LFR and Normal should share lockout.

90 Draenei Priest
BiS
12670
What is the reason of LFR and normal difficulty not sharing lockout? When 10 and 25 were combined, one of the arguments was that running same content multiple times per week causes faster burnout. Those who were around during ToC (I was not) talked horror stories about clearing same boring room four times every week (have alts? Mua-haha, go there again). And had a breath of fresh air when they went back to Ulduar for Val’anyr. Now, we have same story, but not 10 and 25, but Normal and LFR.

“you don’t have to run it” – I do, and especially in MoP. While heroic FL items were better than average DS LFR, t13 set bonuses for some specs were too good to ignore. Trinkets from spine were better than most FL stuff. So we had to do LFR for some time, because that damn glove token never dropped. But in Mists there is a huge gap in item level between 5man heroics and normal raids. It is ok, and I am pretty sure we will kill most of MV bosses during second week even in blues, but when it come about last boss or heroic progress later, enrage timers will surely become an issue. So we will have to do LFR that will be released exactly week after normal. Meh... Saying that LFR is not mandatory for beating content (edit: faster than those you are competing with) is almost the same as saying “you do not need to get fire resistance gear for Molten Core”.

“you get same bonuses from normal and LFR” – yes, but with LFR I increase my chances to get the set bonus. If I want to see myself in the upper part of my realm’s wowprogress page, I have to maximize my performance. We cannot ask every serious guild on server not to use LFR.

“but making LFR share lockout will increase queue time” – well, there are lot of dead realms, that’s why Blizz improves xrealm stuff. Why not make LFR to queue people from several battlegroups?

“but without some competent people in LFR, casuals with low skill level will wipe and be frustrated” – just put more nerfs, that is not a problem. Make morchok stomp only a knockback, make yor’sahj purple debuff to stack up to 10, slow hagara ice walls, etc. Those who go to LFR to see content and/or get free purple loot will be happy anyway, they came not for a challenge.

I am no way a veteran player. I joined during late Wrath, and was in a casual guild until mid-t11. However, I read lot of stuff about old days. Consumables grind was not fun and it was removed in TBC. Resistance fights were not fun, and they were removed in WotLK. World buffs were not fun, and they were nerfed or abolished. Attunements were not fun, and they were removed. Four times per week ToC was considered to be worst raid ever (worse than Ulduar and ICC at least), so it became twice per week in t10 and once per week in Cata. I am not generalizing, some people preferred grind, resistances, attunements etc. However, the direction game is moving during last 5 years can be summarized as ”serious raiding success should be more based on player skill, not time spent on tedious stuff for preparation”. So, now we have LFR as a semi-mandatory raid preparation timesink. Why we have to do tedious things (LFR) to be competitive in fun things (Norm/Heroic raid)? Why LFR is a path of progress?
Edited by Myshkka on 02/08/2012 21:07 BST
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90 Night Elf Hunter
6450
no. this doesnt solve the problem of feeling like Normal players need LFR tier bonuses. all it means is they gear from LFR then do normal a week later, or spend far too long in LFR trying to get the gear without raiding normal.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10775
All that would do would mean that no decent players would ever do lfr, only the cupcakes who can't grasp the simplest of mechanics, which would in turn mean that pretty much all lfr groups would fail in clearing the instances.
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3 Human Mage
0
02/08/2012 20:39Posted by Madahunt
no. this doesnt solve the problem of feeling like Normal players need LFR tier bonuses. all it means is they gear from LFR then do normal a week later, or spend far too long in LFR trying to get the gear without raiding normal.


I doubt it given that they can no longer abuse the looting system in RF by practising loot collusion. No longer possible to ensure your tanks get 4-sets in one or two runs.

Also why would a guild run RF for a week and do normal? Are they mediocre bads or something?

Any so called hardcore guild worth a damn will be able to faceroll Normal in week one. So why would they do RF if the lockout was shared?
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3 Human Mage
0
02/08/2012 21:22Posted by Namari
All that would do would mean that no decent players would ever do lfr, only the cupcakes who can't grasp the simplest of mechanics, which would in turn mean that pretty much all lfr groups would fail in clearing the instances.


Keyboard turning spell clicking nub here.

Topped the meters week after week on all toons.

