Topic The Solution, Segregation is Key
Cake
Ravenholdt
Cake
86 Undead Mage
10240
Edited by Cake on 11/08/12 19:13 (BST)
Before I begin what will no doubt be a massive wall of text; I would like to request anyone who is content with the direction WoW is currently heading, please know the proposed changes (if ever implemented, however unlikely) would in no way, shape or form effect how you play the game.

The main inspiration for this post came from the recently released figures of the last quarter, where a staggering 1.1 million subscribers were lost.

The fact that the last quarter ended over a month ago means the lost subs is probably closer to 1.5 million by now.

This got me thinking. I've been playing WoW since vanilla all the way to Cata and immensely enjoyed my time playing.
During WotLK my experience began to sour slightly with the host of new “features” that was introduced and the design philosophy Blizzard was taking with the game.
My hopes were raised with Cata with the rhetoric that raids and HC's were going to be hard again. While I enjoyed the beginning of Cata, the problems from WotLK carried over into the expansion and I began losing interest again. Shortly after DS and LFR was released, I was unsubbed.

So, I thought to myself, what would it take to get me back into the game? But far more importantly, what would it take to get me back into the game that Blizzard could easily implement and that did not conflict with their current design philosophy?

The proposed idea was quite simple and would be ridiculously easy to implement.

Heroic Realms. Similar in how there are PvE and PvP realms, there needs to be a recognized distinction between those who merely wish to see the content and... well, I don't want to say hardcore as it seems to have garnered negative connotations lately, but those seeking a challenge.

But distinction is not the only thing required in my opinion, there needs to be segregation. Forcing the two groups together is just festering deep resentment by both sides. It would be like forcing those from PvE realms and those from PvP realms to play on the same server.

I know some people are going to read into this as another thread asking for vanilla or TBC realms, but there's a distinct difference. HC realms would be identical to current realms content and update wise, just the removal of certain “features”.

The usual excuse of people would get bored of vanilla / TBC realms or the cost of sustaining two development teams obviously does not apply.

Normal Realms

  • Identical to current retail. It allows people who do not have the time, mindset or skills to see the content they pay for.


  • Heroic Realms

  • No LFG or limited to realm only. Perhaps like the early version of LFG like in TBC; where you simply list what dungeon you are looking for and what rolls you fill, and then you could browse this list.
    People would whisper you and form groups manually, filling the role of the tool that it was originally intended for; I.e forming connections with people so that you had friends to run with and no longer had to rely on the LFG tool.
    Once the group is made, no teleports either, you have to travel either in pairs or in a group to the dungeon to use the summon stone.

  • No LFR.

  • Removal of badge / valour points. Obviously, this would mean no more gear vendors (apart from reputation vendors), which in turn means no more one tier of current content. No more gear resets.

  • Linear raid progression, which the above point would solve.

  • A return to targeted nerfs aimed at specific boss/add health pools and fight mechanics instead of the current model of scheduled accumulative percentage nerfs across all bosses in a given raid instance.

  • No “optional” buffs in raids, such as the 30% DS or ICC zone wide buff.

  • No gating.

  • Perhaps a flat increase in world mobs damage by 100% or maybe even 200%. I'd say bring back real elites and group quests, but I'm trying to keep to suggestions that require almost no extra developer time.

  • Disabled flying mounts for the majority of zones. Obviously areas that can only be reached by flying mounts are exempt.

  • Character transfer restrictions. Like it used to be with PvE and PvP realms, those who leveled on a normal server would be unable to transfer to a HC server.

  • No heirlooms.


  • Benefits

  • Easy to implement. It would require zero extra development time as you will only be removing “features” of convenience.

  • There are so many dead servers it would take a minuscule amount of effort on Blizzards part to re-purpose these realms into the proposed HC realms. Thus, no expense of setting up new servers.

  • Segregation of the casual and hardcore would end much of the complaints from both sides. Those who fall in the middle ground have the option of remaining on normal servers where they can turn off the “optional” buffs, ect.



  • Essentially, this would bring back some world PvP and the early TBC raid progression for HC realms. Obviously those who did not like the linear raid system are free to remain on the normal realms.

