World of Warcraft®

So what, you want to make 25 mans easier to compensate for the logistical requirements?

(to OP)

10 man is currently balanced to be easier on a per-fight basis. To make up for factor such as bad raid comps and less raid cooldowns. You can also drop a healer and tank on some fights to get that 20% more dps. I've seen fights (pre-DS nerf) with 1 healer on Ultraxion and recently we've got a 0 tank madness.

Blizzard need to be a bit tighter on 10 man, in order to balance the formats. Potentially we could see this in MoP, especially with less Buffs/Debuffs - but I doubt it. Personally I think Blizzard prefer 10 man as the more accessible format, with 25 man as the hard-core competitive raiding format.

09/08/2012 07:38Posted by Tipton

So your evidence is that Kin find it easier to stack raids in 25 man?

... your thinking is too narrow. It was an example which includes all aspects on which 10-man is harder.

09/08/2012 07:38Posted by Tipton

Each member also farmed LFR 26 times.

Just another point why 25-man is easier.

So tired of this guys.
If one aspect is easier and the other aspect is of the same difficulty doesn't that mean that overall 10 are easier than 25?
It is not only the combat people, and you may say that the added difficulty is only for the officers and the GL of a 25 ppl team, but it is also affecting the members, when there arent enough on line to form a scheduled raid, or when substitudes are of lesser quality.

As for the part you linked as posible, aka making an encounter easier, you must realize that the encounters that people resort to class stacking REQUIRE class stacking or they are impossible in 25!
Typical example in the latest tier is spine heroic 25 ofc, that before the nerfs it was impossible without arcane mages with legendary.

Also do the math plz 5 arcane mages in 25= 2 arcane mages for 10. Thus with 2 arcane mages we have the equivalent class stacking in 10, no?

As i said again though, this thing is getting very tiresome and frustrating. Those are self understandable things, we shouldnt have to repeat the same things 1000 times really.

09/08/2012 08:05Posted by Lorac

Also do the math plz 5 arcane mages in 25= 2 arcane mages for 10. Thus with 2 arcane mages we have the equivalent class stacking in 10, no?

No. It doesn't scale that simple.

09/08/2012 08:05Posted by Lorac

As i said again though, this thing is getting very tiresome and frustrating. Those are self understandable things, we shouldnt have to repeat the same things 1000 times really.

Repeat "2 + 2 = 5" 1000 times... it still will be false :)))

09/08/2012 07:38Posted by Tipton

Actually it does. Raiding is a group activity. It's basically about coordinating 10/25 people. If the coordination is easier, than the content is easier. Group activities generally become easier with improved coordination.

What makes 10 man easier is the tuning of the fight, not how many players you bring to the raid.

Also do the math plz 5 arcane mages in 25= 2 arcane mages for 10. Thus with 2 arcane mages we have the equivalent class stacking in 10, no?

No. It doesn't scale that simple.)

It does.

In way much more important aspect 25-man is easier - you can stack classes which is not possible in 10-man. Proof: http://eminencegaming.com/madness-of-deathwing-heroic-world-first-interview-with-kin-blues-and-hotfixes/

PS. also spam more threads of old topics :P

Edit: added proof that 25-man are easier.

You have never worked as layer or juror I see. You have no proof, you have someone's opinion. And you clearly do not understand the level those people raid.

09/08/2012 12:13Posted by Azriyel

It does.

No, it doesn't. If we would want to stack classes at such extend just to leave spots for tanks, healers, and raid buffer then in 25-man we could stack like 17 players (assuming 2 tanks, 6 healers), also 4 or 5 healers could be potentially "best" healer class, and take other classes only for buffs while in 10-man it would be what.. 6,8 stacked players and 1,2 players tanks/healers/buffs? I've been through that, 10-man raid comp is much harder than 25-man. Especially if you aren't hardcore raider, and want let all players more or less raid equally. In 10-man 5 necessary class/buffs is half raid while in 25-man its only 20% of raid - 4 times more space to balance players in.

09/08/2012 12:13Posted by Azriyel

You have no proof, you have someone's opinion.

Its not opinion, its a proven fact - class stacking worked better than no class stacking.

09/08/2012 12:13Posted by Azriyel

And you clearly do not understand the level those people raid.

That's exactly what I clearly understand however my understanding or misunderstanding doesn't matter, I'm sticking to facts.

