World of Warcraft®

Howdy sports fans.

This is just a little thread I'm throwing out there to drum up some role play banter regarding something that has annoyed me of late. I may be being picky here, but I know I'm not the only one, that feels Blizzard have of late, been favouring the Horde over the Alliance, in terms of 'territorial gains' as well as in the 'hero gain/loss' ratio.

The point of this thread is not to get all "WTF OMG ITS SO UNFAIRZ." but to in fact have a little bit of banter, to break up my Saturday night, or Sunday, whenever you post, if you do.

Below you'll find a list of what I've noticed the Alliance has lost or the Horde has gained. Perhaps I'm being slightly biest, but I think the Horde gains vastly out weight Alliance gains.

I think, in part, the decreasing number of Alliance players, is somewhat influenced by Blizzards current favouring of Horde in lore. Some spoilers ahead.

During Vanilla, The Burning Crusade and most of Wrath of the Lich King, things between the Alliance and Horde were fairly even. As soon as the Shattering came, however, the Alliance started taking major losses, without gaining much.

We lost Soutshore first up, meaning that pretty much all of Lordaeron belongs to the Horde despite Alliance efforts to re-take it, and seeing as we lost the battle of Andorhal, it looks like the Wildhammer might be the next to get their bottoms kicked.

An annoying thing about how we lost Hillsbrad, is that the Horde use 'Pocket nukes' to wipe out a large Stormpike army. Yes, pocket nukes. The power of a nuke, that you can lug around in your pocket. Goblin technology is advance sure, but if they can deploy pocket nukes, what chance do we have? And where's the Gnomish version?!

And don't get me started on Goblin towns/airways/harbours in a box. Seeing as the Goblins build a 'city' for themselves in Azshara out of the blue while the Woren get a tree in a city we already own. Tree within a tree... treecept- no.

Moving South, to Ironforge, the Alliance lost Magni, considered by many to be one of the more popular Alliance leaders, to be replaced by a baby, Muradin (who is fairly cool, but lacking any real advancement in his story) and Kurden, who many players who haven't read the book/s, will have no idea who that is.

Moving down further to the Swamp of Sorrows, we saw the Alliance having a win in the battle for Stoneard, only to decide not to take it over after all. The Horde also expanded into the Blasted Lands, as well as gaining a base in Stranglethorn, Fort Livingston is the Alliance equivilant, though consists of some wooden spikes and four NPCs.

Not forgetting Stormwind. Deathwing himself crashes into Stormwind, taking out the park, as well as knocking down the statue of an alliance hero and doing some damage to the fortifactions, while Orgimmar infact gets a massive re-haul, reinforced with metal and stone walls as well as a third way in!

Jumping continent, we see the Alliance has lost half of Ashenvale, despite the Elves having the territorial superiroty and nature itself, axe beats tree. Azshara is also entirely Horde, not a big loss, but a little kick in the pants. Auberdine was kerploaded, again, not massive but mildly annoying, I suppose the new base makes up for it.

As we move into the Barrens, you might think "Well it looks like the Alliance is making progress after all. Not really. If you follow the quests through to the conclusion, we see the Alliance General of the forces in the Barrens murdered, most of the troops there scattered and the new General considers "Locking things down" as opposed to trying to expand more, meaning all we've gained is Honor Stand, which the Horde walk around, Fort Triumph, which is two towers and a broken wall, and we lost Bael Modan. But the good news is, we burned a hunting camp, Tajora... Tarajo? Something.

Stonetalon? Well despite the Horde having next to no presence in the area for three expansions, it's pretty much Horde territory now. The Elves being beaten back, despite reinforcements from the Draenei and the forces of Theramore. What perhaps hurt the most about Stonetalon, is that the bomb the Horde build and unleash upon a Druid school, the Alliance actually discover in Ashenvale and are powerless to stop despite chasing it across two zones. Sucks.

Something that I know annoys a few Gnome players. While the Gnomes built an army and unleashed their technical wonders upon Gnommergan. Their result? They managed to build a town outside the city and control a corridor within the city. Meanwhile, the Trolls, who also built an army, managed to retake the Darkspear Isles, and even repel a Naga attack as seen in the Troll starting quests. So, Trolls have their own 'Capital' so to speak, and Gnomes have 'Tinker town'.

