PvE trinkets in PvP, A comprehensive review

90 Tauren Shaman
13625
This thread is going to be a comprehensive look over time to see which types of PvE trinkets have often been used in pvp, which design flaws these trinkets have in common and what can be done to make sure this doesn't happen again in the future.

The scientific data

As a scientist myself, I can say that this survey was done in an entirely unscientific way: the only person interviewed for the perceived ''overpoweredness'' of trinkets was myself, also I started my ''research'' with the assumption that a certain species of pve trinkets were overpowered and I found the evidence to support this claim, so it might be slightly colored.
Because I am the only research subject, I may have forgotten, overlooked or generally missed certain trinkets, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Who am I?

I have been involved in high-level pvp since about~s3, I have gladiator in s3/4 and have had the ''junkie'' status on Arena Junkies for the entire TBC, WOTLK & a big chunk of cata. On this shaman I am currently sitting a 2500 team, which should be gladiator or very close.
The above was not stated as bragging, however it is a statement as to why my opinion is relevant on the subject.

The research parameters

For this review I have chosen the following trinkets: Every trinket which could be obtained from a raid in the seasons 3 to 11. This means all the trinkets are from SSC/TK or higher level raid instances. If there are multiple versions of each trinket avaible, I have put the best one on the list for the purpose of being able to compare them.
For this review, I have chosen only to focus on rated arena, simply because rated battlegrounds (introduced in s9) are more group oriented and therefore leave inherently more room for PvE items to be good. However, for RBG similar conclusions could be drawn
I have used the following methods of obtaining a list of trinkets: wowhead searches with the following parameters:
http://www.wowhead.com/items=4.-4?filter=cr=148:149;crs=-2323:-2323;crv=0:0;ma=1;eb=1 (for all the post-TBC trinkets)
and http://www.wowhead.com/items=4.-4 filter=qu=4;cr=16:16:16:16:16;crs=3959:3845:3607:616:4075;crv=0:0:0:0:0;ma=1;eb=1
(for all TBC trinkets from SSC/TK/BT/MH/SWP)
I have also included 1 non-raiding trinket simply because I remember in being so overpowered.
The reason why I don't touch on dungeon, valor or Darkmoon Faire trinkets is because they are easily available to all players and therefore, while they could be overpowered, don't tend to cause as much of an imbalance.

The trinket review

This review will start with the lowest Ilevel slowly working my way up to the highest.
Next to every trinket I will state if it had an effect on competitive arena and if so, why this was.
After this list I will point out which type of trinkets tend to cause the imbalances and which design decisions blizzard should avoid making towards trinkets in order to have a competitive game.
There are 4 categories under which I will label the overpowered trinkets:
1. Class mechanics: this means that a trinket interacts with a certain class mechanic very well and therefore enhances the specific class alot
2. Damage procs: this means that a trinket has the ability to cause damage as a chance on hit, this often causes alot of burst in pvp making these types of trinkets very good
3. Haste-procs/uses: these types of trinkets give a temporary (on-use) increase in haste, making them very good for casters in pvp.
4. It has on-use damage or healing
Edited by Daisyx on 15/07/2012 17:06 BST
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90 Tauren Shaman
13625
The Data:

SSC/TK

Sextant of Unstable Currents - Nothing
Fel Reaver's Piston - Nothing
Tsunami Talisman - Nothing
Void Star Talisman - Overpowered because of class mechanics, this trinket made warlock pets nigh-unkillable to other casters in a time where killing warlocks pets was one of the most viable strategies against warlocks. In season 3 Fel Domination (the spell used to instantly summon a new pet) had a 15-minute cooldown
Warp-Spring Coil - Nothing
Living Root of the Wildheart - Nothing
Fel Reaver's Piston - Nothing
Earring of Soulful Meditation - Overpowered because of class mechanics, this trinket gave a +300 boost to spirit in the time that giving someone innervate was affected by his temporary spirit buffs. This meant that in teams playing feral-dpriest in 2's priests who had this trinket and would pop it just before their ferals innervate could never run oom, which was a big weakness of priests back then. This effect was found less in 3's because ferals were still very bad, however this trinket made the setup very viable in 2's.
Serpent-Coil Braid - Nothing
Tome of Fiery Redemption - Nothing
Berserker's Call - Very good because of the passive AP and the big on-use burst

