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The only non-casters that can topple them, as far as playable classes go, would be the Death Knights. They're pretty well-equipped with skills and spells that counter most magi and other sorts of casters - and indeed, if mages and warlocks have a true weak spot, it's them and Spellbreakers.

14/07/2012 02:01Posted by Farelar

The only non-casters that can topple them, as far as playable classes go, would be the Death Knights. They're pretty well-equipped with skills and spells that counter most magi and other sorts of casters - and indeed, if mages and warlocks have a true weak spot, it's them and Spellbreakers.

And Spell breakers, but not a lot of them around to be honest.

13/07/2012 21:43Posted by Lylise

Make mistakes, give the other person a chance.

Only a fool challenges a mage, like you said

13/07/2012 21:43Posted by Lylise

Few would be foolish enough to start a fight with a mage, and few who are that foolish would survive.

And as it is, if a person is stupid enough to challenge a mage, its his doom approaching.

On the matter of topic, there are mages who focus on longrange combat, spellcaster, fireballs, frostbolts, Frostfire, ect..

However, I specialize in Close Combat magic, Flaming sword, and enchanted battle staff that lets me channel fire magic quickly into an area, purging all my foes.

Also due to my unique fighting style, roll fights are impossible for me, since my attacks are designed to instantaneous, and without incantations that can be interrupted.

13/07/2012 21:43Posted by Lylise

do everything to avoid being the overpowered mage that you -should- be in-lore.

I'm sorry? What? I'm supposed to use a crutch just because some moron decided to challenge me in a (rp)fight? I rolled and leveled a mage, I'll be damned if i need to act like some level 5 apprentice mage who just flunked mage school just to let my opponent live for more then five seconds!

Eh, i'd say just to collect this all up...

Footman's scope

See a mage/shaman/warlock/other spellcasting class? Don't anger him/her/it with a useless reason such as: "I'm drunk, lets fight kk?"

Dont get into a fight with one.

If you do, well, plan it out with the opponent caster and hopefully he/she will see sense and actually agree with your plans not to completely tear your char apart asunder with magics.

If you accept "IC actions has IC consequences" great rather than being optional, i would say that's on your mantle but remember to consider the consequences (a.k.a grief, anger for loss etc.)

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Magi/Caster Scope

I think this needs to be said multiple times: Just because you are OP naturally does not give you the rights to be ruler of all things, the caster must remember there will be serious consequences and perhaps drawbacks for making/casting spells such as ( Drained of power, recharging, warranted for arrest/execution etc.)

Likely, the mage should just dumb it down abit for the other opponent to have a chance to take a stab at you when it comes to RP fighting, of course before RP-Fighting the caster must avoid being caught in a fight unless it is important or 'personal' to say the least.

Lastly, this needs to be made a point aswell, when RP'ing as a naturally OP class character, you should consider that you will be counted towards OOC stuff aswell, for example: When this player emtoes that he is about to destroy the person with a great amount of magic, there -must- be OOC planning before this would happen just to be fair. Therefore, the player of the caster should remain open-minded and not go into a fit of rage when someone disagree's with him/her as an attempt to keep their char alive.

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This is basically just an addition to the information already given on this type of subject.

14/07/2012 03:22Posted by Talíos

Likely, the mage should just dumb it down abit for the other opponent to have a chance to take a stab at you when it comes to RP fighting, of course before RP-Fighting the caster must avoid being caught in a fight unless it is important or 'personal' to say the least.

Ooh, no, no. no.

This is not the case, if someone deliberately try's to pick a fight with a mage, its like trying to solo a raid boss, its their OWN fault they are getting hurt, we're beings of immense power, not your average street thug you can beat up to vent your rage on.

Also, just because we are immensely powerful does not mean we are all hellbent on world domination, power means respect, and those who fail to show it, pay the price.

"With great power, comes great responsibility."

Ooh, no, no. no.

This is not the case, if someone deliberately try's to pick a fight with a mage, its like trying to solo a raid boss, its their OWN fault they are getting hurt, we're beings of immense power, not your average street thug you can beat up to vent your rage on.

