Dont let the 25man raids die...

90 Pandaren Hunter
16815
I really do not know how many times this needs to be said.

Blizzard are not killing off 25 man raiding. While yes, a lo of 25 man raiders are not in 10 man due to their guild switching over, a lot of it is because people wanted to do 10 man but the progress / gear only came from 25 man.

Now that people got the choice, many many people - myself included - are very happy with 10 man raiding and consider it harder than 25 man in most cases due to the inability to carry slackers.

How many of the 10 man guilds do you see selling HC madness mounts / titles?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Warrior
7785
05/07/2012 22:28Posted by Stinkyedita
Translated: "I want Blizzard to give me higher ilevel gear as a reward for all the extra work the GM, officers and raid leader did whilst I just sat on my butt and spammed the same rotation as I use in 10 man".


You have NO IDEA!
And i am explaining myself by quoting your baseless remarks.

(The game cannot reward the officers and GM seperately, but they SHOULD reward the guild in a way that makes their work easier btw. But thats another story.)

05/07/2012 22:28Posted by Stinkyedita
End of the day you can still raid 25 mans. It is still the ultimate challenge. It is just that the challenge rather than the loot is the main motive now - and the drop in numbers dispels the myth on these forums that hardcore players raid for the challenge and not gear lol.


Shhh troll!
I just mentioned about the fake choices and immediatelly you pop in to repeat the same monotonus song?
There is no other way to have smt complicated surviving over smt more simple unless if there is A REASON to!!!

What "challenge?" You talk about "challenge" you fun of the "LFR", and the "movie mode" raids???
Where this argument fits in modern wow, and how challenge (on personal level only), can lol make up for
1) Less progress combared to the path of least ressistance
2) Less loot. No boss dead, no loot - loot!
3) No extra vanity items per person but LESS!

And you know, since the begining of time...in wow...the better progress you have to more appealing you are to the more skilled players in the server!

Losing 10 spots in realm ranks to do 25s, means THAT YOU WILL NOT HAVE NEW PEOPLE TO KEEP DOING THE 25s!!!

Bloody trolls i have to keep repeating the same things over and over!

05/07/2012 22:28Posted by Stinkyedita
The player base stopped doing it when the loot shower ended - yes I am talking to YOU the 5 x DPS and 3 x healers in 25 man normal who could sit doing 50% of my output and we could still kill the boss.


No, wrath and before had it right.
Now it is wrong.
The way it is now for 25s it is BE PRO OR DIE!!!
Is it the SAME for 10????
Check wow progress... It ISNT!!!

That shows a flawed biased model, because it allows casual or low level 10 to exist but IT KILLS 25 ppl guilds of similar mindset or skill level!!!

05/07/2012 22:28Posted by Stinkyedita
Yes I am talking to those slackers that caused us so many problems when we moved into 25 man HC and we had to mass realm transfer because we simply couldn't get enough quality recruits on our realm to fill those spots. It was a pain in the butt. Surprise surprise once the higher ilevel loot was gone many guilds kicked those wasters out and dropped to 10 man.


Shh, defender of the slackers WHEN IT SUITS YOU, that came here to talk about the slackers THAT YOU, in other threads are SUPPORTING policies TO MULTIPLY them!!!

Yes i am talking for YOUR "business analysis" you clueless -no name- troll that you contradict even yourself so you can troll other people.

1) Are the realms in better shape now, after Cataclysm??? How many medium and high population DIED, because people were MIGRATING to do 25s?
2) How many realms dont have A SINGLE 25 left, just to keep the pretence of a choice???
3) How about all those "new" 10 man teams that are full of slackers? They can exist but 25s "with slackers" not??? why???
There is no hope to sustain a 25 if you re not on top spots in your realm AT LEAST!

In the very end, when i saw your post, the so much different post combaring to those you wright in "LFR" threads, and "make game hard" threads, made me sick!
Learn to be consisted troll if nothing else and dont change the tune your re playing all the time!
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
7900

because people wanted to do 10 man but the progress / gear only came from 25 man.


It's not. The profile of people who would actually want 10-man is a close group of friends who want to essentially game together without too many non-RL players diluting it. There are some groups like this, but relatively few.

Most people choose 10-man because it is the path of least resistance to gear. If 25-man were easier, they'd all change to that again.

It's no different in life, people mostly take the path of least resistance because they want the end reward and take no satisfaction for a job well done.
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Priest
2045

because people wanted to do 10 man but the progress / gear only came from 25 man.