BT/MH

Madness of the Betrayer - Nothing (though this was used from time to time by rogues/warriors because of the raw stat boost it gave, but nothing gamebreaking)
The Skull of Gul'dan - Overpowered because of haste proc this trinket wasn't seen very often because of how few people killed illidan, however this trinket did give an enormous advantage to people who did have it. Especially since back in tbc cc was affected by haste, making a mage trying to polly or a lock trying to fear with this prettymuch impossible to interupt. Also for those with more intimate knowledge of the TBC pvp community, this trinket was one of the only reasons why JAC was dominating the ladders.
Memento of Tyrande - Slightly overpowered, not for any of the above mentioned reasons, however this trinket made it impossible to oom resto druids (which had prettymuch infinite mana anyways, so it wasn't that gamebreaking)

SWP

Blackened Naaru Sliver - Nothing (though sometimes used for the raw stat bonus, was extremely rare because of how few people killed m'uru in TBC)
Shifting Naaru Sliver - Nothing
Glimmering Naaru Sliver- Nothing

Naxxramas

Dying Curse - Nothing
Grim Toll - Overpowered because of class mechanics, this item used to have a chance to proc ARP ( which has been removed now), ARP worked in such a way that it scaled exponentially, the more you had of it the better it would become, therefore a trinket which gave such a proc would give enormous advantages to melee-based classes (mostly warriors)
Forethought Talisman - Nothing
Bandit's Insignia - Overpowered because of damage proc, this combined with the DMF trinket or the GLG (mentioned under here) could give rogues and ferals immense damage in openers with procs.
Gnomish Lightning Generator - Overpowered because of on-use damage, teams in which all 3 of the members could use this at the same time to effectively drop someone from 50-0 very quickly, this was overpowered as hell.
Extract of Necromantic Power - Overpowered because of damage proc, this was often used by deathknights because they benefited more from the passive crit, which was useless for the other dot classes (spriest/warlock)
Soul of the Dead - Nothing
Fury of the Five Flights - Nothing
Illustration of the Dragon Soul - Sometimes used in pvp because of the raw stat boost
Mark of Norgannon - Nothing
Living Ice Crystals - This is the first trinket that goes against my general theorie, while it would have been predicted to be good (it has on-use healing) it wasn't actually used alot by my knowledge

Ulduar

Living Flame - Nothing
Wrathstone - Sometimes used for the raw burst on-demand for hunters/rogues, though wasn't perceived as game-breaking
Scale of Fates - Abit overpowered, was often used by casters (frost mages) if they could get their hands on it, though relatively rare.
Pandora's Plea - Nothing
Flare of the Heavens - Nothing
Show of Faith - Nothing
Mjolnir Runestone - This trinket used to be very overpowered because of class mechanics: it gave ARP on proc instead of crit, making it extremely good for warriors (see Grim Toll)

Trial of the Crusader

Solace of the Defeated - Overpowered because it made healers extremely hard to oom
Talisman of Volatile Power - Nothing
Death's Verdict - Overpowered because the proc made for really good burst for melee classes
Binding Light - Nothing
Reign of the Unliving - Overpowered because of chance to damage on proc
Shiny Shard of the Scale - Nothing
Shiny Shard of the Flame - Nothing

Icecrown Citadel/Ruby Sanctum

Whispering Fanged Skull - Nothing
Muradin's Spyglass - Nothing
Sliver of Pure Ice - Nothing
Tiny Abomination in a Jar - Nothing even though my theory would predict it to be overpowered (it is proc damage), the reason this wasn't overpowered was because the damage it gave was abysmal (it was really bad in pve aswell if I recall correctly)
Dislodged Foreign Object - Overpowered because of (proc) haste
Bauble of True Blood - Overpowered because of on-use heal
Althor's Abacus - Nothing
Phylactery of the Nameless Lich - Overpowered because human allowed this trinket+ dfo in a time where casters reigned supreme and it was freely available on the ATR
Sindragosa's Flawless Fang - Not overpowered but sometimes used by dk's/warriors to negate the enormous amount of burst casters had on the ATR
Deathbringer's Will - Overpowered because of long-lasting damage increase
Glowing Twilight Scale - Nothing
Charred Twilight Scale - Sometimes used by casters because of the raw stats being so much better then the (i264) pvp trinkets
Sharpened Twilight Scale - Overpowered because of massive passive ARP & good ap.