Where were the "decent players"? I never saw them.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
12310
02/08/2012 21:23Posted by Stinkyedita
All that would do would mean that no decent players would ever do lfr, only the cupcakes who can't grasp the simplest of mechanics, which would in turn mean that pretty much all lfr groups would fail in clearing the instances.


Keyboard turning spell clicking nub here.

Topped the meters week after week on all toons.

Where were the "decent players"? I never saw them.
And even if LFR will fail because all the good raiders don't run it, it'll simply have to be nerfed to the level of the target audience.
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90 Human Paladin
6440
I have to disagree with this.

It seems everytime WoW gives you a choice in this game people want to stamp it out. Yes you can do both LFR and a normal/herioc raid in the same week but no one if forcing you.

If you do not want to get burnt out then simply only run one of the other. problem solved?
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85 Dwarf Death Knight
8130
The thing is, while i despise the current tuning of LFR, forcing a shared lockout with normal in my opinion is not the best solution. Personally i would like LFR loot reduced to heroic dungeon levels, even lower to reflect the difficulty reduction but i try to meet people half way on suggestions, and for normal and heroic modes to have some exclusive content not available on LFR, such as an extra boss or bosses with extra phases.

02/08/2012 21:55Posted by Zalandar
Yes you can do both LFR and a normal/herioc raid in the same week but no one if forcing you.


Aside from the idea that part of taking part in raids is the pre-raid preparation, and LFR loot being too good to ignore while simultaneously ruining raid content, the main issue i have with this argument is the inconsistency from blizz. If this wasnt acceptable 2 years ago, why should it be now?

On a marginally related topic, if it is acceptable now, why not give 10 and 25 man raids seperate lockouts, and have LFR share a loot lock (not neccessarily a raid lock however) with either 10 or 25 man raids? That way if raiders are forced to grind content repeatedly, they could try a normal pug raid, or go through LFR, without having to run the raid more than twice a week?
Edited by Volrag on 02/08/2012 22:32 BST
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85 Draenei Shaman
3990
All that would do would mean that no decent players would ever do lfr, only the cupcakes who can't grasp the simplest of mechanics, which would in turn mean that pretty much all lfr groups would fail in clearing the instances.


You know this is about 70% of the playerbase right?

This is one of the easiest options Blizz could do. You want to raid and not put effort in? (Grinding). Here is your raid. Choose your difficulty. Easy / Normal / Hard.

Ignoring all the "race to the finish" guilds, im sure it would end up being. Run LFR till your happy with your gear to pug normal. Run normal until your happy with your gear to pug HC.

Before you say, this won't "eventually" make LFR useless because people will still run it on alts or even goto it if they don't get a raid spot in the guild and don't want to pug.

Yeah, they added shared lockouts as people were "burned out". This was back when you wouldn't clear the raid in 3hrs right? Remember in TBC and Wrath, sometimes you would just get to boss 3 etc and have boss 1 and boss 2 on farm and was actually pleased/proud of yourselves and the guild? Now its a case of cleared and bored for the rest of the week. I don't understand how you can be burned out with 3hrs work/effort.
Edited by Scrolls on 03/08/2012 01:02 BST
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85 Draenei Shaman
10350
02/08/2012 21:55Posted by Zalandar
It seems everytime WoW gives you a choice in this game people want to stamp it out.
But here's the thing. It's not a choice. If you take raiding serious, as do the vast majority of guilds progressing in heroic modes (even if they don't clear them within the time they are "current"), there are a few things you have to do. It's not just "turn up for the raid and just be one of those 10/25 boxes on the healer's screen". You must have a minimum performance. You must have enchants. You must have reforges. You must have gems. You must have a proper spec.

Saying that LFR is a choice is like saying that enchanting and gemming is a choice. Yes, it is when you see it absolutely objectively, but what raid leader who doesn't want to spend his online time wiping on bosses because the rest in his group didn't bother to improve their character would accept someone like that?

There was a thread some time ago that used the word "compelled". That's what's happening. We are compelled to run LFR because we need the gear. That gear will improve the performance of the raid, which leads to faster boss killing, and even if you do not care at all about realm ranking, it means less frustration wiping.

Now you'll say "So then why not do it and shut up?". Well, the thing is, the implementation of LFR as it is in T13, and as it seems to be in T14, means that not only will we be running the same content twice, which leads to the so-called "faster burning out", but it also grants raiders better gear, which allows them to progress into content faster, which leads to raids being cleared within 2-3 weeks from their release.