A couple of, 'unproven points' here. Things that are mentioned in quests and seen in some regard, but their actual lore impact unknown. In Desolace, the Horde have a quest to summon a tornado of fiery death upon Njiel's point which, you guessed it, the Alliance are powerless to defend against. Not sure how this will affect the Alliance territory in the region, but probably doesn't help.

In Northrend, the Tauren meet their cousins, the Tanaka... spelling... and they can be seen joining the Horde in some locations and even pop up in the odd Cataclysm zone/updated vanilla zone. The Alliance get the Frost Dwarves, who don't seem to be able to leave the Storm Peaks.

Despite an Alliance quest to kill Nathanos Blightcaller in Vanilla, which we do, and bury him in Stormwind, he now re-appears fit and health as the hunter trainer in the Undercity.

On the plus side, the Alliance, apparently holds Gilneas, all be it somewhat loosely. And granted, the Tauren lose Cairne, but let's face it, as cool as he seemed, he'd done bugger all for three expansions, while Magni forged the Ashbringer, gave out some cool quests and tried to stop the cataclysm.

Finally, the Isle of Quel'Danas. Alright, this one is tricky. The Horde and Alliance, as well as the Shattered Sun, put in a fair amount of effort to

Now, in terms of heroes/lore characters, the Alliance doesn't seem to be doing well.

I'll leave out the examples of people we've lost in the cases of Arthas and Illidan, because, while they were once both Alliance, they kinda turned before Wow was released. More spoilers below!

Bolvar Foredragon acted as the faction leader, technically, for Vanilla and The Burning Crusade. He's recognised by other lore characters as being valorous and heroic. We lost him at the Wrath gate. But the Horde lost someone too didn't they? Yes, the death of Saurfang JR. Not to be confused with Saurfang, (who I never understood why people hype him up so much, all he seems to be famous for is shouting at Qiraji.) but his son, who only appeared in TBC and gave the player one or two quests.

Maiev Shadowsong. Arguably, not entirely an Alliance character. However, in the book 'Wolfheart' she and her Wardens return to Darnassus to re-join their people, only for Blizzard to give them the middle finger and play the "Madness" card again. Yes, Maiev and all her go 'mad'. So we lose them too. At least we get the legendary Jarod Shadowsong! Oh, no, he's joined a neutral faction.

Malfurion and Cenarious, bare with me. Malfurion is recognised as the joint leader of the Night elves, one of the new Alliance's founding races. However, rather than having him turn against the Horde and repel them from the forests he holds so dear and which they defile, he and Cenarious run off and become neutral. I can understand people discounting Cenarious because he's a being of nature and not -truly- an Alliance hero, but you'd still expect him to be miffed at the Orcs in Ashenvale.

Nobundo, the Draenei Farseer? Oh come on guys he's cool! Also seems to have gone neutral, joining the Earthern Ring, though I'm unsure if he's a permanent addition or just joined to stop the Cataclysm. Regardless, one of the few Draenei leaders, running off to play neutral, again.

Tirion Fordring and Hearthglen! Okay. So, not every body knows, but Tirion Fordring used to be Lord of Hearthglen, or at least owned the keep, before the Third war, but was banished by the Alliance for saving the Orc Etrigg. I can understand why he may not re-join the Alliance, seeing as we booted him out, but last I checked, Hearthglen was Alliance territory... and Stratholme, and all of Lordaeron that the Argent Crusade holds. So, with the Lich King dead, how come Tirion got to take Hearthglen? I mean it's Alliance territory, yes he used to own it, but when he was banished, he was stripped of title and land. It's not his any more, and strictly speaking the Argent's are holding vast amounts of Alliance land, just cause.

The Horde however don't have this problem. Jumping back to TBC, the Isle of Quel'Danas? A zone which Horde, Alliance and Shattered Sun forces worked together to re-take? Blood elves get it back. Doing the Quel'Danar quest line, we see the Blood elves rebuilding the area and basking in the Sunwell, which they also got back, courtasy of Velen.

Brann Bronzebeard. Prince of Ironforge, somewhere in line of succession and leader of the Alliance based Explorers league. While this chap has a few Horde after him in Wrath, he seems to quickly jump on the neutral ship come Ulduar and Uldum. I'm not saying he should be leading armies, but how about only helping out the Alliance buddy?

