good idea is to make some mounts/pets/titles drop/being earned only from 25mans.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13220
I don't particularly like 25man raiding purely because I find 10man to be far more personal and a tighter-knit group, if you will. However I completely agree! I used to raid 10 and 25 man pre-shared lock during WotLK and it was fun, albeit my old lptop used to have a fit...

Gogo 25mans!
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85 Draenei Death Knight
12920
I won't turn this into a difficulty discussion, but quite a few guilds I know who've gone 10 man this tier have done so due to difficulty disparities. The only encounters I'd consider harder on 10 man heroic are Hagara and Madness. Spine heroic 10 seemed faceroll in comparison to 25 man. Due to that, some guilds might think "Why are we fussing so much over trying to organise 25 man and run the harder content when 10 man provides easier content, bar a few encounters, for the same gain?". Of course this is not always the case. The only reason we swapped from 25 man to running 2 groups of 10 is due to massive hits to our roster. However, it did give me a fairly good idea of the difficult disparities between the 2 settings. There will also be people who say 10 man is harder than 25 and vise verser.

It's a shame. On our server, there's only 1 guild left who's raiding 25 man. In MoP, we will start going back to 25 man as our roster fills up, however that's just 1 guild compared to the many this server had at the start of the expansion. I know of several guilds who went 10 man right before 25 man for the loot reason, straight off the bat without even considering raid difficulty disparities.

The problem, I feel, with WotLK was that it was kind of killing off 10 man guilds and making people feel pressured into raiding 25 man if they wanted to progress further. This tier has had the oppposite effect. Going back to the WotLK raid style won't help fix the problem, it will only reverse it. As said in the OP, separate titles would be a good idea, or mounts and achievements. Something which won't make those who raid one bracket feel forced into the other bracket in order to progress while making unique rewards for each.
Edited by Sacrolash on 05/07/2012 13:39 BST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
8770
I miss doing 10 and 25 man each week
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90 Pandaren Shaman
MoX
10085
I still wish Blizz went for 15 man raids. Correct me if I'm wrong but there's only been what... 3? And they were Stratholme and UBRS/LBRS about 8 years ago almost.

15 is a nice number and having one size means you can tune the fights for that size only, making the fights much more memorable.
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MVP
90 Gnome Priest
18815
Zarhym did comment a bit on it a few months ago:

We'll continue making adjustments as necessary to keep 10- and 25-player raids within a relative alignment, in terms of time investment, difficulty and rewards. It may never be perfect, but we still see interest in both raid sizes for different reasons. And ultimately we'll continue designing 25-player raids as long as there are a decent number of guilds interested in the format. We've seen no evidence as of yet that such interest is waning to any degree that should cause us great concern.

We tend to begin raid design around 25 players anyway before tuning for the various sizes and difficulties. That, when combined with our intent to carry on with 25-player Raid Finder group sizes, makes it very much worth our time to continue designing 25-player raids.

Regardless of what players' personal preferences or opinions are regarding the varied raid formats in World of Warcraft, we don't see removing options as a smart choice in the foreseeable future.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4427708031?page=21#412

I think it'll be fine. I mean, whilst the raiding community does seems to err on the side of 10man raiding at the moment, there's still a substantial, devoted amount of players who are interested in 25man raiding. And as long as that is the case, to whatever extent, I don't think 25mans are going anywhere.

But at the same time, I don't think it's Blizzard's job to hold a hand under 25man raids. So the whole idea of having better or exclusive rewards in 25man is a no no as far as I'm concerned. The premise for 10man and 25man raid sizes existing is that players are interested in those raid sizes — not that they are interested in exclusive rewards associated with either size.
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90 Human Paladin
7900
Zarhym did comment a bit on it a few months ago:

We'll continue making adjustments as necessary to keep 10- and 25-player raids within a relative alignment,


The problem is that statement right there. Keeping in alignment means that it is viewed to be in alignment right now. Of course there are servers with a healthy 25-man raiding population who probably don't think any different. However, on realms such as mine, there used to be a number of good 25-man raiding guilds (relatively good anyway) and now there's only ours; and even we're doing 10-mans until MoP because of a drop in numbers once we killed Madness heroic.
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14 Orc Warlock
14045
05/07/2012 13:04Posted by Adlian
Maybe make the achievements like they was in Wotlk - 10 and 25man versions. Also a good idea is to make some mounts/pets/titles drop/being earned only from 25mans.