If you have read some other threads, I am not against the idea of LFR, I am against it granting so good bonuses. As Volrag said earlier, it granting gear that was on par with 5man heroic would help for the longevity of the content. At the same time, it wouldn't lock out the target audience from using it.
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90 Worgen Druid
18385
02/08/2012 21:22Posted by Stinkyedita
Also why would a guild run RF for a week and do normal? Are they mediocre bads or something?

Any chance to get an upgrade is better than no chance. A player concerned about his/her effort to the raid will, if must be, change professions, grind dailies, kill repetitious mobs for a 2% drop or go into LFR with 2 chances of winning an upgrade.

As it is, I don't think a shared lockout would be the best for the game nor its players. Instead the gear should be on par with heroic 5mans.
Edited by Nuvielle on 03/08/2012 02:12 BST
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85 Night Elf Priest
7080
03/08/2012 01:00Posted by Scrolls
I don't understand how you can be burned out with 3hrs work/effort.


My 10 alts in raid-worthy gear say hello.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
15355
I do not even understand why there is need of LFR and normal share lockouts as its the actual raiders carrying the rest trough anyway ? What exactly is your motivation of such .. .how to say it politely ... not smart and narrow-minded idea ?
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37 Blood Elf Rogue
12300
I'd love to see the poor state of LFR groups after this were implemented. You think the player base is getting dumber now, wait to see what happens when bads don't even have the opportunity to learn from half decent players.
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90 Human Paladin
6440
After reading some responces i can tottally uneerstand where you are coming from.

03/08/2012 02:00Posted by Exiasee
Saying that LFR is a choice is like saying that enchanting and gemming is a choice. Yes, it is when you see it absolutely objectively, but what raid leader who doesn't want to spend his online time wiping on bosses because the rest in his group didn't bother to improve their character would accept someone like that?


Totally agree with this.

02/08/2012 22:32Posted by Volrag
On a marginally related topic, if it is acceptable now, why not give 10 and 25 man raids seperate lockouts, and have LFR share a loot lock (not neccessarily a raid lock however) with either 10 or 25 man raids? That way if raiders are forced to grind content repeatedly, they could try a normal pug raid, or go through LFR, without having to run the raid more than twice a week?


Also agree with this.

I do personally hate LFR as the venom that people talk really hurts my experiance of the game. People who go afk, the gogoers and my fav the ones who start an encounter when raid group is not full all really grind me.

saying that what can Blizz do to keep 'everyone' happy?
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90 Human Paladin
7900
03/08/2012 10:26Posted by Zalandar
saying that what can Blizz do to keep 'everyone' happy?


Simple enough - create content that satisfies everybody. It isn't as hard, time consuming or expensive as they would have us think.

As to the OP, the reason is obvious. Blizzard say that LFR is designed for the huge numbers of casual players who would like to raid but don't have the time to do organised raiding. Now I bought into this at first, but now I think it's completely wrong. Looking at how LFR has developed over the last ten months or so, it's clear that it was initially populated largely by raiders, the runs were very smooth back then. Then it was populated largely by their alts, you might have had the odd wipe but was generally fine. Now it's populated by the genuine casuals and there are wipes a plenty and huge queue times.

I now think that there aren't anywhere near the number of non-raiders actually wanting LFR and Blizzard needs to incentivise raiders to run it for:

a) shorter queue times
b) smoother runs. LFR may be a joken as compared to proper raiding, but you still need the sort of tactics that you don't get in the HoT 5-mans.
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90 Draenei Priest
BiS
12670
03/08/2012 02:12Posted by Nuvielle
As it is, I don't think a shared lockout would be the best for the game nor its players. Instead the gear should be on par with heroic 5mans.
Well, casuals often think that acquiring better gear is a way to improve their toon. So LFR had to offer some better reward than 5man loot, because it is just more epic to beat some ??-level boss than 87-lvl boss. Also reducing something now is not an option for devs. Rage will flow.

03/08/2012 09:55Posted by Hurtz
I'd love to see the poor state of LFR groups after this were implemented. You think the player base is getting dumber now, wait to see what happens when bads don't even have the opportunity to learn from half decent players.
LFR teaches anyone? News to me. It is good to practice rotation, target switching and cooldown usage in action, but if someone thinks about his rotation he is already not that bad and will improve. Even in 5mans there is more opportunity to learn, as another party member can give an advice becasue he is interested in smoother run. In LFR you are mr.Nothing.