The Kirn Tor, again not a person, but an entire Alliance nation. One of the seven human, with some elves, Kingdoms that made up the Alliance of Lordaeron. This entire city, who for part of Vanilla was actually attacked by Forsaken, quickly turns itself neutral, allowing blood elf mages to join the city, as well as providing support to the Horde and Alliance.

Vereesa Windrunner! A High elven Alliance ranger hero! while she sticks to her roots and strictly opposes the Horde within Dalaran, she's pretty much had her hands tied.

Khadgar. No, the man has a statue honouring his sacrifces for the Alliance in Stormwind's valley of heroes. Many know him as a Champion of the Sons of Lothar, who joined other Alliance heroes to close the Dark Portal. Now he's neutral. Poo.

Akama, the Deathsworn and the Black Temple/Temple of Karabor. Well, tricky one this. Akama and his Deathsworn are still technically Draenei, even if the Fel magic has twisted them, so perhaps they can be excused from joining the Draenei and by proxy, the alliance. However, the Black Temple was a Draenei Temple, built by Draenei within which Velen, a Draenei/Alliance leader made his home. Now, I can't tell what's going on there right now, Akama said he's make the temple pure once more or something, but I reckon when the time comes that we get to visit the Temple, it will be neutral. Again, tricky and guessing.

I'd mention Staghelm, and how boring it is that ANOTHER character in lore has 'gone insane', wonder what Blizzards obsession with insanity is, but to be fair, we got Broll in his place!

Couple of rumors from MoP, spoilers ahead:

Apparently we'll lose or at least have Theramore crippled. While I'm not sure exactly what happens, word has it that Theramore, a fortified city with a large navy of it's own, is destroyed by a single Horde gunship.

As well as this, we'll be losing Anduin Wyrnn, Prince of Stormwind, who is going to run off and become a neutral Priest of Pandaria or something...

Now, I'm probably missing a few and have been a little one sided in my arguments, but I think the fact that this list stretches into a second page might be proof that Blizzard could lean toward Alliance more!

I'm not even saying let the Alliance win, but even the score board a bit!

What are your thoughts?

... wall of text yay.

Well.. We lost two great leaders. One which died. In their places, there is two kids.

And horde has lost a lot concerning Tauren lore in my eyes, with the stonetalon AND the thousand needles being destroyed.

And.. There is a decrease in alliance players..? I've always felt it the other way. A lot of the friends I have, has switched to alliance from Horde.

Yes, alliance might have 'lost' territories. It's only battles. Not the final result of war. Battles change. So does the winner and loser.

And I assume this discussion all depends on the individual person.

What I find the biggest problem.. Is how they've placed the portals in one city. And well.. Most portals lead to waste kingdom.. Isn't that slightly biased? It's far more central for the aianvevthan it is for the horde.

On everything else, I will stand by and shut up. I know little to nothing about previous expansions bar wotlk and I'm not the best in general lore. though.. I remember I was annoyed at how I feltt that blizzard favored alliance.

Both sides have lost a lot but I agree, Alliance have lost far more when you weigh in land that's been won/lost.

I'm with Blizz on this issue though, if both sides won and lost exactly the same amount, it would be boring and pointless. One side making larger strides to victory, but the losing side not giving up in the face of it all is pretty cool and interesting.

Alliance also lost Archbishop Benedictus.

Alright, I'll play this game.

Alliance is taking a pretty major beating, all things considered, yes, but that would be fine if the reasons were, well, reasonable. However, here's this to consider:

The first and second wars, as well as part of the third, we find out the Orcs have been fuelled by demonic corruption, and therefore that was partly retconned to explain how they managed to pound the Alliance so hard. So, yeah, you know what? Orcs aren't corrupt anymore, and unless they're having endless cannon fodder from the Outlands or are giving their 6-year-old kids AK-47s, I'm not seeing how they can still muster the same ferocity.

The post-third war and Blood Elf side joining the Horde has a lot to do with the aftermath of demonic corruption of the High Elves, which fuelled them something fierce, probably stronger than their current substitutes. Well guess what, that fuel is also sort of gone!