I disagree. I find this a horrible idea!
Separating the rewards, just means you are making more raids of the same content.
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90 Human Paladin
7900
05/07/2012 16:13Posted by Sak
Maybe make the achievements like they was in Wotlk - 10 and 25man versions. Also a good idea is to make some mounts/pets/titles drop/being earned only from 25mans.

I disagree. I find this a horrible idea!
Separating the rewards, just means you are making more raids of the same content.


How do you mean?
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14 Orc Warlock
14045
05/07/2012 16:14Posted by Thete

I disagree. I find this a horrible idea!
Separating the rewards, just means you are making more raids of the same content.


How do you mean?

Well, remember the Wrath design?
At end of Wrath, every boss had 4 different modes. Each with different rewards.

I have personally never been a big fan of the introduction of heroic modes. The idea of showing people the content is great, however the idea of reusing the same content over and over is not, in my eyes.

I can live with the current design, where each boss has 2 different modes + there is LFR which basically can be finished within an hour anyway.
But I rather not see Blizzard giving us more separate modes than that. - All it does is just giving us more raids of the same content.
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90 Human Paladin
7900
I can live with the current design, where each boss has 2 different modes + there is LFR which basically can be finished within an hour anyway.
But I rather not see Blizzard giving us more separate modes than that. - All it does is just giving us more raids of the same content.


I can understand that I think, but how is that tied in with having 10-man and 25-man raids on different lockouts again? After all, there are 10-man and 25-man versions now anyway, it's just that most are being painted into the corner of doing 10-man at the moment.
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90 Undead Rogue
12630
Jito , you know most of the people play this game because is an mmorpg.
Blizz with what they made , they simply losse lot of money with subs and the worst is that most of people are simply playing this game for the memories , Nothing else.
Genjuros server started with 12 25-man Guilds= Ended with 1 guild still raiding as a 25-man.

And simply maths.

PLayerbase choose the dps roll since anyone want to be the fighter.Thats why 90%+ are playing as a dpser.

Look this now 10-man setups is 2-tanks+2/3healer+5/6 dpsers . Its ok ,but the dps role is sometimes a 50% of the whole Setup. How such a setup can keep players to play a game if they need either to play tank either healer for having a sure spot in the guild-10-man...
People always will find the dps roll more enjoyable and few others people would find tank/healer.
Look at this now.
Healers : ( Druid-1 spec , Pala-1 spec , Shaman 1-spec , Priest 2-specs ),( That's 5 specs that can play the healer role)
Tanks : (Warrior 1-spec , Dk 1-spec , Pala 1-spec , Druid 1-spec ),(That's 4 spec's that can play the tank spec )
Dps are simply 22 specs (Since feral druid also can be tank/dps )
Simply maths...10-man can't be viable in term's of having more people that choose to play as an Dps.

Why with my alt tank/healer i get instant que for dungeon, and why with my any other dps class/alt i have , i have to wait 30+ minutes sometimes...? Because people choose Dps!!!

10-man simply downrate the people to choose either to play as a tank/healer either to stop playing ...... And seeying how they make with 25-man aswell with the subs...Rerrol to a tank/healer if you wanna raid ....

YOU CAN'T FORCE 50% OF THE WOW POPULATION TO PLAY EITHER TANK/HEALER JUST FOR HAVING THE CHANCE TO RAID.
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14 Orc Warlock
14045
I can live with the current design, where each boss has 2 different modes + there is LFR which basically can be finished within an hour anyway.
But I rather not see Blizzard giving us more separate modes than that. - All it does is just giving us more raids of the same content.


I can understand that I think, but how is that tied in with having 10-man and 25-man raids on different lockouts again? After all, there are 10-man and 25-man versions now anyway, it's just that most are being painted into the corner of doing 10-man at the moment.

Well, different lockouts mean you can get twice the loot.
Even though, I mainly quoted the part suggesting different 'rewards', I also do not agree with giving them different lockouts.

To me it just yells for 'doing the same stuff' one more time per week. And even though I may not directly have to do it myself, - I still don't like the kind of design.

It's great to get more content into the game. But then we should literally also 'get more content' and not just be given an excuse for doing the same over again.
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90 Human Paladin
7900

Well, different lockouts mean you can get twice the loot.
Even though, I mainly quoted the part suggesting different 'rewards', I also do not agree with giving them different lockouts.


