LFR system: feedback from a casual player.

1 Troll Priest
0


Every single valid point is rendered obsolete by the fact that LFR takes one hour at most to complete, and you don't even have to do the whole run if you only need a couple of pieces. Yes, it's that bloody simple.
Weird, you counter a whole thread with multiple reasons offered with this?

Why would those points be rendered moot by your fast food argument? If anything, it strengthens points like "it spoils the whole thing by revealing the story and lore" and others.


The very best guilds will continue to spoil the story and lore by doing it on PTR/beta just as most other top 10000 ranked guilds will spoil it by watching videos of those PTR/beta/World first fights. Very few of us would go into any LFR blind to the surprises the tier might hold.
Edited by Irongym on 21/08/2012 00:07 BST
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90 Undead Warlock
10905
20/08/2012 16:57Posted by Draztal
We'll wait and see I guess, since whatever concern we try to explain gets countered with the sheer overwhelming blinding light at the end of the tunnel called MoP. Overly sarcastic? Yes, perhaps, simply because currently you're bringing arguments to the table we cannot refute due to the content not being out.


I know the only thing you can do on this regard is "wait and see". I'm not saying "MoP will fix it and there'll be rainbows and unicorns", but I do believe that if you take into account all the features and new raiding content coming up at level 90, things will look very different to most players compared to these days.


Ok, fair enough. I'll wait and see and withdraw from this discussion.

I'll leave you with this; Is it OK to have a discussion in December, when the dust has settled and everyone has gotten used to the changes? I'm hoping this is not needed but I see a lot of things that worry me to no end, even a few repeat mistakes in the design philosophy. I'm rooting for being wrong. But, I've not been for the last 7 years on matters as such. Is it OK to have this conversation were we can have a constructive conversation with you on our subjective observations? Maybe in the form of a Q&A session or something.

I'm even willing to buff it up to a point were you'll need several departments to decode all the theories in use for it to make sense ;) (since it will span multiple disciplines).
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90 Human Priest
18000
Hahaha oh this is a new one. After having been called out on the "repetition/burn out" issue the new strategy is to say it comes down to random rewards?

Where were you exactly when I made all my posts about my distaste of random rewards? Weren't you opposing me IIRC?!?! Funny how you changed your tune...

As with the "burn out/repetition" argument that I discredited, I think you are only jumping on the RNG issue because you are desperately hunting for something to make your anti-RF stance looking legitimate as opposed to a snowflake complaint.


I'd like to clear up one thing for you, eventhough it might seem like my stance is "OMG YOU MUST REMOVE LFR" it definitely isn't. I don't mind LFR being there, heck, I even run it every now and then for fun, just did last reset actually. But that's the thing, I think it's a fun addition unless I feel like I'm being pushed there because of rewards, it's hard to explain but that's just how I feel. I still do it, but I don't like it when I'm doing it "just because it gives good rewards vs. time spent". About the guaranteed reward thing, well, I'd dare to say 5mans give you guaranteed rewards if you're just willing to run it many many times, which you can during during ONE DAY. That's my point, I don't think LFR would feel like it's burning me out either if I could just do it 20-30 times in a row and most likely get the loots I wanted. But "having" to constantly do it, that's boring for me. I really don't care about being a snowflake, if I did, I wouldn't raid 1-2 times a week in 10man, I would raid 7 times a week in 25man.

Funny you should remember me from the RNG arguments, I always suspected you're the same guy. You posted on some dwarf female character back then, right?

Take what you want from it, I'm just weird with my opinions and how I feel about stuff, but believe me when I say, I don't mind people seeing content in LFR. As I said, I use it too nowadays just for fun. It's fun to run it sometimes, without any needs from there, just for fun. But when it comes something you feel like you "need" to do, that often sucks the fun out of it. I still do stuff like that because of the rewards, but I'd rather not. And Blizzard had has this "no preparations required to raid" policy, which they've been following, removing scrolls, stacking elixirs, all that stuff. Logically the need to farm gear from LFR would be the next step, considering 10/25man are locked too.