Most people choose 10-man because it is the path of least resistance to gear. If 25-man were easier, they'd all change to that again.



This is so true, Blizzards quest of trying to make everyone happy has damaged the community. I used to be there for the original 40 man raids and remember they were alot of fun, chatting, joking etc. Now people choose raiding completely on how easy it is, opposed to community. A guild previously doing 25 man and has lost a few players will do 10 man, thus pushing away the other raiders into another 10 man group.

If 25's is supposed to be the same difficulty overall as 10 man why do I never see LFM 25 DS (HC or Norm)? The simple answer is that there is no better reward for 25 man, even though there should be just for the sake of organising it. Bad for WoW bad for community spirit.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Warrior
0
so you want better loot just because its harder to find 15 other pplz you like and are quite good... the current system is fine
Reply Quote
90 Undead Rogue
12630
06/07/2012 19:38Posted by Cleggy
so you want better loot just because its harder to find 15 other pplz you like and are quite good... the current system is fine
Damn my alts is 8/8 hc in 10-man ^^. Must lvl up another on just for the lulz, You know having alt those days with better gear than main is Simply Logic**

Ah...And try auchindoun-Eu:) Easy 10-man pug** Hc with 8/8.
Edited by Darkblazer on 06/07/2012 23:19 BST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Warrior
0
?? Is that a dig that I am not 8/8 Hc.
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Priest
2045
06/07/2012 19:38Posted by Cleggy
so you want better loot just because its harder to find 15 other pplz you like and are quite good... the current system is fine


When nearly everyone is pugging DS HC on this realm, it's not hard to find 15 players. So no, it's not about finding them, it's about the fun and spirit of a bigger raid. 25 is clearly more challenging or else there would be 25 pugs and to encourage it there should be better loot just like in days of old.

This thread is about keeping 25 man raiding alive and not making raiding just a glorified dungeon.
Reply Quote
3 Human Mage
0


You have NO IDEA!
And i am explaining myself by quoting your baseless remarks.

(The game cannot reward the officers and GM seperately, but they SHOULD reward the guild in a way that makes their work easier btw. But thats another story.)


Yup we cannot reward them separately but that doesn't justify giving a bunch of slackers higher ilevel gear purely because they are in a larger groups. Funny that people like you always whine about welfare loot yet 25 man normal raiding was perhaps the ultimate source of it given that at least 5 players were totally surplus to requirements in Normal. Hell they should have made it 20 man.


No, wrath and before had it right.
Now it is wrong.
The way it is now for 25s it is BE PRO OR DIE!!!
Is it the SAME for 10????
Check wow progress... It ISNT!!!

That shows a flawed biased model, because it allows casual or low level 10 to exist but IT KILLS 25 ppl guilds of similar mindset or skill level!!!


Wrath had it right? 25 man normal (which was as far as most 25 manners got) was like LFR. Half a dozen players AFK or making pitiful contributions yet the difference was that they got the same ilevel gear as 10 man HC players!!!!!! That is utter BS!!!!!!!!! There was no comparison between 25 man Normal and 10 HC yet they dropped the same gear!!!! This was especially true for the pure 10 man guilds who didn't CHEAT and CHEESE 10 man HC using 25 man gear. 10 Man HC had instant one-shot death mechanics where as 25 Normal was SLACK city - stand in this, don't avoid that, don't use a cool down with this etc.


Shh, defender of the slackers WHEN IT SUITS YOU,


I defend casual players; examine my post history from as recently as yesterday and you will see me heavily criticising "slackers" on this forum for ruining the game for "casuals". Casuals can be A grade ex heroic raiders who simply cannot commit to organised guild raiding any more. My problem in 25 man were "slackers" who were NOT "casual" and were actually committing to hardcore raid schedules but not pulling their weight.


1) Are the realms in better shape now, after Cataclysm??? How many medium and high population DIED, because people were MIGRATING to do 25s?
2) How many realms dont have A SINGLE 25 left, just to keep the pretence of a choice???
3) How about all those "new" 10 man teams that are full of slackers? They can exist but 25s "with slackers" not??? why???
There is no hope to sustain a 25 if you re not on top spots in your realm AT LEAST!


In the great scheme of things the subscription losses caused by Cataclysms poor design choices had a greater impact on the majority than the teeny minority. Raiding was always niche and 25 man was a niche within a niche.


In the very end, when i saw your post, the so much different post combaring to those you wright in "LFR" threads, and "make game hard" threads, made me sick!
Learn to be consisted troll if nothing else and dont change the tune your re playing all the time!