Ah I see. Well you certainly shouldn't get two bites of the cherry but the problem is that 25-man raiding is currently dying a death and something needs to be done. If that something is removing normal modes and just having LFR for the easy moders and heroic for everyone else, and then having 10-man loot as normal is now and 25-man loot as heroic is now then so be it.
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85 Troll Druid
7655
I still long for those days of ICC when 10 and 25 had different loot with different ilvl's. Problem with that being, you'd need to genuinely make 25 harder than 10, thus causing a balance issue for those who can't adhere to the raid times of larger 25 man guilds or such.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
8890
05/07/2012 13:45Posted by Azúmi
I miss doing 10 and 25 man each week
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90 Night Elf Warrior
13150
If 25 die they die... Along as there are pplz willing to raid 25s then they will live.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
7785
05/07/2012 14:12Posted by Jito
But at the same time, I don't think it's Blizzard's job to hold a hand under 25man raids. So the whole idea of having better or exclusive rewards in 25man is a no no as far as I'm concerned.


You know we didnt fall from a tree to actually read those things and say "he is right, it is not blizzards's job", "he is ringht, 25s shouldnt have anything exclusive".

When you have 2 different paths FOR THE SAME THINGS and the one is....
1) Harder to create maintain and manage.
2) Harder to coordinate
3) Has lower uptime (aka, time in actual combat)
4) Lowers your performance or you have to lower your graphics due to pc or net limitations

Then it is only natural people to go for the simpler path, even if they prefer the "other" one.
This "choice", is only another one of those FAKED choices they are spoonfeeding us!

"You can turn the nerf/buff off, no one is forcing you to use it". Yep and how about an achievement at least that says that "i did it the hard way" huh?

"You can chose NOT to use LFR/RDF if you dont want to"
Ye, and make an group manualy and travel there for what?
Others are getting 150 valors for pressing a button and insta ported into the dungeon when their "fast food" group is ready.
Others get "the schatchel" if their role happens to be on high demand if THEY JOIN SOLO
Others are getting 15% buff to damage healing and health!
Others are getting LATEST tier OP set bonuses!
How excactly can you turn those down and for what???

"You can raid 25 if you prefer it, no one is forcing you to raid 10". Yep right.
Have you seen the server migrations JUST to raid 25s?
Have you seen what this monstrocity did to server populations?
"How about an achievement that says in what mode i did the raid at least, since all the rest are "no-no" according to the green poster?
No? I thought so. The point is the ones that are selecting the path of least resistance, not to feel BUTTHURT that others have a "big 25" next to their "savior of azeroth" while they only have a "tiny 10". If you raid 10, what is your problem????

Fake choices, fake choices, fake choices!!!
The decisions are made and then they offer the FAKE choices to BLOW SMOKE to people!!!

I prefer an honest, straight forward, in a TIMELY MANNER explanation rather than devs treating me like i am 5 years old and i am going to buy their rubbish arguments!

You can have your opinion alighned to the latest blue trendy fashion mr green!
It doesnt hold any weight to people that actively tried to maintain a non top 25 together in this dreadfull expansion!
Edited by Lorac on 05/07/2012 21:04 BST
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3 Human Mage
0
Translated: "I want Blizzard to give me higher ilevel gear as a reward for all the extra work the GM, officers and raid leader did whilst I just sat on my butt and spammed the same rotation as I use in 10 man".

End of the day you can still raid 25 mans. It is still the ultimate challenge. It is just that the challenge rather than the loot is the main motive now - and the drop in numbers dispels the myth on these forums that hardcore players raid for the challenge and not gear lol.

The player base stopped doing it when the loot shower ended - yes I am talking to YOU the 5 x DPS and 3 x healers in 25 man normal who could sit doing 50% of my output and we could still kill the boss.

Yes I am talking to those slackers that caused us so many problems when we moved into 25 man HC and we had to mass realm transfer because we simply couldn't get enough quality recruits on our realm to fill those spots. It was a pain in the butt. Surprise surprise once the higher ilevel loot was gone many guilds kicked those wasters out and dropped to 10 man.
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90 Orc Shaman
14755
05/07/2012 16:41Posted by Darkblazer
PLayerbase choose the dps roll since anyone want to be the fighter.Thats why 90%+ are playing as a dpser.


As a healer does that make me a pacifist?
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