Also, just because we are immensely powerful does not mean we are all hellbent on world domination, power means respect, and those who fail to show it, pay the price.

Fun fact;

Mages explode like everybody else if they step on a hidden landmine.

"With great power, comes a lot of reasons for people to think out elaborate plans for killing you."

With the right tactics, circumstance and luck, any mage can be brought low by non-magic users. Is it -likely- to happen? Probably not, spellcasters -are- formidable opponents. That said, it's still possible, and while some might say "the average fellow would die trying", there's noone forcing us to play an "average" fellow.

A street urchin could easily sprint up and bury a dagger in a mage's stomach, as an example, while he/she would -usually- die in the proccess, there's nothing saying he can't evade/dodge/jump about/get a lucky shot/magic fizzles out around him, etc.

RP fights are only as entertaining as you make them yourself, there's little to nothing that stops -anyone- from participating in RP roll fights beyond "I don't waaaaant to lose :<" and of course a general dislike for RP fights in general.

(PS; People -do- solo raidbosses, some of them -fairly- easily.)

I wouldn't recommend the Roll system, in any fights.
As long as you're around people you can trust to have realism in consideration, such is really not needed.

Very true.

But that said, it's a great "equaliser" in fight with people you -don't- know, and a way to settle fights fairly quickly.

If either side wants to convey a feeling that they're weaker than the other participant, then a roll penalty of any magnitude is easy to incorporate, without losing the complete "chance" to win.

14/07/2012 07:50Posted by Feranos

Mages explode like everybody else if they step on a hidden landmine.

Except if they're surrounded with a powerful ward - or have good reflexes and manage to blink away in time, etc. etc. But yes, like you explain, with imagination and the combination of tricks, tools, circumstances and luck, just about any character can be defeated, magic or no magic.

Problem is that the tricks we (you, me, everyone) thinks clever and effective are often only clever and effective from one's limited point of view. That's why we need those fairly independent and neutral rules to sort things out. Simply to prevent arguments about which will win, gun or plate armor, or pirate or ninja.

In this sense, when characters fight, it's irrelevant if one's wielding magic or sword. They're both player characters, protagonists in a sense, and they both have equal rights to win the fight, if both players want their character to win. If one can't accept these odds, one should find some excuse to avoid the fight altogether.

Reduced character effectiveness comes to picture with players who do want to recognize that the opponent is stronger - simply taking penalties for their own character. And no, this cannot be forced.

14/07/2012 08:28Posted by Feranos

If either side wants to convey a feeling that they're weaker than the other participant, then a roll penalty of any magnitude is easy to incorporate, without losing the complete "chance" to win.

Quite so. Using AMBC, one could choose to take just 1 hit point against the opponent's 4. If he would like to take the weakness further, he might not take Feats while the opponent is allowed to take Feats. If this is not enough, he could give himself a penalty to all his actions, such as -10 or -20. Often, just reduced hit points will do the trick, and it's the simplest solution.

"Who messes with the mages
Gets the fwoosh."

13/07/2012 22:34Posted by Waywatcher

If a shaman would rip the earth open in a public place, such as in a capital, it might offend the elements - after all powerful shamans have probably made pacts over places such as Orgimmar and Thunder Bluff. Spirits might simply not answer to his call. Or other, angered spirits might rise to oppose the shaman. Or a number of powerful local shamans might counter his efforts to maintain the balance.

You juts stated the obvious, WW. Ofcourse the situation matters, there's a great deal of difference is it a duel or a deathmatch or heck, Mak'gora, along with is it done in a city, village, or open wild/some other environment.

As for the spirit thing. As we all know most Elementals are amoral, if not all of them. (Therazane for one is not amoral.) As long as the shaman pleases them with his actions and/or promotes the said element and upholds the balance he sees right, the elements do not abandon him. I doubt a normal flame spirit would barely care of what happens to a mortal or two, fire burns because it has to. Stone eroses and breaks as it has to. Air blows and thunders as it's destined to do, and lastly,w ater churns and waves as it too, has to.