Keep in mind these are my personal opinions, I'm not trying to represent someone here. Anyways, I guess I should just leave this thread since I have nothing else to say really, I don't really feel passionate enough about this issue eventhough I might come across like that. If I do, sorry about that.


But there are people from top guilds giving their contribution, for example Kirvbanana is quite close to that as Ninjapartio used to be roughly top50 guild in the World at some point of time (around Ulduar?).


My opinions have nothing to do with the guild, nor people in it though. I don't even raid in the main 25man team, I just do 10mans with some other ex-raiders+friends&family members.
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3 Human Mage
0


I'd like to clear up one thing for you, eventhough it might seem like my stance is "OMG YOU MUST REMOVE LFR" it definitely isn't. I don't mind LFR being there, heck, I even run it every now and then for fun, just did last reset actually.



But when it comes something you feel like you "need" to do, that often sucks the fun out of it. I still do stuff like that because of the rewards, but I'd rather not.


Well I personally agree that hardcore raiders should not be compelled to raid RF and that applies to all other areas of repetitive low skill content such as switching to FOTM professions or everyone levelling a Druid alt. Whether that is possible is another matter...

With regards to RF I believe that minor modifications can fix that problem without having an impact on the massive majority that do want to run RF.

Perhaps, as you claim not to be anti-RF, you would be happy with minor modifications such as a shared lock out for 8 weeks, a shared loot lock or slight tweaks to set bonuses and weapon proc's to make them unattractive to organised raiders.

The problem is that you are being stabbed in the back by other players presenting themselves as hardcore raiders who are either wanting to be called hardcore without having to earn the title or are simply objecting for ideological reasons. Those guys end up being sunk by all the inconsistencies in their complaints and they drag you down with them.

I always warn about this. I suspect that if you want Blizzard to do something you need to clearly state the nature of the problem, the impact of the problem on you and how it can be rectified without damaging the game experience of others. I see no reason why Blizzard wouldn't make modifications in that case.

That all goes down the pan when other players for ideological and spiteful reasons come along and hijack your problem (as a legit looking cover story to hide their REAL snowflake problem behind) and start demanding modifications that (by deliberate design and spiteful intentions) would severely impact on the game experience of the majority - e.g. "remove RF", "delay RF by an entire tier", reduce RF gear to the same level as 5 mans".

I am sure Blizzard can see the same inconsistencies that I pointed out which in turn discredits the argument and damages your legitimate case. All you can do is get behind and support legitimate solutions like a temporary shared loot lock or something. Just hope that message gets through all the whining and sickening spite emanating from the Snowflakes.
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90 Human Priest
18000
Perhaps, as you claim not to be anti-RF, you would be happy with minor modifications such as a shared lock out for 8 weeks, a shared loot lock or slight tweaks to set bonuses and weapon proc's to make them unattractive to organised raiders.


I definitely would. I personally don't know if I'd prefer completely shared lock, since I might sometimes want to just do LFR for fun, like I do sometimes. Loot lock would probably be ideal, although it could raise some other problems, like some people feeling they must try their luck with normal pugs before entering LFR; on the other hand, this would mainly just mean many people would probably run LFR on monday/tuesday instead of wednesday. If there's a problem with that, I don't know. Queue times on wed-sun probably would be longer, don't know how much. On the other hand though, they'd again probably be shorter on mon-tue than they are now.

Tweaks onto set bonuses/weapon procs could go a long way too, but that might make people who only run LFR feel they're getting even more of "2nd grade" gear, and not being able to mix/match with the normal set (don't know if you meant tweaking it this way, probably not) should they happen to find a pug at some point and get lucky.

Whether that is possible is another matter...


Well, it probably isn't. If there's something that gives even +5 intellect compared to another profession, people will switch it. Everything would have to be BORINGLY (is that even a word?) similar in order to not have people go with the FOTM selection. Professions are quite well in line imo, although I don't understand why Blizzard doesn't fix JC/BS when epic gems come out. Blizzard still has to draw the line somewhere though, since whatever is doable, people who are hardcore enough, will do. Personally my limit is playing another character, although that's getting a little blurry too with account wide achievements, mainly the achievements/mounts/other vanity rewards are the reason why I want to do content on my priest instead of switching to something that might be a tad more suitable for the encounter in question.