    I cannot speak for anyone else, but I can say with some certainty if heroic realms were introduced at the start of Cata, I would still be subbed.
    I would probably be progressing through firelands at this point in time, with DS to look forward too when we finally cleared Raggy. As you can tell, I am in no way a hardcore raider.
    I do not mind that I will not be constantly at the cutting edge of raiding and stepping into new raids the moment they are released. Just because I will not see new raids until a few months (maybe more), after they are released does not make the content any less special or interesting.

    This is, of course, completely contrary to Blizzards current design philosophy.

    Though after watching beta videos of MoP and reading about the “features” they are introducing, I honestly doubt even the introduction of HC realms would be able to retain my subscription. I would hope to be pleasantly surprised, but throwing away talent trees in MoP for what is essentially the same system they are using in Diablo 3 is a giant leap in the wrong direction, among many other things. But that is a topic for a different thread.

    I would also like to pre-empt some common replies that seem to inevitability get copy-pasted when someone asks for more challenging content, which is what this essentially is.

  • Special Snowflake + variations.

  • There is nothing wrong with wanting to be unique, inside a game or out of it. I've never understood why people look for ways to belittle others who strive to be the best they can possibly be.

  • Lost subs are down to the game being old, not the design philosophy.

  • Everquest is old as sin and is still going strong. Eve online was released long before WoW and has never stopped growing, despite it's rather glacial pace of feature addition. Age of the game is not a valid excuse for lost subscribers or poor design decisions.


  • You grew up.

  • This I assume is mainly posted by the younger generation. When I began playing WoW I was 20, an adult in the eyes of almost every country in the world. The majority of people I have interacted with over the past years have been equal or older than myself. I am now 26, married and have a job. My passion for WoW still remains, though just a dull ember rather than the raging inferno it once was. Peoples interest or enthusiasm does not fade when they reach some magical age that constitutes growing up, else my 40+ year old acquaintances would like a word.


  • If you do not like it, leave.

  • While this is pants on head retarded and I want to throttle those that say this, the sad fact is people are doing just this, as indicated by the subscriber losses. Also, I have left, this is perhaps the last real effort I'll spend on anything WoW related.


  • Why do you care what other people do? It does not effect you!

  • This is perhaps the strongest argument I have heard against the constant nerfs in the game so people can “see the content”, as ironic as it sounds. Exactly that, why do you care that dedicated raiders or the hardcore guilds are clearing tier 13 while you are still half way through tier 11? You will see the content eventually, at your own pace, just not as fast as those who dedicate more time and effort into raiding.



    Well, this is the end of my rather long winded post. Apologies for any inconsistency or errors, insomnia is one hell of a drug. When the mild hallucinations begin, you know it is time to concede defeat and take the damn pills.


    Please feel free to make suggestions, negative or positive and I will edit them in. All criticism is welcome, as long as it is constructive. Thanks for reading.


    Edit: I cannot believe you need to have a current subscription to be able to merely post on the forums. I have bitten the bullet and brought a single months sub, but this will undoubtedly be the last time I pay for WoW unless there is some major changes. I did not even use all the free week I got from the scroll of resurrection... I suppose I can use the time to collect the last shards in ICC and pick up a frostmourne.
    Neshgar
    Defias Brotherhood
    Neshgar
    85 Orc Death Knight
    5605
    I rly like the idea and was was thinking about this to.
    but u forget about looms ^^

    cheers see u on HC realm, hehe
    Lurkalot
    Thunderhorn
    Lurkalot
    63 Blood Elf Death Knight
    4790
    I do believe this was posted about last week.
    Zainstorm
    Nagrand
    Zainstorm
    90 Dwarf Hunter
    16880
    Heroic Realms

    No LFG or limited to realm only. Perhaps like the early version of LFG; where you simply list what dungeon you are looking for and what rolls you fill, and then you could browse this list. People would whisper you and form groups manually, filling the role of the tool that it was originally intended for; I.e forming connections with people so that you had friends to run with and no longer had to rely on the LFG tool.

    No LFR.

    Removal of badge / valour points. Obviously, this would mean no more gear vendors (apart from reputation vendors), which in turn means no more one tier of current content. No more gear resets.

    Linear raid progression, which the above point would solve.

    No raid nerfs beyond balancing and tuning.

    No “optional” buffs in raids.

    No gating.

    Perhaps a flat increase in world mobs damage by 100% or maybe even 200%. I'd say bring back real elites and group quests, but I'm trying to keep to suggestions that require almost no extra developer time.