OP while despite the fact you have no idea why - 25mans in mists are so far a fair amount more difficult than 10man, please just shut up and don't post about this controversy without having the slightest clue again. It's the last thing this topic needs. You may people in this thread who would openly support 25man difficulty in this thread are bashing you because you are clueless, and you obviously didn't understand by page 2.

10/08/2012 12:24Posted by Teiksma

I'm sticking to facts.

No, you stick on opinions. You may want to google meaning of opinion and facts.

09/08/2012 09:03Posted by Teiksma

Repeat "2 + 2 = 5" 1000 times... it still will be false :)))

It is 2*2,5=5 genious cause 25>2X10

Also it can get even worse according to your logic:

17 dps on average in 25 and lately 6 dps on average in 10 (regardless 2-3-5 being the traditional combosition pre Cata)
So 17/6=2,835. Aka if you chose to go by the pure dps combosition then to have the equivalent of 5 arcane mages in 25 you need 5/2,835=1,765 arcane mages in 10 and 6 arcane mages in 25 equal roughly 2,11 arcane mages in 10.
And i am reminding you that spine was imposible without them in 25.

Now lets go to the other argument.

10/08/2012 12:24Posted by Teiksma

I've been through that, 10-man raid comp is much harder than 25-man

Sure it is. And it derives purely on the fact that 10 wanna get an edge based on combosition and bypass the intented difficulty of an encounter. Same as with 25 in other words only different in execution.

You present class stacking as a priviledge for 25 and raid setup as punishment for 10.

You know for sure that every guild is able to stack 6-7 arcane mages like KIN raiders and Blood Legion were able to?
Most dont, and from that aspect when a fight is getting easier by stacking and you can't stack the apropriate class, you re equally punished with a 10 man that cant field a rogue for Valiona & Theralion, or a DK tank for Zonozz, Yosajh or Madness heroic.

Lets just agree wouldnt you say?
Class stacking and good raid setup for 25 and 10 respectfully, is a priviledge for the guilds that have them and a curse for those that dont.

10/08/2012 12:36Posted by Raiju

OP while despite the fact you have no idea why - 25mans in mists are so far a fair amount more difficult than 10man, please just shut up and don't post about this controversy without having the slightest clue again. It's the last thing this topic needs. You may people in this thread who would openly support 25man difficulty in this thread are bashing you because you are clueless, and you obviously didn't understand by page 2.

More insults. More attempts to tell me to shut up, and a bit of pot stirring thrown in as well. If you've got an argument that 10 man isn't overall Easier, then please tell. If not, then please be silent.

You're obviously upset by me saying that 10 man's are easier. Fine, prove me wrong and stop with the personal attacks. Even better, let's have a post by Ghostcrawler. One of his Blogs on balancing difficulty between 10 and 25, and what goes into it. But that's not going to happen is it? Because people like you are deeply upset by the truth. And the truth is that 10 man's are balanced to be easier for normal players like Us. Whereas 25 is tuned for Guilds like Kin who have 50 active players with 100-200 char's they can bring to any given fight. It's odd that one of the arguments in this thread is about the 25 man advantage with raid stacking, when the most famous fight for raid stacking (Heroic Spine) saw Kin bring 7 mages and 5 rogues. That's just not normal, but it's what 25 man is balanced against.

10/08/2012 12:36Posted by Raiju

OP while despite the fact you have no idea why - 25mans in mists are so far a fair amount more difficult than 10man

I've not played Beta. Trying to save the surprise for release. But I suspect that your right that 25 mans will be a fair amount more difficult than 10 man.

So for all those 25 mans that will start up in MoP (and you will see lots of restarts or combinations of 10 man), their lifespan will be short lived. Eventually they will revert to 10, it's a slippery slope that Blizzard keep greasing. Which is why we need to have discussion now. And hopefully some more answers from Blizzard.

10/08/2012 17:11Posted by Tipton

Which is why we need to have discussion now. And hopefully some more answers from Blizzard.

There will be no answer m8. Blizzard is cowering away from this hot potato for 18 months now.

What can they say on the topic?

That they blew up?

That they were expecting increased access even at the cost of the blood of thousands 25s and access was reduced?

That they had to bring LFR to patch that problem at a SEPERATE lock when previously they wanted to "protect the player base from excesive burount" and LFR created another problem that caused them 1,1 million extra lost subs?

That they combined the introduction of 10 as "equally difficult" with 25 and INCREASED overall difficulty at a level higher than Wrath 25?

One mistake after another.
2,9 million lost subs
several thousands 25s disbanded or downsized.