I am sure Blizzard can see the same inconsistencies that I pointed out which in turn discredits the argument and damages your legitimate case.


Yep, you are totally right. I should focus more on what I'm writing and how it sounds, really :>
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14 Human Mage
40
But there are people from top guilds giving their contribution, for example Kirvbanana is quite close to that as Ninjapartio used to be roughly top50 guild in the World at some point of time (around Ulduar?).


My opinions have nothing to do with the guild, nor people in it though. I don't even raid in the main 25man team, I just do 10mans with some other ex-raiders+friends&family members.


I'm sorry if I misled anyone with my comment. My intention wasn't to present your opinions as opinions of the guild as a whole. I just wanted to point out that there are people from top guilds discussing about the state of the game. Unlike Stinkyedita was claiming.
Edited by Raycroft on 23/08/2012 10:19 BST
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90 Human Mage
13155
23/08/2012 02:30Posted by Treeroy
Not to mention, raid content is hardly the only thing in Mists of Pandaria. Pet Battles, Scenarios, Challenge Modes, new Battlegrounds types, more interesting quests, a huge new land to explore, a war between the Horde and Alliance (leading to World PvP), and a whole new race and class, are just a few of the other things Mists of Pandaria will have to offer you while you are not raiding.


You know why they call people hardcore raiders? Because they invest all their time into killing bosses. They try to gear up, put the best enchants, use the best food, best potions and best flasks for 1 sole purpose: DIE YOU UGLY ....

--> As long as I can't shout "thunderbolt attack" to see the boss struck by my pet's lightning, it doesn't help my raiding progress

--> All quests grow dull after seeing the story.

--> Challenge modes "look" cool and I have high hopes for them but first see, then believe. The time I trusted Blizz w/o thinking is over.

I'm looking forward to MoP and I believe not focussing on a main villain is a good thing because it doesn't herd all the players into the same direction.

Now what I'm about to say may sound controversial but I believe the current wow-policy LACKS content for CASUAL players! Now that will need some explaining I guess.

- Hardcore players have heroic modes which actually were rather hard at the start (pre nerf)
- LFR isn't designed for casuals; it's just a way to gear up. If LFR was designed with casuals in mind, it was an insult to the cognitive and mental abilities to most of the players! I have nothing "against" LFR as long as it's not seen as "casual content". Casual content is what normals are for. For some time I enjoyed DS (till I killed DW normal). After that the game ended for me as a casual.

That has never happened before. In TBC I played every single day to improve my gear, even if it meant weeks of farming for an upgrade that gave me + 10dps I felt it was worth the trouble. Why? Well, I didn't kill the last boss yet so clearly I could still improve. I was in an organised raiding guild in TBC, WoTLK and DS. We raided 5/7 19.15-23.00
We weren't world class but that didn't matter. When others were halfway through BT we killed Vash for the first time and we indeed felt great. We were looking forward to the next content and once again we tried to improve our gear and play as much as possible to continue. I'll try to put my feelings into words: we were happy because we killed a boss that troubled us and gained great satisfaction of it. After that a new challenge was waiting and that same night we went to BT. We wiped on the trash yet we had a blast. We were already dreaming to battle Illidan. When? That didn't really matter. We had a dream that was good enough to keep us going. Let me tell you a story about some mountain climbers

So you see, every time we climbed a mountain and planted our flag, we couldn't get down fast enough to try the next, even higher mountain.

In DS, something different happened. Normally we had 3 mountains ( raids ) and after defeating the first the next was visible miles further in the mist. Here we had 1 mountain but with 3 paths. I was signed LFR. It was a cut stairwell to the top and it wasn't a question if you'd get to the top but when. It didn't feel satisfying but there was an awesome depot there that gave you flashy new ropes and equipment. Wow with that equipment going back to have fun with a previous mountain was out of the question. They could build an elevator to get there with the stuff they owned now.