    Disabled flying mounts for the majority of zones. Obviously areas that can only be reached by flying mounts are exempt.

    Character transfer restrictions. Like it used to be with PvE and PvP realms, those who leveled on a normal server would be unable to transfer to a HC server.


    Remove flying mounts why? There is nothing Heroic about removing flying mounts. There is a difference between spending time and difficulty.

    Finally you also forgot for HC realms:
    -Harder to Level up
    -Attunments for Raids.

    Except that, this idea ain't half bad.
    Cake
    Ravenholdt
    Cake
    86 Undead Mage
    10240
    Edited by Cake on 03/08/12 20:30 (BST)
    03/08/2012 20:13Posted by Zainstorm
    Remove flying mounts why? There is nothing Heroic about removing flying mounts. There is a difference between spending time and difficulty.


    It is mainly an attempt to bring back world pvp. I have fond memories of the unplanned small skirmishes that broke out when 2 opposing groups met while riding along a road, that sometimes blew over into zone wide open warfare.

    Since the introduction of flying mounts, I have never seen anything even remotely similar.

    In my opinion, they make the game a little too easy. Too easy to farm mats, too easy to travel, shrinks the world, ect.

    It's a slippery slope, it went from ground mounts, to flying mounts, to teleporting directly into dungeons.

    Finally you also forgot for HC realms:
    -Harder to Level up
    -Attunments for Raids.


    Well, as I stated earlier I am trying to get my suggestions that require addition developer time to an absolute minimum. Sadly attunements fall under that category, though I would love to see them returned.

    And about it being harder to level up;

    Perhaps a flat increase in world mobs damage by 100% or maybe even 200%. I'd say bring back real elites and group quests, but I'm trying to keep to suggestions that require almost no extra developer time.


    Being realistic, if this was ever implemented a flat increase in world mob health / damage would be the best we could hope for. Perhaps if the HC realms proved to be a success, they might consider adding elites + group quests back into the game. Alas.
    Zazkya
    Nagrand
    Zazkya
    85 Gnome Mage
    1740
    Before I begin what will no doubt be a massive wall of text; I would like to request anyone who is content with the direction WoW is currently heading, please do not read beyond this point.


    So, you wrote this post only for people who agree with you ?

    Hm, Blizzard likes the way WOW is going, so no Blizzard poster should read beyond the point
    I've quoted.

    Okay.
    Cake
    Ravenholdt
    Cake
    86 Undead Mage
    10240
    Edited by Cake on 12/08/12 04:02 (BST)
    So, you wrote this post only for people who agree with you ?

    Hm, Blizzard likes the way WOW is going, so no Blizzard poster should read beyond the point
    I've quoted.

    Okay.



    No, I wrote this post for people dissatisfied with the direction WoW is taking; if you had continued reading the following sentence, you would have found the following.


    The purposed changes (if ever implemented, however unlikely) would in no way, shape or form effect how you play the game.



    Perhaps if you had actually read my post...


    03/08/2012 19:01Posted by Cake
    Please feel free to make suggestions, negative or positive and I will edit them in. All criticism is welcome, as long as it is constructive. Thanks for reading.


    Edit: adding some common arguments I do not feel are valid here, due to the 10,000 character limit on the original post.

    I would like to offer a clear opinion on why some of the common arguments against HC realms are at best non-applicable or at worse factually wrong.


  • It would take too much developer time to rebalance every single mob for a HC server.

  • The technology is already in place. Pre-cata launch, they applied a straight -30% HP / damage nerf to every single mob in the game.
    It would be take zero effort to increase mob damage instead of reduce, though merely reverting the unneeded massive nerf would probably sufficient for many people.


  • Removal of gear vendors.

  • A simple line of code and they would gone.

    Gear that was only obtainable via said vendors would simply be added to the loot table of a boss of the same tier.

    It would require zero extensive testing or a complete rebalance of class abilites, as someone claimed a few dozen pages back.


  • Removal of LFG / LFR.

  • Again, a few lines of code and they are gone.

    They are both disabled in the PTR realm, so it is more than probable that Blizzard has a toggle for them anyway.

    Edit: I would just like to also remind people, if HC realms went ahead and implemented a linear raid system and no more LFG / gear vendors, you would literally only be running dungeons at the start of your raiding career. There would be no more running dungeons every week all through the entire expansion for points.