Post-Wrath aftermath for the Forsaken is that the undead aren't rising in droves any longer. Alright, Blizzard goes around this by introducing the "Mad Sylvanas" element, cool, but um, wouldn't the rest of the Horde kinda say that this is a no-no? Oh well, I guess they're cool with this. No problem at all, no sir, no tensions besides a couple of cutscenes. By the looks of it, Forsaken are still around in MoP, and the relationships aren't strained even with a bunch of elements-friendly carebears joining them. Whaddya know.

The Troll empire has collapsed, various tribes warring with each others, as seen with the return of the Amani and stuffies.

The Cows got tricked by some crone and lost their leader, and that's all that there's to say about them besides the fact that they wouldn't approve of Sylvanas much at this point.

Oh yeah, and the new War Chief is a bit of a klutz. Yeah, this is all great grounds for beating Alliance all over.

Then, you have the other side, the Alliance!

The dwarfs are "back together" via the council of three, the gnomes supposedly are taking part in the Retake Gnomereganstreet! movement, Lich King is dead, former allies bearing no political allegiance to the Horde now free to fight the "Bad Guys", Sylvanas' malpractice certain to attract the wrath of the Argents and possibly of the Death Knights, and hey, even Varian turns out to be less of a moron than everyone expected!

But yeah guys, things are going so well for us now, that we're simply obliged to lose to the Horde, let's give them a bunch of lands, why don't we.

Sense, this makes none of it.

To be fair though if you look at cinematics and overall flow since WotLK and especially in Pandaria you can see that Alliance is significantly more composed, organised and on the high ground from moral viewpoint. I felt that even though losses were suffered Alliance was not even remotely crippled and had things under control - with strong, capable and decisive leadership on board to solve the crisis.

I don't think I could say the same for Horde counterpart, even though as you said ground wise they've gained alot.

Personally am dissapointed by so many great characters going neutral though yes.

11/08/2012 23:21Posted by Vashnu

During Vanilla, The Burning Crusade and most of Wrath of the Lich King, things between the Alliance and Horde were fairly even. As soon as the Shattering came, however, the Alliance started taking major losses, without gaining much.

Stopped reading there.

Wrath of the Lich King could not have been anymore about the Alliance than it was.

Naxxramas was assaulting the Alliance fortress in Dragonblight. The Horde only used the undead there for one quest and that was to test the plague.
Ulduar was being led by Brann Bronzebeard.
ToC by Tirion
Icecrown again by Tirion.

In Cataclysm Tirion became Thrall and the paladins became druids and shaman.
The Night Elves get a whole bunch of stuff though, even if not all were positive.
4.0 was indeed very Horde favored
4.1 was again Horde favored with the Trolls
4.2 was Alliance favored as it was all about the Night Elves.
4.3 is the closest thing to balance.
3 heroic dungeons were released, 1 has an even ammount of Alliance and Horde, 1 was all Night Elf again and one was Thrall and Arch Bishop Benedictus.
The raid itself has the Horde Zeppelin blow up before it can do anything and we're all forced to use the Alliance ship.

Of course in the end it's all about Thrall so I understand why it feels Horde favored.

But Cata's Horde favoritism does not compare to Wrath's Alliance favoritism.

you are worst orc. you are the orc idiot you are the prc smell. return to outland. to maghar ,you may come our contry. you may live in the zoo....ahahahaha ,forsaken we will never forgeve you. orc ..orc camps best day of my life. take a bath of dead orc..ahahahahahforsken WE WILL GET YOU!! do not forget third war .troll we kill the mojo , troll return to your precious islands....hahahahaha idiot orc and forsakn smell so bad..wow i can smell it. REMOVE GREENSKIN FROM THE PREMISES. you will get caught. stormwind+ironforge+darnassus+exodar...you will thirdwar/ bolvar alive in stromwin, bolvar making album of stormwind . fast rap bolvar strowind. we are rich and have gold now hahahaha ha because of stormwind... you are ppoor stink orc... you live in a hovel hahahaha, you live in a hut
bolvarr alive numbr one #1 in stormwin....remove the maghar ,..remove bad orc no good i spit in the mouth eye of ur flag and kingdom. magni aliv and real strong wizard kill all the orc farm aminal with holy magic now we the stormwind rule .ape of the zoo presidant thrall the great demon and lay egg this egg hatch and forsaken wa;s born. stupid baby form the eggn give bak our clay we will crush u lik a skull of pig. stormwindd greattst kingdom