The normal sign was a bit harder. It was easier than the previous mountains we had climbed but it was fun. Unfortunately, they started adding extra safe-lines, cut some extra steps and provided more O2. You could ignore those but who would fall to death screaming when all he had to do was grabbing a nearby lifeline? It gave new stuff too but the rope was only 0.1mm thicker. They did the job with the older stuff so it wasn't really needed yet they took it anyway.

Then there was the 3th sign: heroic. The sign itself was covered with blood and we all asked ourselves: can we do this? Whilst preparing some1 suddenly said; guys, are we really going to risk our lives to plant a third flag on this stupid mountain by just taking another path? I'm done with it, I have seen the view but now I want something else. The guy stepped away, looking for a new mountain and fell into and the abyss.
The others didn't understand what his problem was. Isn't it cool to show others we took the hard path to reach the top? They replaced their man
Still, he had been a good friend and they missed him. Halfway through, after many many falls. The substitute was good, but he couldn't fill the gab the previous climber left. More decided it wasn't the same w/o him and they left, stepping into the void. Some of them still had a lifeline attached (AP) and they are still hanging there. They lost the will to continue and don't even care enough to go down again. Mist engulfed them. Those that did reach the top were hanging out there, aimlessly, nothing to look forward too with rope that was 0.2mm thicker again. No1 even noticed the small insignia on their breast that said "heroic". The lfr, normal and heroic path takers all looked the same.

As of late the mist slowly dissolves and they can see a new mountain. Slowly they start to stir. The question is: what's left of these once brave adventures? What damage did the frostbite do? Whose lines were cut off while hanging? Will they meet old friends or see new faces?

Only time will tell. One thing is for sure though. None of them liked hanging there and they'll sure bring a knife to cut the lines next time. Maybe water surfing can be fun as well?

Thanks for reading
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90 Human Mage
12400
There's something here that I feel is important to mention. Back in Wrath of the Lich King, 25 man heroic raiding players were raiding 10 man heroic also because loot tables were different, and so certain items were still desirable as they dropped in 10 man, but not in 25 man. Cataclysm didn't bring only the 10/25 unified lockout, it also brought the same itemization to both modes.

Just as an example, Lady Deathwhisper dropped Whispering Fanged Skull in 10 heroic, which was very attractive to melee players. Under the Cataclysm raid design, they wouln't have had a reason to run 10 man heroic ICC (gear wise) as the item would've dropped in their 25-man heroic raid.


Under the cataclysm raid design every 25 man raider would have a reason to run 10 untill he would have the item he wants or the lower itemlevel version would no longer be an upgrade. And this seems to be the main reason I see here as opposiiton to the raidfinder not so much that it exist or the difficulty, but the fact the raiders that were fully geared in heroic Firelands still realized there were substantial upgrades in the raidfinder, mostly in tier bonuses and trinkets and as such these players felt obligated to try and obtain these upgrades out of a sense of responsiblity towards their guilds. Also no dedicated raider would even have to be told or suggested by anyone to do this or to try and improve his character even outside of raiding.
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Community
Hello my fellow non-murloc creatures of Azeroth,

Please allow me to chip in with a few updated bits of information about LFR, I hope that you view this as an improvement and a step in the right direction over the current version of LFR. We do hear you and your feedback is seriously taken into consideration each time we decide to apply any change to the game.

We know that competitive players seem to dislike the idea of having to go through LFR to get some upgrades and that some will always go there as long as there is any chance at all of getting the slightest competitive advantage from it.
Of course we would prefer that LFR wasn’t part of the progression path for guilds that are raiding normal/heroic content, and so we have made some additional adjustments for the next iteration of LFR, for example:

- Currently we have two separate item levels in LFR, items from the last 2 encounters have a level of 390, while the rest have 384, this made the LFR gear from Deathwing a bit too attractive for just about everyone, including hardcore raiders, so we’ve decided that this needed to be changed for MoP.
Our initial intention was that this difference would work as a special reward for beating such difficult encounters but that didn’t really translate in LFR since those encounters don’t have a difficulty that is relevant enough for this reward to be warranted.
Basically our intention for MoP is that if we decide to give a slight bump and increase the loot table ilvl of end bosses, that same bump won’t be applied to LFR but only to normal/heroic modes.