BWD/Tot4W/BoT

Jar of Ancient Remedies - Nothing
Heart of Rage - Nothing (but sometimes used because of the strength of the melee proc)
Prestor's Talisman of Machination - Nothing
Bell of Enraging Resonance - Nothing
Fall of Mortality - Nothing (though sometimes used by healers to give incredible mana regeneration)
Heart of Ignacious - Nothing (though sometimes used for the on-demand haste)
Essence of the Cyclone - Nothing (though sometimes used for the raw stat bonus)
Theralion's Mirror - Slightly overpowered, mostly because of how well frost mage burst interacts with mastery and the high chance to have it proc during the opener, but was rare enough not to cause imbalances
Crushing Weight - Nothing
Unheeded Warning - Overpowered because of class mechanics, this trinket used to give +damage on melee attacks, making it very profitable for classes with high attack speeds (ferals & rogues)
Fury of Angerforge - Overpowered because it allowed melee dps to get a big damage boost for a specific amount of time

Firelands

Vessel of Acceleration - Nothing
Variable Pulse Lightning Capacitor - Overpowered because of the chance to get proc damage
Necromantic Focus - Nothing
The Hungerer - Nothing
Matrix Restabilizer - Nothing
Jaws of Defeat - Nothing
Eye of Blazing Power - Nothing
Apparatus of Khaz'goroth - Slightly overpowered because the on-use effect could be combined with other +damage effects before it was fixed, also good because people could have long-lasting on-demand burst.

Dragon Soul

Wrath of Unchaining - Nothing
Windward Heart - Nothing
Insignia of the Corrupted Mind - Overpowered because of a chance to proc which gives haste
Starcatcher Compass - Nothing
Will of Unbinding - Nothing
Cunning of the Cruel - Overpowered because of a chance to proc damage
Heart of Unliving - Nothing
Vial of Shadows - Overpowered because of a chance to proc damage
Creche of the Final Dragon - Nothing
Seal of the Seven Signs - Nothing
Eye of Unmaking - Nothing
Resolve of Undying - Nothing
Bone-Link Fetish - Overpowered because of a chance to proc damage (though not seen as as overpowered as Vial or Cunning, this might be due to the rampancy of caster cleaves)
Edited by Daisyx on 15/07/2012 16:43 BST
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90 Tauren Shaman
13625
Conclusions

Alright, after this enormous amount of data here are my conclusions regarding what makes certain trinkets overpowered in pvp.
Almost all the data corroborates with my 4 hypothesis stated above:
1. Class mechanics: this means that a trinket interacts with a certain class mechanic very well and therefore enhances the specific class alot
2. Damage procs: this means that a trinket has the ability to cause damage as a chance on hit, this often causes alot of burst in pvp making these types of trinkets very good
3. Haste-procs/uses: these types of trinkets give a temporary increase in haste, making them very good for casters in pvp.
4. It has on-use damage or healing

Other features that causes trinkets to be sometimes considered overpowered are:
1. Trinkets that make healers much harder to oom
2. Trinkets that give (non-rogue) melee dps a big boost in damage over a relatively long period of time, these can be both passive and active
3. Trinkets that have +ap/sp on use effects
4. Trinkets that generally provide a bigger stat boost then their pvp counterparts

Recommendations to Blizzard

Drawing from the conclusions I am making a list of 8 possible features that have the possibility of making a pve trinket overpowered in pvp, along with my opinion about what blizzard should do with them
1. Class mechanics: this means that a trinket interacts with a certain class mechanic very well and therefore enhances the specific class alot
Solution: Blizzard has already solved this problem, most of the trinkets which were overpowered because of how certain classes work were around in TBC & Wotlk and have since been removed by blizzard, they made 1 more mistake in BWD but again that one was fixed pretty quickly. As long as blizzard keeps to their current design ideas, this one shouldn't be a problem.