    Literally you would either be running it for the gear that actually drops there, or to farm rep for faction vendors.

    Probably after a month, maybe sooner, most people would no longer need to step foot in another dungeon outside of fun or helping a friend gear.


  • Only a small minority would use HC realms, making them infeasible financially.

  • Impossible to make this claim as no one knows how many would actually play on a HC realm.

    Blizzard, unlike many seem to think, only have data regarding who does what in game, not how they feel or their desires.
    In actual fact, the only way Blizzard has any idea outside the forum into what people feel is when they quit and they can choose the reason why.
    The downside to this is obviously those discontent but still subbed are unable to voice their opinion, unless they come on the forum of course, to which I understand there is quite number of complaint threads.

    For example, I run cross-realm LFG but I hate it. Due to aggressive incentives to use LFG such as extra XP, gold and random items, it is almost impossible to find a realm group. According to Blizzards data, just because I am running LFG regularly it is a success and I am content.


  • You have the tools to create a HC realm by yourself on a dead server.

  • The same argument could be said for role players. They could could create RP guilds on normal realms, they have all the tools available to do so themselves. But again, having no centralized realm specificity for a group of players would have them spread out over hundreds of realms and make finding RP like-minded people nigh impossible.

    Also people outside the small RP community of a normal realm would be in no way expected to RP in turn. Forcing the RP'ers to remove themselves from every chat channel but guild and private channels, to only group with a small minority of players on the entire realm, ect.

    All proponents for HC realms are asking for is the same distinction.

    A single realm merely as a trial to gauge player interest is not much to ask.

    Also, not everyone would progress at the same speed on community enforced "HC-normal" server. Those who are behind current tier content get unwanted non-optional nerfs, such as in firelands, so it is not really viable. Apologies for all the unending edits, I literally just woke up. My body needs time for the caffeine to filter to my brain.


  • Using forum feedback is not an accurate way to gauge the opinion of the entire WoW population.

  • I would like to quote myself here.

    “What is wrong in using forum users as a rough social sample method? Do people who do not use the forums differ so radically than those that do that it would make any such conclusions void?

    “In statistics and survey methodology, sampling is concerned with the selection of a subset of individuals from within a population to estimate characteristics of the whole population.“

    So yes, using the forum users as a subset for the WoW population is an entirely valid form of gauging rough feedback regarding proposals.

    Draw you own conclusions that the majority of people who has read the thread are supportive of the idea. “


  • Implementation of HC realms would affect content development, however slight.

  • While this is indeed true, I believe the cost (complete speculation on my part) would be so minor as to be unnoticeable.

    One could also argue that player retention + resurrection of previous quit players would make the move a financially sound decision and perhaps even speed up development. But again, it is impossible speculate on the limited data mere players have access to and would rest soley in Blizzards hands, so any discussion is quite moot.

    For all we know Blizzard has a team solely dedicated to content creation, and another team for implementation of said content and bug fixing.

    One could make the same argument against anything that is developed you do not agree with.

    I and many others did not complain when they started wasting resources developing Pokemon for MoP during Cata. It detracted from what I thought was more useful ways to spend the development time (more raids, maybe update the ancient models, ect), but I did not complain for it was optional.

    The same could be said for HC realms, they would not be detracting from content as they would be actually adding it in the form of an entirely new play-style. The fact it would be a choice that you may never use does not detract from the fact it IS content.


  • Players on dead realms might not wish to move.

  • Sadly, realm merging is not a voluntary thing. Once the decision is made, players no longer have the choice to stay on their original realm.

    I believe the main reason Blizzard has held off on realm mergers so far (despite the many threads asking for them) is mainly to do with indirectly admitting the player base is shrinking and the negative PR that would entail.

    Perhaps they would be more open if they could claim they were merging dead-low pop realms to make room for HC realms. Would certainly put a more positive spin on things.
    Neshgar
    Defias Brotherhood
    Neshgar
    85 Orc Death Knight
    5605
    its only for ppls who likes idea cuz its does not impact ,, casuals''
    Retarjoe
    Ravencrest
    Retarjoe
    90 Human Paladin
    14500
    Edited by Retarjoe on 03/08/12 21:04 (BST)
    I really do like the idea, but I am afraid that you will get a lot of negativity posts due to the first sentence in your post.