Natural talent affects the situation also. Some are more gifted than others; Shamanism is greatly different from arcane arts: You do not simply learn it, you have to have a talent to practise it, and then hone your skills. The more skilled shaman, the more likely the Elementals do his bidding.

But, this, really.

I wouldn't recommend the Roll system, in any fights.
As long as you're around people you can trust to have realism in consideration, such is really not needed.

We used to use this sort of system in Sha'tar, and it worked just fine. Mostly both sides were pleased with the outcome. Problem is most in AD do not want this because there's always the fight "hose character is more stronger", and at that point I'd recommend not to duel at all. /roll fight is indeed fair, but it takes into no account the characters story, his powers/strenghts and so on, because at the end of the day, it's all luck, not based on your characters skill at all.

Edit: Dam, didn't notice kimberly said it already.

14/07/2012 01:33Posted by Kîmberly

Personally, I see the reactions of the elements as being incredibly obvious, or perhaps that is simply because of my familiarity with that style of RP. Either way, the elements don't care about petty squabbles or people misusing their powers and they won't lift a finger to help people in these situations. They're above such mortal concerns and every shaman would do well to remember that.

14/07/2012 09:51Posted by Hërbert

As for the spirit thing. As we all know most Elementals are amoral

Aside the point. The point was that some places (such as the cities) are likely to be protected by other spirits set to guard it by powerful shamans and shamanic pacts. And the point behind this point was that there are reasons why your spellcaster can't go berzerk in many environments - if you like to admit the existence of those reasons.

The local Archmage might not do anything about some weaker spells cast in hid domain. But conjure a firestorm or an earthquake within city boundaries, and something is likely to rise up to prevent your attempts. Otherwise any bonkers-gone mage or shaman would crumble half of Stormwind every other week.

14/07/2012 09:51Posted by Hërbert

The more skilled shaman, the more likely the Elementals do his bidding.

Looking the big picture, this is true with all spellcasters. More skilled the mage (or priest, or warlock), more likely the Arcane (the Light, the Fel) is to do his bidding.

Just methods and flavors are different, really.

14/07/2012 10:31Posted by Waywatcher

The point was that some places (such as the cities) are likely to be protected by other spirits set to guard it by powerful shamans and shamanic pacts

I doubt there are such. Cities are guarded by guards, walls and guard dogs and alike, not by some runes & magics. Now, as we all know, Spirits do not residue in one said place, unless chained or otherwise forced to stay there, and It's quite hard for me to believe that some shamans would have chained the said spirits around the city to reinforce runes/other magics.

I haven't seen any of them inside the game either. The only protection cities have are their denizens, guards, airguard and walls. Imho.

14/07/2012 10:31Posted by Waywatcher

Looking the big picture, this is true with all spellcasters. More skilled the mage (or priest, or warlock), more likely the Arcane (the Light, the Fel) is to do his bidding.

Wrong. Arcane isn't a spirit or a personality or anything in between. It's just raw, pure energy that can be harnessed in many different forms, such as Fel, Fire, Ice or conjuration. It's not about "Will the arcane do the casters bidding", but rather "Is the caster capable of wielding it?". The unlimited power is already there, ready to be used, whereas in Shamanism you have to have talent and training to gather similar power, whereas a novice mage can already tap into Arcane energies and cause a huge explosion of uncontrolled arcane, most likely killing himself. In short, this is the difference: Shaman has to build up power, mage has to learn how to use it without dying in the process.

As for light and Shadow, these powers obey the user if the persons faith is right and they see that they're doing the right thing, the light and shadow will do the bidding, even if the act would be horrible. Benedictus is a good example of this. It's not about training, it's about natural talent & faith. Training and skill are sub-parts of this power. Sometimes when shaman would attempt to call elements to do his bidding to decimate a enemy for example, they might not help for lord knows what reason, but Light and shadow -always- obey, if the person sees that he's doing the right thing.

There's a great difference in these magic users, they're barely the same.

Edit: Source: http://www.wowpedia.org/Arcane
http://www.wowpedia.org/Light
http://www.wowpedia.org/Cult_of_the_Forgotten_Shadow

I don't know where people thinking mages so overpowered is from.