As I've said before, throughout Wrath I was a hardcore raider in a 25 man guild running hard and heroic modes. I am all too aware of the problems we faced as a 25 man guild back then. We all had to pay REAL MONEY to transfer realms in order to get recruits to give us the outputs required for 25 man HC.

We felt compelled to run 25 man as that was where the largest upgrades could be obtained and the frustration I felt in trying to find decent players to fill those spots (the realm just didn't have enough A grade players to satisfy the number of people wanting to raid 25 HC) was partly what caused me to quit as I was sick of wasting my time. I wasn't prepared to make those commitments purely to end up being mediocre and average simply because there weren't enough quality recruits. Too many good players were fragmented across too many long standing guilds and consolidating was simply not realistic as these were long established guilds and people had strong team bonds.

Kind of a shame as if the current system had been in place back then we would have undoubtedly kicked those weaklings from our guild so hard they wouldn't know what day it was and run 2 x 10 man instead. Heck I may still be HC raiding now.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
16575
You can't kill what's already dead.

There is a lot of realms without any 25man and a lot of realms with last 25man running. If they won't fix "ghost" factions/servers, even those will die very soon.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Warrior
7785
As I've said before, throughout Wrath I was a hardcore raider in a 25 man guild running hard and heroic modes. I am all too aware of the problems we faced as a 25 man guild back then. We all had to pay REAL MONEY to transfer realms in order to get recruits to give us the outputs required for 25 man HC.

We felt compelled to run 25 man as that was where the largest upgrades could be obtained and the frustration I felt in trying to find decent players to fill those spots (the realm just didn't have enough A grade players to satisfy the number of people wanting to raid 25 HC) was partly what caused me to quit as I was sick of wasting my time. I wasn't prepared to make those commitments purely to end up being mediocre and average simply because there weren't enough quality recruits. Too many good players were fragmented across too many long standing guilds and consolidating was simply not realistic as these were long established guilds and people had strong team bonds.


Look what i found here, it seems i hitted a button and i am glad i did.

Look, today system is no different in that aspect than back then.
Check wow progress, you will find a gazillion of average 10s. You know, as it was back then, in most of those average teams, there are a couple of decent, or ever great players.
The think is though, that as old average 25s had their "dead lift", the same goes on with today 10 man teams.
The only ones that were really benefited from the change were those people, that actually put progress above teaming up with people, and loot ofc.
Those people did as you said.
They kicked the "bads" so hard and made their "niche" 10.
And if you want my opinion, that, excluding customers from end game, no matter if they re bad, is a BAD GAME DESIGN!

You are advocating how everyone should be able to see all content, as if this is not a game, but a movie, that ALL should see the end.
Yet, you would kick the "bads" so hard if you knew earlier about the changes and keep raiding heroics right?
You understand ofc, that according to your logic, regarding "all experiencing content", to have the ability to EXCLUDE people, without REPLACING them with other people, is fail design right?

The traditional path of average teams to improve, size is irrelevant to that, is to find a way to improve worse players and given the chance, to replace them if they dont improve.

What Cataclysm raiding model did, was to encourage better players JUST TO GET RID, of worse than them players.
And that my dear troll is "niche".
Not the 25s, that were forced to recruit less than average players (according to their team average) to reach the "magic 25".
That is not "niche", it is inclusive and expanding.
That is why WAY more people RAIDED ICC than Firelands and DS even, taking LFR out.

10 man strict raids, is exluding, thus it is more "niche" and more "elitist" 25s ever were!
You re really confused on the matter, take some distance and review the data again.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Rogue
12630
People from Blizz know they made wrong .
But it actually requires something in order to admit that they were wrong and dont have it .

So they start a mystake ....and simply they gonna continue.
And at the end is gonna be simply fatal for the game but who bother anyway....
Just a customer?
The product is bad... Simply stop paying for this.
I have and entire friendlist that they could make easy a 25-man Guild...But they're off months now and at the end im kinda glad:).
Reply Quote
70 Night Elf Warrior
8115
06/07/2012 19:38Posted by Cleggy
so you want better loot just because its harder to find 15 other pplz you like and are quite good... the current system is fine


I want better loot because 25 man raiders deserve it more. Feel free to bash it, but that's why WOTLK worked and Cata made subs drop.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Mage
19135
Translated: I crapped out and raid 10 man because its easier, what do you mean there should be different loot tables for the different brackets like wrath had?