you are worst orc. you are the orc idiot you are the prc smell. return to outland. to maghar ,you may come our contry. you may live in the zoo....ahahahaha ,forsaken we will never forgeve you. orc ..orc camps best day of my life. take a bath of dead orc..ahahahahahforsken WE WILL GET YOU!! do not forget third war .troll we kill the mojo , troll return to your precious islands....hahahahaha idiot orc and forsakn smell so bad..wow i can smell it. REMOVE GREENSKIN FROM THE PREMISES. you will get caught. stormwind+ironforge+darnassus+exodar...you will thirdwar/ bolvar alive in stromwin, bolvar making album of stormwind . fast rap bolvar strowind. we are rich and have gold now hahahaha ha because of stormwind... you are ppoor stink orc... you live in a hovel hahahaha, you live in a hut
bolvarr alive numbr one #1 in stormwin....remove the maghar ,..remove bad orc no good i spit in the mouth eye of ur flag and kingdom. magni aliv and real strong wizard kill all the orc farm aminal with holy magic now we the stormwind rule .ape of the zoo presidant thrall the great demon and lay egg this egg hatch and forsaken wa;s born. stupid baby form the eggn give bak our clay we will crush u lik a skull of pig. stormwindd greattst kingdom

GOD IS A DWARF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-EQJA8Ahac

Well, ever since Thrall stepped down, he was neutral? Or something.. That diesnt make it horde favored at all. And with whatquincy said.. Horde isn't really that much favored.

Besides. It would seem that alliance has the received the worst when it come to destruction. This means that a lot of time has been spent on the alliance alone. Of course Orgrimmar is changed but that's about it. So, who has received most work hours?

To me it seems like the alliance. Not horde. So, no, cannae say that blizzard is favoring horde.

But Cata's Horde favoritism does not compare to Wrath's Alliance favoritism.

And the trolls ofc:3

12/08/2012 14:16Posted by Quîncy

During Vanilla, The Burning Crusade and most of Wrath of the Lich King, things between the Alliance and Horde were fairly even. As soon as the Shattering came, however, the Alliance started taking major losses, without gaining much.

Stopped reading there.

Wrath of the Lich King could not have been anymore about the Alliance than it was.

Naxxramas was assaulting the Alliance fortress in Dragonblight. The Horde only used the undead there for one quest and that was to test the plague.
Ulduar was being led by Brann Bronzebeard.
ToC by Tirion
Icecrown again by Tirion.

In Cataclysm Tirion became Thrall and the paladins became druids and shaman.
The Night Elves get a whole bunch of stuff though, even if not all were positive.
4.0 was indeed very Horde favored
4.1 was again Horde favored with the Trolls
4.2 was Alliance favored as it was all about the Night Elves.
4.3 is the closest thing to balance.
3 heroic dungeons were released, 1 has an even ammount of Alliance and Horde, 1 was all Night Elf again and one was Thrall and Arch Bishop Benedictus.
The raid itself has the Horde Zeppelin blow up before it can do anything and we're all forced to use the Alliance ship.

Of course in the end it's all about Thrall so I understand why it feels Horde favored.

But Cata's Horde favoritism does not compare to Wrath's Alliance favoritism.

I can see where you are coming from to some extent, however, there are a few points I disagree with.

While Naxxramas was indeed assaulting an Alliance base, the Alliance's finest, the 7th legion, also took a hit there, losing a great deal of their forces and their major staging point in Northrend was severley damaged. I admit, having done both parts of the 'Wrathgate' quest line, that the quests leading to the Wrathgate itself were more interesting and 'fun' on the Alliance side than the Horde.

However, right after, during the Battle of the Undercity, I feel the Horde had a better battle. Backed up by Sylvanus and Thrall, they rushed to the Throne room to defeat Varamathris and his demons, having more dialogue, more mini bossses and generally more fun. While the Alliance had Varian and Jaina, the battle seemed rather dull. We fought our way to Puteruss, who, despite having a very cool voice, was a character with very little development. And the actual fighting was a lot less interesting, fighting waves of 'Forsaken Forsaken' and a couple of Abominations, before killing the chap.

As for the other points:

I'm not sure why you think Tirion is an Alliance win. Yes, he is human, but he's not Alliance. He's the leader of the Argent Crusade, and technically an exiled Lordaeron citizen. The Argent Crusade itself is a multi-national/cultural organisation. Yes there are more humans, but that's simply because it was founded by humans and there generally are more humans than anything else.