Classes in WoW are not that different from each other - oh, that's mechanics?

It was never any different elsewhere in Warcraft lore. Take WC3 for instance. Sorcerers, Priests, Shaman, Witch Doctors etc etc etc were not so powerful. They died just fine, often from just one non-hero melee unit, such as a Knight or Tauren.

I don't think anything has really changed. Between cast times, dodging, resists, blocks, simply not one hit KO'ing people, the mage's lack of armour, silences, managing mana, and all that jazz, mages are very easily defeated in a one vs one, rolls included.

After reading this thread. I feel soooooooooooooooo invincible. >:)

13/07/2012 22:17Posted by Hërbert

he -could- just tear the land asunder, throw molten lava at enemies faces and make wind blow so harshly that it knocks down even a kodo, and lightning striking down like a killing machine.

I think that fighting as Shaman is a little easier actually, as you have to remember that the elements/spirits/ancestors may just say 'no' and refuse to help you.

But yes, most of my magic-using characters do not actively seek fights - one or two are actual pacifists. The ones that do fight a lot, I just tend to moderate. My mages have nowhere near the power of mages from the lore.

14/07/2012 12:55Posted by Kelvain

I don't know where people thinking mages so overpowered is from.

This entire topic changes from time to time, and the real conclusion I come to is that it depends on too many factors to settle a simple "How-to" guide. We have to take account the mage in question, his/her skill, the opponent's own competence, positioning, physical and mental health, their outfits (armour), even the weather plays into part.

But the fact remains that a mage is a highly volatile and effective combatant if versed properly in the arts, and effectively serves as a one-man artillery piece. The implication that they must be glass cannons however is arguably right or wrong. It doesn't take sixty years and physical deterioration to teach a mage enough spells to invoke destruction over a group of enemies.

What does require consideration is that all elements of the world play into part. If the mage is standing on a wobbly cobblestone and a passerby makes it tip, or someone throws a pebble his way, it can be more than enough to fling the spell all wrong. These are the drawbacks a mage suffers from more than 'hey, you're a mage, you must be a hundred year old rickety cripple'.

It's mostly up to the mage playing his part responsibly than anything else to my eyes. Personally to combat this issue I roleplay Eicarus as a sorcerer (hedge-wizard or rogue magi if you so prefer), a mage who was not tutored properly by academic study but rather in practical magic by a family member and mentor.

This in my eyes allow Eicarus a much larger margin of error, and it is more probable in his case to have a spell fail or misfire compared to a proper mage. And when they do succeed, they are generally much less precise. I advise mage roleplayers to consider the same.

And, to finish:

"An ostler has a mood and he kicks the dog. A mage has his moods and a town disappears." - Anduin Lothar


EDIT: Furthermore, the following thread has a few answers you may want to look into.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3483960256?page=1

I wouldn't recommend the Roll system, in any fights.
As long as you're around people you can trust to have realism in consideration, such is really not needed.

And when you're not, a roll system is better than god emoting and the subsequent argument but still not as good as not having to use one.

Me and my friend once played two rather hapless Magi, a Dwarf and a Human. The two were actually comedic characters, however, when we played them there was a time when an actual situation arose. As wannabe peacekeepers (We'd just applied to join the local guards), we spent a good couple of quotes charging up an Arcane Bolt. In this, we gave fair warning of that should this continue to happen, the charge will grow stronger, and be quite strong (We were both feeding into it, as the pair loved to do joint ventures). In effect, we shot it off after about 6 or 7 emotes, and it worked out well. Just so happened we were ignored (Icly, as he was busy fending off other guards) until we could let it off.

Another fun thing that we did was when threatened, my character would spit out a horrible warning of using the terrible fiery inferno of terribly atrocious doom. This build up would happen but in the end, their haplessness lead to him letting out a "fart" of hot air from his finger which did nothing.

^ This isn't me saying this is how you should play a mage, but I'm more suggesting that this way of playing one was highly enjoyable. But I generally agree with this charging idea. It charges in game so why not? Logic and reason are the Roleplayers greatest tools.