- While the LFR gear from a new tier will continue to be slightly better than the normal difficulty items from the previous tier, we’ll structure the power level of future tiers’ LFR loot so that it doesn’t replace Heroic gear from the previous raid, and we’re continuing to discuss other solutions internally to limit the pressure for competitive raiders to run LFR.

- We’ve also made a slight change on how Terrace of Endless Spring and Heart of Fear are going to roll out. These two raids will still be split into three separate queues for LFR, but we no longer plan to release them all on the same day, instead, we’ll unlock one queue each week. We hope that by the time all of the bosses are available in LFR, organized raiders will have had two full weeks to work on normal difficulty and one week for Heroic difficulty.

While I don’t expect this to completely stop raiding guilds from feeling some need to go into LFR, I hope that it will provide less incentive, they shouldn’t feel obligated to continue running LFR for a long time on top of their normal/heroic progression, I’d say if LFR remains somewhat interesting for 2-3 weeks to some players that want one or two specific items from there, that’s not such a big issue.
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90 Undead Warlock
10905
I think that's a very good first step. Thank you for the heads up Taepsilum.
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90 Worgen Warrior
14815
Hello my fellow non-murloc creatures of Azeroth,

/snip

I'm against the implementation of LFR completely, but can accept it's probably here to stay. As such, this was an epic post and I fully appreciate it, Taeps.

You stinky murloc.
Edited by Zellviren on 23/08/2012 12:37 BST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
10165
MAkes perfect sense that lfr gear < heroic previous tier. Good decision and thanks for listening to the 'community' :)
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85 Draenei Paladin
9045
we’ll structure the power level of future tiers’ LFR loot so that it doesn’t replace Heroic gear from the previous raid


I can settle for that. I hope this power-level applies to tier bonuses and trinket procs too. The main LFR farming was for 4-sets and the spine trinkets.
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90 Undead Warlock
20385

- While the LFR gear from a new tier will continue to be slightly better than the normal difficulty items from the previous tier, we’ll structure the power level of future tiers’ LFR loot so that it doesn’t replace Heroic gear from the previous raid, and we’re continuing to discuss other solutions internally to limit the pressure for competitive raiders to run LFR.


Thankyou.

I'm doubtful that you can truly balance tier / trinkets to be unattractive, but that's at least a step in the right direction, and I'm frankly grateful enough just seeing that you're taking feedback into consideration and giving us some ground after Cata, which felt like raiders got the excrement covered end of the stick while LFR / raid nerfs went through their experimental teething period, MOP is looking a great deal better.
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90 Worgen Druid
10645
LFR gear should be lower than the last expansions normal gear. Taking DS and FL as an example, the difficulty to progress through DS LFR compared to FL normal is minute. However the gear does need to be better than tier 11 content for the sake of expansion progression.

A reason for the distance between current content and previous tiers is ilvl inflation. Its too big between tiers, forcing the LFR ilvl to be an increase on previous tiers in comparison to normal gear.

The arguement for seeing the content applies here, because I would put money on the people who LFR is aimed at never saw Firelands when it was current. LFR would enable players to gear up for the previous tiers content, and when combined with the nerfs would enable them to see the content, and gear up for the next tiers normals using raid content that can still be considered current for said players, due to it being an gear increase compared to the LFR gear.

This makes running previous content relevant for players attempting current content as well. As the items they can gain would be seen as an improvement the gear they can obtain in the LFR but is not as good as current normal/ heroic gear (but helps them gear up for that, without running the same content forever). Obviously for players who have already finished and fully geared against the previous content, and top end players this wouldnt be necessary for them to progress and can continue playing as they have done in all previous patches.

Sorry if that is a bit incoherent, currently suffering from a bit of a headache. Essentially, ilvl inflation is causing most of the arguements between players of different levels and a different approach could see content life extended and relevant to players of all levels.