What they will come and talk about now?
Every goal they have set, when they decided the death of 25s but were not bold enough to announce it FAILED!

And they know that we know it. Even without their official data about subs we can see it from wowprogress, guildox and third party forums.

They cant come and say "ehm soz, we did this for the good of the game but it has proven to be crap".
Rather than that they hope that people will get hooked into collecting pets for "battles" and farm, and forget about this big pile of smelly stuff that cataclysm turned out to be.

I like how this already evolved into someone linking 2.9 million subs lost to whatever they want. Cause blizzard doesn't have dozens of people working on that, one for one a gazillion times better informed/educated to solve/investigate that. And obviously an MMO that's been out for that long would have to keep rising and rising in subs and there will never be dips just cause the game is that old. No, won't happen. People are leaving the game because all of them have the same view as me on the game. :)

"Nononononon the blue poster just said they're easier to organise, 10man is still harder than 25man because I raid 10man!"

10/08/2012 22:35Posted by Spamz

I like how this already evolved into someone linking 2.9 million subs lost to whatever they want. Cause blizzard doesn't have dozens of people working on that, one for one a gazillion times better informed/educated to solve/investigate that. And obviously an MMO that's been out for that long would have to keep rising and rising in subs and there will never be dips just cause the game is that old. No, won't happen. People are leaving the game because all of them have the same view as me on the game. :)

Evolution is a steady progression, one post mentioning it isn't really evolution.

10/08/2012 22:35Posted by Spamz

I like how this already evolved into someone linking 2.9 million subs lost to whatever they want. Cause blizzard doesn't have dozens of people working on that, one for one a gazillion times better informed/educated to solve/investigate that. And obviously an MMO that's been out for that long would have to keep rising and rising in subs and there will never be dips just cause the game is that old. No, won't happen. People are leaving the game because all of them have the same view as me on the game. :)

You ever doubted that "i, me and myself" are always correct ? How dare you?

10/08/2012 22:35Posted by Spamz

I like how this already evolved into someone linking 2.9 million subs lost to whatever they want. Cause blizzard doesn't have dozens of people working on that, one for one a gazillion times better informed/educated to solve/investigate that. And obviously an MMO that's been out for that long would have to keep rising and rising in subs and there will never be dips just cause the game is that old. No, won't happen. People are leaving the game because all of them have the same view as me on the game. :)

And as always when somebody is butthurt when the obvious is pointed out he plays the

"game is old" wild card
"it is the end of expansion" wild card

Like game wasnt old at December 7 2010 (5 years and a month)
Like subs dropped before at the end of an expansion EVER.

GG stick with that.

And as always when somebody is butthurt when the obvious is pointed out he plays the

"game is old" wild card
"it is the end of expansion" wild card

Like game wasnt old at December 7 2010 (5 years and a month)
Like subs dropped before at the end of an expansion EVER.

GG stick with that.

Do not go on the lame-road and start using terms like butthurt. It is typical dodge-evasive way people use, when run out of arguments and want to belittle others.

Fact is that game is older than it was 2 years ago, and also i already pointed out why cataclysm is different than the others. It is the 1st expansion without content to work on as it is completed. Hence the nerf waves were too quick and too soon for the masses. It is THE 1st expansion's end, where you run into Footie chamopionship, Olympics and Blizzards own other game. It is NOT the same as it was with TBC, with vanilla, with WoTLK.

What azriyel said basically: game getting old, end of expansion, summer, olympics, diablo³, 8 bosses vs previous 12 bosses that had gating, super fast nerfs, etc. are all way more likely reason for decline in subs than people wanting to play 25 if I had to take a guess.

Content difficulty with vary by Tier. Tier 11 was balanced, T12 and T13 were vastly undertuned on 10 man.

Having a fight easier to coordinate will make always make it easier. And 10 man is always easier to coordinate.

Tier 11 was balanced? Are you mad or are you just stupid as hell? Or were you even playing t11?

I can tell you that t11 was INSANELY much harder in 10 mans compared to 25 mans, there were not a single boss that was easier in 10 man except for Alakir, all the other 12 bosses were harder in 10 man by far.

Some encounters were insanely over tuned for 10 mans and no boss in either 25 or 10 man in t12 or t13 have had the same difficulty that some of the t11 10 man bosses had, and it's not strange since alot of the t11 10 man bosses was just overtuned plain and simple.

I know this because I raided both when the content was fresh.

Edit: Nice taking the blue post out of context so it appears he wrote something he actually didn't, pitfull that you have to create lies.