    I know you don't mean it like some people might understand it, or want(!) to understand it, I'm just afraid that it will have a negative impact.

    However, as I said, I really like the idea of HC realms, especially the part about no LFR (dumped down end-game content in general), and no Flying Mounts in zones where it is not actually "needed". (It does indeed make the world a wasteland, and the world now feels smaller than ever.)

    I just have to add something to the "new" LFD tool, if I didn't misunderstand it completely that is.
    No teleportation even when you find a full group, be it as the early TBC days where you only used it to find a group, then traveled manually to the dungeon. But I guess that is what you mean too, it just doesn't show from your suggestion :-)

    Heirlooms should be removed too, so no one gets a benefit over another from having played longer on that realm.

    I really miss the linear progression route you have to take in order to reach end-game content (if you got that far that is), and as you said, if people doesn't like a linear progression route and rather want to get thrown into end-game content without effort, they could stay on normal realms.

    I don't see any reason to why Blizzard shouldn't implement such realms, as it would be a matter of choice and not affect their actual philosophy they are heading with.
    A lot of us have dedicated a lot of time and effort into this game, and I think it is only fair if we had a choice rather than them dictating how we should progress in this game.
    Yes, I know it is their game and they can do however they please, but giving people a choice would not harm them in any way. If people don't like how the gameplay is on a "Heroic Realm", they could just move on to a normal realm, just as someone who dislikes the wasteland that some realms are nowadays, they move on to another, not the huge difference.

    Thumbs up for a magnificent proposal, and I really hope that this would get implemented in the nearest future.

    Edit: Spelling -.-'
    Cake
    Ravenholdt
    Cake
    86 Undead Mage
    10240
    Edited by Cake on 03/08/12 21:38 (BST)
    I really do like the idea, but I am afraid that you will get a lot of negativity posts due to the first sentence in your post.

    I know you don't mean it like some people might understand it, or want(!) to understand it, I'm just afraid that it will have a negative impact.


    Hmm, I will reword the opening sentences so I do not inadvertently give offence I guess. I thought I covered my !@# pretty well, ah well.


    I just have to add something to the "new" LFD tool, if I didn't misunderstand it completely that is.
    No teleportation even when you find a full group, be it as the early TBC days where you only used it to find a group, then traveled manually to the dungeon. But I guess that is what you mean too, it just doesn't show from your suggestion :-)


    Yeah, that is exactly what I meant. I guess I will have to go back and edit it for clarification, it is pretty poor description in retrospect.

    Thanks for the input, I hope they add HC realms or something similar too. I don't think it would take much time or effort to at least have a single realm up as an experiment to gauge how well such a system could work. Alas, only time will tell I suppose.
    Retarjoe
    Ravencrest
    Retarjoe
    90 Human Paladin
    14500
    03/08/2012 21:30Posted by Cake
    Thanks for the input, I hope they add HC realms or something similar too. I don't think it would take much time or effort to at least have a single realm up as an experiment to gauge how well such a system could work. Alas, only time will tell I suppose.


    To be honest, seeing as how Blizzard are handling (or lack thereof) dead realms and all the posts that has been regarding the road they went with the game, I doubt we will see it implemented.

    However, I know for a fact that a least a dozen of close friends would love for such a realm to rise, as well as a great portion of my current guild :-)

    But yea, a "test" realm wouldn't be much to ask for.
    Darkblazer
    Genjuros
    Darkblazer
    90 Undead Rogue
    11170
    Edited by Darkblazer on 03/08/12 21:44 (BST)
    03/08/2012 20:29Posted by Zazkya
    Blizzard likes
    I think what matter is the majority of Subs....Perhaps im wrong
    Mivvi
    Shadowsong
    Mivvi
    85 Draenei Mage
    4370
    03/08/2012 21:43Posted by Darkblazer
    Blizzard likes
    I think what matter is the majority of Subs....Perhaps im wrong


    If you can't please all of the player base with a single iteration of the game, which has been conclusively proved. Then perhaps introducing multiple iterations of said game is the key. Careful implementation is required but if its handled right it could be a winner.
    Zazkya
    Nagrand
    Zazkya
    85 Gnome Mage
    1740
    03/08/2012 20:35Posted by Cake
    if you had continued reading the following sentence


    But you told people not to.
    Zazkya
    Nagrand
    Zazkya
    85 Gnome Mage
    1740
    Edited by Zazkya on 04/08/12 04:17 (BST)
    03/08/2012 19:01Posted by Cake
    Before I begin what will no doubt be a massive wall of text; I would like to request anyone who is content with the direction WoW is currently heading, please know the proposed changes (if ever implemented, however unlikely) would in no way, shape or form effect how you play the game.