Dem purples mang, dem purples
Reply Quote
05/07/2012 13:04Posted by Adlian
Are you guys planning to make some changes to the current 10/25man raid versions. Because right now, pretty much everyone are switching to 10man and that leaves 25man raids to certain death. Maybe make the achievements like they was in Wotlk - 10 and 25man versions. Also a good idea is to make some mounts/pets/titles drop/being earned only from 25mans.


The devs don't have, at this time, any plans to incentivize 25-man raiding. They want to make 10 and 25-man raids close enough, so that you choose whatever you find more fun.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Shaman
10350
09/07/2012 10:58Posted by Draztal
The devs don't have, at this time, any plans to incentivize 25-man raiding. They want to make 10 and 25-man raids close enough, so that you choose whatever you find more fun.
That's good and all, but even though if numerically 10- and 25-man raiding became equal (which I acknowledge it's impossible to happen due to obvious reasons), 10-mans still have the edge due to logistic reasons. If the effort required during a raid and the rewards were equal, then 10mans are more likely to be selected as the raiding format of choice of a guild due to less strain on the officers/raid leaders when not raiding.

10mans are currently incentivized, even if the devs never wanted to.
Edited by Exiasee on 09/07/2012 11:08 BST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
17285
25 man raids were far better than the 10 man i am doing now.

The only real advantage of 25 man raids is the smaller loot randomness. I have been doing Heroic and normal DS without seeing certain items drop while 25 raid teams utilize all drops far better.

Also some 10 man fights have the same mechanics as the 25 man version which makes them much harder like Hagara heroic.

I prefer 25 but i am shoe horned in 10 mans til Mists :S
Reply Quote
85 Worgen Hunter
15040
10man is just NOT epic at all. A huge part of the game have died while they let 25man decay. It was bad enough when they removed 40man.

Soon this game will be in single player mode, yawn!
Reply Quote
90 Human Warlock
13285
As a GM in a 25 man raiding guild I can honestly say the frustration that we go through trying to get 25 people online and raiding at times is a nightmare, I have on many occasion's since taking over the guild thought about changing to a 10 man simply due to the lack of stress that would be involved.

However I wont do this, I will continue to stress myself and the other officers to ensure that 25 man raiding is what this guild does. I know full well that my stubbornness on this is one of the deciding factors to why we wont get a realm first kill.

I would however appreciate it if blizzard acknowledged that the setting up, running and co-ordination of a 25 man raid is more difficult than a 10 man. this could be something as simple as having a 10 man and 25 man achievement per boss. Just make them "pointless" achievements so people don't feel forced to go get them to compete on achievement tables.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
10595
We raided 10 man in Cata, and we're planning to switch to 25 man in MoP

When Cata came out, I was really excited about being able to switch to 10 man raiding. In WotLK, 25 man raids had better loot, so we had to do 25 man raids, but I always had more fun in a 10 man, and used to run 10 man HC raids far into the small hours of the morning after the main guild 25 man run had finished.

But going pure 10 man had an odd effect on the guild. When we were doing 25 man raids, at least once a week everyone or almost everyone got to raid together. Often, we were scraping the bottom of the barrel, bringing in social members or people who barely raided at all, but we all got together and we all killed some bosses and we all had fun. Except for the raid leader, obviously.

In cata, when we went 10 man, we found that it had a very divisive effect on the guild. There wasn't room in a single 10 man for everyone who wanted to raid, so good raiders got left out. But then because we wanted progression, and took the best and the best geared raiders, the people who raided in week 1 had the gear and experience and were taken back for week 2, and so on, until there was a 10 man elite who got to do heroic raids within a much larger guild who were capable, but had just been left out. Trying to start a 2nd 10 man team never worked - they were "2nd best", and people didn't want to be in that team when there was a first team that could easily boost them. And the first team was reasonably stable, and not interested in boosting people, so we started losing people who would go an raid elsewhere.

This was both divisive, and made it much harder when the main team needed a replacement for the night because someone was away - there was enough of a gap in the gear and enough bad feeling that the first team wouldn't want to take most of the guild members who were available, and in some cases, the guild members didn't want to go with them. That meant that without a replacement, the main team didn't get to raid either, and raiders there started to get frustrated with lack of progress caused by lack of people online. So people stopped showing up, and things just got worse.

I've come to the conclusion that 10 man raiding is too small to sustain a healthy guild. Having multiple 10 man teams leads to the formation of cliques, and having a single 10 man team doesn't have enough people to be able to support a pool of substitutes who'll be there when you need them.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]