2. Damage procs: this means that a trinket has the ability to cause damage as a chance on hit, this often causes alot of burst in pvp making these types of trinkets very good.
Solution: These type of trinkets are currently the biggest problem around, they cause rampant imbalances in pvp simply because its just such a great help to have these types of trinkets in your arena teams. The best solution would be to just stop making them, they arn't very interesting from a PvE point of view: they just give a (pretty static) amount of extra damage. I personally thought blizzard had decided to get rid of them after not having a single one since Naxxramas, but appearently they wern't. My solution therefore is: never make these type of trinkets again.

3. Haste-procs/uses: these types of trinkets give a temporary increase in haste, making them very good for casters in pvp.
Solution: This was the part of my research that surprised me the most, most on-use or on-proc trinkets barely give any imbalances, except for the ones that give haste. This is most likely because of how haste not only increases the amount of DPS in pvp, it also makes swaps faster and interupts much harder to land. My solution for this would be to stop giving haste procs/on use on caster-based trinkets. It is still fine to give them to melee trinkets, but these type of caster trinkets have a habit of being overpowered.

4. It has on-use damage or healing
Solution: This one doesn't really need a solution, the last (and only) on-demand damage trinket was season during S5 and the last on-demand healing trinket was seen in ICC. Please refrain from making them in the future though.

5. Trinkets that give healers infinite mana
Solution: This is a slippery on, considering you can't go around removing regen stats from healer trinkets since this will damage them bigtime in PvE.
My suggestion here would be to keep these type of trinkets around but be carefull with the trinkets that stack spirit up. Instead make trinkets which have a chance to proc a big amount of spirit. In pvp its hard to line those up with your regen cooldowns (Innervate, Devine Plea, Hymn of Hope, Mana Tide) so that the benefit from those trinkets is less in pvp.


6. Trinkets that give (non-rogue) melee dps a big boost in damage over a relatively long period of time, these can be both passive and active
Solution: Try to limit the amount of on-use trinkets that drop in PvE and give them from valor instead (like in DS). These type of trinkets barely cause any imbalance so as long as they are kept close enough to their pvp counterparts there shouldn't really be a problem

7. Trinkets that have +ap/sp on use effects
Solution: Again these trinkets barely cause imbalances, just keep them around and make sure that their pvp counterparts are worth buying considering the stat budget, same solution as 6.
8. Trinkets that generally provide a bigger stat boost then their pvp counterparts
Solution: Same solution as 6& 7.

Examples for such trinket designs as outlined in 6,7 & 8 would be to just make pvp power so good that pvpers wouldn't want anything else because it will be that good for damage dealing.

An alternative would be to give such massive amounts of stats on trinkets (considering pvp power & pvp defense are going to be free, they don't affect the rest of the stat budget)

Another alternative would be trinkets with chance on proc for AP/SP, passive pvp power and an on-use PvP defense. This type of trinket would have to be usable while stunned and would be a tool to provide damage incomming reduction. This increases the skillcap enormously, since it promotes people looking at the enemys and helps people who can actually see incomming burst. (Credits to the hpala on p4)

And thats it for this massive wall of text, to those who have been able to read trough all my data and think I missed or left out something, please feel free to correct me.
If you disagree with something feel free to start a discussion and I will explain my post as well as I can.
I hope blizzard does something with this in order to make pvp a more enjoyable experience for all of us.
If you have any ideas on how to make pvp trinkets more attractive so that people are more prone to pick them, feel free to contribute
Edited by Daisyx on 16/07/2012 00:58 BST
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90 Tauren Shaman
13625
I intended that all the trinkets stated above were to be links, but it turns out only 2 of them were and the rest arn't, maybe someone who is more familiar with these forums can help me do this.
If a blue could edit this post it would be amazing aswell, thanks
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14490
type [item="xxxxx" /] for items
replace xxxx with the item ID obv(seen on wowhead links)
or just click WoW item icon in post screen and input the item ID.
Edited by Vapo on 12/07/2012 17:25 BST
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14 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Amazing post.

Although all it takes is one ridiculous trinket and it can imbalance entire season; I'm sure you know that, so to effectively balance both PvE and PvP they'd have to follow every single one of your "8 point plan" at the end. Which I don't see happening; even if it is beneficial to the game.