03/08/2012 10:34Posted by Thete
As to the OP, the reason is obvious. Blizzard say that LFR is designed for the huge numbers of casual players who would like to raid but don't have the time to do organised raiding. Now I bought into this at first, but now I think it's completely wrong. Looking at how LFR has developed over the last ten months or so, it's clear that it was initially populated largely by raiders, the runs were very smooth back then. Then it was populated largely by their alts, you might have had the odd wipe but was generally fine. Now it's populated by the genuine casuals and there are wipes a plenty and huge queue times.
It is a matter of balancing. Current LFR is balanced around having, say, 30% raiders, 40% casuals and 30% bads. Raiders are gone now, so groups fail. If raiders will not have any reason to continiously farm LFR in the first place, then it could be balanced around 5% raiders, 55% casuals and 40% bads. And queue time can be reduced by region-wide queue instead of battlegroup-wide.

Maybe Blizzard thinks that it is less evil to make, say, 5% of subscibers (semi-hardcore raiders) upset than to leave 25% of subscribers (casuals, quite a lot of which are clueless and ignorant) without a boost. Anyway, i hope this little discussion will be a part of what make devs to eventually reconsider forcing us into raid finder.
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90 Undead Rogue
12630
It is a matter of balancing. Current LFR is balanced around having, say, 30% raiders, 40% casuals and 30% bads. Raiders are gone now, so groups fail. If raiders will not have any reason to continiously farm LFR in the first place, then it could be balanced around 5% raiders, 55% casuals and 40% bads. And queue time can be reduced by region-wide queue instead of battlegroup-wide.

Maybe Blizzard thinks that it is less evil to make, say, 5% of subscibers (semi-hardcore raiders) upset than to leave 25% of subscribers (casuals, quite a lot of which are clueless and ignorant) without a boost. Anyway, i hope this little discussion will be a part of what make devs to eventually reconsider forcing us into raid finder.
Funny enough i count more than 100 Guild in wotlk 25/10 man and many others very casuals.
Right now i count,.....4-6 guilds still raidin...
So my server was kinda unique? having 90% raiders quiting ^^
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85 Dwarf Death Knight
8130
03/08/2012 10:26Posted by Zalandar
saying that what can Blizz do to keep 'everyone' happy?


A number of things:

1. Stop implementing things stupidly
2. Stop forcing all the content down everyones throats.
3. Start wipping the dev team into shape, dragon soul on both a design and implementation level is just embarassing.
4. Follow point 1 again.
5. Dont use bull!@#$ marketing to make up the fact you cant be arsed to develop a patch properly.
6. If you insist on shoving story down our throats, try to make it a decent story please.

Well thats the immediate list i can think of off the top of my head.

03/08/2012 09:55Posted by Hurtz
You think the player base is getting dumber now, wait to see what happens when bads don't even have the opportunity to learn from half decent players.


To be honest, screw them. If they cant be arsed to learn to play their class (not like any class is over burdened with complexity to play at least reasonably well), cant be arsed to treat their gear properly or learn even the simplest of tactics, then they dont deserve to see the content. Now when i read this paragraph back it seemed a bit harsh, then i remembered the insultingly easy tuning of LFR and to fail at LFR simply means too many people are taking the piss.

That said, a bit more player training wouldn't go amiss, neither would easily accessible content that is tuned more difficultly to help people improve.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
11435
03/08/2012 22:20Posted by Volrag
To be honest, screw them. If they cant be arsed to learn to play their class (not like any class is over burdened with complexity to play at least reasonably well), cant be arsed to treat their gear properly or learn even the simplest of tactics, then they dont deserve to see the content. Now when i read this paragraph back it seemed a bit harsh, then i remembered the insultingly easy tuning of LFR and to fail at LFR simply means too many people are taking the piss.


You do realize that the statement goes against Ghostcrawler's last statement that everyone is allowed to see the content. Not that you should take that statement for granted seeing as it seems to change with every patch.

I do however agree with you that people should spend more time learning the basic pros and cons of their classes, why Blizzard has not implemented a system to learn people their abilities and spells yet is beyond me.
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