    Now that's better.
    At least now people can discuss it.

    Edit: I put this post in a stupid way, and I'm not happy with it.

    Edit bis: My apologies for this stupid post.
    Retarjoe
    Ravencrest
    Retarjoe
    90 Human Paladin
    14500
    03/08/2012 22:41Posted by Zazkya
    Before I begin what will no doubt be a massive wall of text; I would like to request anyone who is content with the direction WoW is currently heading, please know the proposed changes (if ever implemented, however unlikely) would in no way, shape or form effect how you play the game.


    Now that's better.
    At least now people can discuss it.


    You just made me lose all sense of credibility in you.. :-S
    Zazkya
    Nagrand
    Zazkya
    85 Gnome Mage
    1740
    03/08/2012 22:44Posted by Retarjoe


    Now that's better.
    At least now people can discuss it.


    You just made me lose all sense of credibility in you.. :-S


    Because ?

    Yes, I know people could discuss it.
    But they were told not to.
    Now it is open for everyone to duscuss.
    Maybe I put that wrong.
    Lieris
    The Maelstrom
    Lieris
    85 Human Paladin
    13015

    Heroic Realms

  • No LFG or limited to realm only. Perhaps like the early version of LFG like in TBC; where you simply list what dungeon you are looking for and what rolls you fill, and then you could browse this list. People would whisper you and form groups manually, filling the role of the tool that it was originally intended for; I.e forming connections with people so that you had friends to run with and no longer had to rely on the LFG tool. Once the group is made, no teleports either, you had a travel either in pairs or in a group to the dungeon to use the summon stone.

  • No LFR.

  • Removal of badge / valour points. Obviously, this would mean no more gear vendors (apart from reputation vendors), which in turn means no more one tier of current content. No more gear resets.

  • Linear raid progression, which the above point would solve.

  • No raid nerfs beyond balancing and tuning.

  • No “optional” buffs in raids.

  • No gating.

  • Perhaps a flat increase in world mobs damage by 100% or maybe even 200%. I'd say bring back real elites and group quests, but I'm trying to keep to suggestions that require almost no extra developer time.

  • Disabled flying mounts for the majority of zones. Obviously areas that can only be reached by flying mounts are exempt.

  • Character transfer restrictions. Like it used to be with PvE and PvP realms, those who leveled on a normal server would be unable to transfer to a HC server.

  • No heirlooms.


  • You just described how the default game should be.

    Regarding "No raid nerfs beyond balancing and tuning" I don't think this is worded as well as it could be.

    "A return to targeted nerfs aimed at specific boss/add health pools and fight mechanics instead of the current model of scheduled accumulative percentage nerfs across all bosses in a given raid instance"

    Nerf shouldn't be a dirty word, they are a good thing when implemented sensibly.
    Retarjoe
    Ravencrest
    Retarjoe
    90 Human Paladin
    14500
    Edited by Retarjoe on 03/08/12 23:01 (BST)


    You just made me lose all sense of credibility in you.. :-S


    Because ?

    Yes, I know people could discuss it.
    But they were told not to.
    Now it is open for everyone to duscuss.
    Maybe I put that wrong.


    He did not tell people who disagreed with him to not read on.
    He did not ask for people to refrain from posting if they didn't like his suggestion or opinions, and certainly not to not read on if they liked the game at it's current state.
    He merely stated that if they liked the game at it's current state, there would be no need to read the rest of his post, since what he was about to suggest in the wall of text ahead would not affect them in any way.

    There's a huge difference in telling people not to post, and telling people that a wall of text is about to come that might not interest them the slightest, but nowhere did he ask for people to stop reading, even if they liked the game as it is now.

    He also added later in his post that he encouraged people to come with feedback, be it good or bad, as long as it was kept constructive.

    I can't seem to follow your logic when you post BS like you did just there, and that is what made me lose credibility in you.

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