And to be honest after reading all that, I simply came to the conclusion it'd be far to and complex to balance. As the effort you put in writing this; is probably greater than the consideration of the effect of Vial of Shadow or solace had when they implemented them.

Generally speaking; trinkets play too much of an important role in determining the outcome of matches, and the on use effects of PvP trinkets scaled far to highly in Cataclysm. If this is still the case in MoP, the biggest mistake the devs could make would be to not include the PvP Power stat on trinkets and weapons.

But ideally, if your recommendations were taken into account and actually used as a guide-line for itemization; it would be a perfect world.. of warcraft.
Edited by Clap on 12/07/2012 17:38 BST
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90 Tauren Shaman
13625
Testing to get the layout right
Edited by Daisyx on 12/07/2012 18:53 BST
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90 Tauren Shaman
13625
Aight finally figured out a way to efficiently create the links so people can compare to their own findings, will take another ~15 mins to get the entire post linked so people can compare their own experiences with mine, sorry for all the deleted posts
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The fact that PvE gear is still allowed in PvP just blows my mind...
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90 Undead Death Knight
5970
Finally a topic that's worth paying attention to...
First of all,gz on your post
To continue,we need to keep in mind that what's going on with pve trinkets dominating RBGs/Arenas is nothing new,but since cunning of the cruel was released,the situation simply became unbearable...It is rediculous how a pve oriented item can make such an impact on pvp and the reason is still unknown to me...To make things worse,hardcore pvpers,doing RBGs/Arenas all day,dont have the time/need to farm pve items so they can join a decent pve group and farm their trinkets needed...Furthermore,it is clearly retarded for a non-skilled person to top dmg meters just because he is a monster-killer lover that throws shadowbolts to everybody around without him doing NOTHING about it...
I really wish they solve this issue,its been getting worse every season and ruining the PvP oriented players experience,since pve items dominate both aspects (pve & pvp) of the game...
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90 Human Paladin
14665
I think most melee DPS used this in PvE actually. Atleast Rets and Warrs did, Rogues as well if I recall correctly.!


Na, only Ret's used it in PvP becuse it worked in a special way for Rets where the Seal could proc stacks and unleash the damage, basicly one Judgement could give you 5 stacks.

For Rogues the fast hitting weapons were teh reason it was good but that was only in PvE.

For DKs & Warriors it was close to useless as it was affected by Resiliance and 2 handers had to slow swing time to be good.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
5320
I'm pretty positive blizzard knows about the effect of the broken trinkets in pvp before implementing them. Looking at trinkets it's pretty easy to identify how overpowered they are in pvp buy just testing them for a whopping 5 minutes.

It brings me to the conclusion that these broken or overpowered trinkets are intentionally implemented.
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90 Tauren Shaman
13625
12/07/2012 20:04Posted by Thornass
Tiny Abomination in a Jar - Nothing even though my theory would predict it to be overpowered (it is proc damage), the reason this wasn't overpowered was because the damage it gave was abysmal (it was really bad in pve aswell if I recall correctly)


I think most melee DPS used this in PvE actually. Atleast Rets and Warrs did, Rogues as well if I recall correctly.

tl;dr nerf pve items!


I think the best TLDR is: some pve items have the tendancy to make imbalances in pvp so I suggest not implementing those/changing items that sometimes cause imbalances/making sure pvp trinkets are good in comparision to make pve trinkets less atractive

also as far as I remember (im not really good in pve) the only dps who used TaiaJ was indeed ret paladins (in pve) because it stacked so well
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90 Tauren Shaman
13625
after taking a look at the trinkets for the first tier in MoP, the only one that seems to fit any of my 4 criteria is http://mop.wowhead.com/item=87175 , there, I called the trinket that all casters are gonna want to get come MoP
Edited by Daisyx on 12/07/2012 20:42 BST
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85 Troll Priest
3920
How hard can it be? Just make PvE items not-usable in arena.

Also don't forget that PvE items always are higer Ilvl & PvE weapons are OP.
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85 Troll Druid
9340
It annoys me how PvPers have to do PvE to get the best in slot pvp equipment, if PvErs had to do PvP to get BiS PvE gear, there would be so much rage on these forums.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14490
4set PvP set was BiS in 4.0.1 for rets before fixes. i did arena :)
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