Brann is also neutral. While yes, he is a Dwarf and Prince of Ironforge, he takes a very neutral role, heading to Dalaran to warn them of Ulduar rather than Ulduar, seeking and aiding both Horde and Alliance forces in the Storm Peaks, Ulduar, Halls of Stone and Uldum.

4.2 being Alliance favoured I disagree with. It is set in Hyjal, which seems to be a region now under the control of the Cenarion circle, again, a multi-race organisation, heck one of the leaders is Hamuul Runetotem.

Not to be snippy, but your points here seem a little iffy.

Another thing I wanted to mention was Thrall. While many will argue he is neutral, and I can see why you would, he has been seen to take actions against the Alliance in Cata. During the Goblin starting quest chain on the Lost isles, Thrall is captured by an Alliance fleet. After the Goblins free him, he uses his 'Shaman powers' to wipe out the majority of the fleet, later conscripting the Goblins to join the Horde.

I know, he acted in self defence. But he's hardly a Paragon of neutrality if he wipes out a fleet of Alliance soldiers before recruiting for the Horde. Not to mention the rumors of his return to the Alliance in MoP, where he will likely fly above Stormwind, unleashing a tornado upon the city before turning all peace like again, and I highly doubt we'll get many of our 'gone neutral' folks back.

As for the Dragon Soul part, don't get too attached to the Skyfire: Spoilers : as it appears to crash on the Pandarean starting area, meaning one tiny advantage we may have had we've lost again, not to mention the Horde apparently build another one to attack Theramore.

To be fair though if you look at cinematics and overall flow since WotLK and especially in Pandaria you can see that Alliance is significantly more composed, organised and on the high ground from moral viewpoint. I felt that even though losses were suffered Alliance was not even remotely crippled and had things under control - with strong, capable and decisive leadership on board to solve the crisis.

I don't think I could say the same for Horde counterpart, even though as you said ground wise they've gained alot.

Personally am dissapointed by so many great characters going neutral though yes.

I agree that the Alliance always seems more organised, seems more potent and ready for war. However, the Westfall quest lines show that the Alliance economy seems to have taken a hit, the Defias even going as far to siege Sentinel Hill. As for being crippled, I can't say I've seen enough information to agree on the state of the Alliance power myself, but it does seem to me we can't be doing too great.

As for the Dwarf leadership, I'd say it's somewhat strained. While the Dwarves have a single 'government', it seems there are tensions between the Dark Iron and Bronzebeard/Wildhammers. The Dark Iron's even seem to still be on the offensive, attacking Ironforge's airport, still having a large Pro-Ragnaros ( I suppose ) faction.

Now. About the lost zones.. That´s an easy one. GARROSH FOR PRESIDENT! 'Nuff said.

Blizzard has addressed this here:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3322695/Coffee_With_the_Devs_Faction_Favoritism-25_11_2011

Basically they are saying that they'll do whatever they feel is necessary to drive the story forward and deliberately being unfair is part of it.

13/08/2012 12:16Posted by Atataka

deliberately being unfair is part of it.

It's not really unfair since it's their game and they can decide what happens. It isn't like alliance has lost everything and made no gains whatsoever. But yeah, if it was 'fair', and both sides made identical gains and losses, it would be very stale and boring.

I agree with you Zixxle, that one side needs to come out on top in order to encourage some sort of story growth.

However, when the balance seems shifted so drastically to one side so quickly, it makes things seem more unrealistic than anything else. Had there been some sort of advancement by the Horde over a period of the expansions it might have felt easier to understand, if still a little hurting to us Alliance and proud types. It just seems like "And then the Horde had half of the map.", well half is exagerating but you see my point!

It's also not so much that we're losing the territory, it's the manner in which we do. More often than not the Alliance seems to be forced to make a retreat with our tails between our legs as opposed to being driven back heroically.

I disagree. They're merely giving the Horde races more flavour, lore and developments at the moment.

But when it comes to the war-effort. I think the Alliance will end up surprising you and the expansion will definitely not end with the Horde on top in any way. From what I've heard, some interesting pro-Alliance things are happening.

Give back The Park.

Now.

:(