Also, any information on whether current DS LFR gear sets will be available after 5.0 drops?
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90 Orc Death Knight
11685
Good luck making the implementation meet those lofty goals. It's never fun until it's a challenge. No pressure... right?
Edited by Tofu on 23/08/2012 13:22 BST
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90 Undead Warlock
20385

Also, any information on whether current DS LFR gear sets will be available after 5.0 drops?


I'd also like to inquire about this, I really loved the LFR T13 colour pallet, I thought it looked the best of the bunch, but I've never had the heart to roll on it in LFR for the looks alone against people who can actually use it as an upgrade.

Even if it was just a transmog only set, it would be nice to have purchasable sets for things like LFR - the queue will become underpopulated when the tier becomes outdated and it's not like I can gather a small group of players to go raid the place for transmog gear like I can normal raids.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8880
23/08/2012 12:24Posted by Taepsilum
Hello my fellow non-murloc creatures of Azeroth,


I like Murlocs now.
The start of expansion will probably still be a bit annoying, but I appreciate and welcome these changes, and thank you for keeping an eye on this subject.
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3 Dwarf Warrior
0
You know. Listening to minority of hardcore players and doing what they want - is a bad gamedesign. I'm casual and LFR is the only possible content for me. And current LFR expirience is not quite good. But I was hoping that MOP would fix all current LFR issues. But taking my content from me, just because hardcore players, who have their own content and enjoy this game anyway, don't like it - is making me think, that LFR experience became even worse for me in MOP. And I'm warning you. If it'll happen, then I'll quit this game instantly.
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85 Undead Warlock
13170
Hello my fellow non-murloc creatures of Azeroth,

Please allow me to chip in with a few updated bits of information about LFR, I hope that you view this as an improvement and a step in the right direction over the current version of LFR. We do hear you and your feedback is seriously taken into consideration each time we decide to apply any change to the game.

We know that competitive players seem to dislike the idea of having to go through LFR to get some upgrades and that some will always go there as long as there is any chance at all of getting the slightest competitive advantage from it.
Of course we would prefer that LFR wasn’t part of the progression path for guilds that are raiding normal/heroic content, and so we have made some additional adjustments for the next iteration of LFR, for example:

- Currently we have two separate item levels in LFR, items from the last 2 encounters have a level of 390, while the rest have 384, this made the LFR gear from Deathwing a bit too attractive for just about everyone, including hardcore raiders, so we’ve decided that this needed to be changed for MoP.
Our initial intention was that this difference would work as a special reward for beating such difficult encounters but that didn’t really translate in LFR since those encounters don’t have a difficulty that is relevant enough for this reward to be warranted.
Basically our intention for MoP is that if we decide to give a slight bump and increase the loot table ilvl of end bosses, that same bump won’t be applied to LFR but only to normal/heroic modes.

- While the LFR gear from a new tier will continue to be slightly better than the normal difficulty items from the previous tier, we’ll structure the power level of future tiers’ LFR loot so that it doesn’t replace Heroic gear from the previous raid, and we’re continuing to discuss other solutions internally to limit the pressure for competitive raiders to run LFR.

- We’ve also made a slight change on how Terrace of Endless Spring and Heart of Fear are going to roll out. These two raids will still be split into three separate queues for LFR, but we no longer plan to release them all on the same day, instead, we’ll unlock one queue each week. We hope that by the time all of the bosses are available in LFR, organized raiders will have had two full weeks to work on normal difficulty and one week for Heroic difficulty.

While I don’t expect this to completely stop raiding guilds from feeling some need to go into LFR, I hope that it will provide less incentive, they shouldn’t feel obligated to continue running LFR for a long time on top of their normal/heroic progression, I’d say if LFR remains somewhat interesting for 2-3 weeks to some players that want one or two specific items from there, that’s not such a big issue.


I'm casual and I don't like to be punished by minority of player base (hardcore raiders) whining about LFR in this thread. I don't like the changes described above. Why should I wait 3 more weeks to see content I paid for? This is NOT acceptable. Please revert this. LFR should be available same day as Normal/Heroic raids. Nerfing item level and delaying content is a bad design.
Edited by Дотфирбот on 23/08/2012 14:09 BST
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