World of Warcraft®

14/08/2012 12:15Posted by Stinkyedita

Ulduar was a failure. The usage numbers especially for everything past Kolo were diabolical. I believe it was the least ultilised raid in Wrath and yet the most expensive to develop.

The reason it was a commercial failure is because although it was such a massive raid, it didn't last 4 months, given it was released mid-April and replaced at the beginning of August. That's a far cry from the full year ICC lasted, or 9 months we'll have been in Dragon Soul. If they'd given it another 2-3 months, I have no doubt it would have been regarded as a greater commercial success.

Back to the main post though:

Raid size and difficulty curve:
This is definitely something that's been lost in Cataclysm. It doesn't matter what metric you use, but killing 9 bosses out of 12 is more satisfying than killing 6 out of 8, even if proportionally you're only the same distance into the content, and at the same difficulty level. Not only do the additional bosses offer more rewards in terms of loot, but that loot puts you in a better place to succeed at later challenges and reduce the risk of hitting brick walls. Brick walls that have a lesser risk of appearing due to the proper difficulty scaling in the first place.

In terms of progressive nerfs, again, I support them; in ICC they were I think handled better as they didn't come in quite so fast. Dragon Soul was handled better than Firelands, with the progressive nerf rather than a massive blanket nerf, but it was applied too soon, especially given the holiday season when many people simply didn't raid, and that over-eagerness to nerf smacked in both cases as panic from the top that just brought the mood down further.

10 and 25 man lockouts
I can't see this going back, but 10 man causes too much trouble with composition and 25 man is too unwieldy. I'd actually rather see a single, better balanced 15 man format. The real problem here though wasn't that people felt forced to run both, because ICC was so large that it just wasn't practical for most, so a lot of us didn't - that argument is a hangover from ToC where the simple lack of bosses made it not just practical, but desirable as it offered something to do. It's not a surprise then that in Firelands and Dragon Soul with one difficulty and one format, we are content starved.

Put simply, bigger raids would fix the issue, as people could focus on enjoying their place in the game. If people really want 25 mans, they'll find a way to do them.

LFR
It's not my cup of tea, but I don't drink tea. It serves a purpose for me, and plenty of people do genuinely enjoy it. I have no problem with that. Tier bonuses and OP trinkets aside, there's no reason to really run it if you're an organised raider, so fixing that excessive incentive would fix much of the problem with burnout and feeling forced to do it. No one is fooled that what drops there is on par with Normal, let alone Heroic loot so otherwise the rewards are fine.

What is lacks is a risk of failure, and by contrast therefore the satisfaction of success. In it's current incarnation it's little more than a loot casino, and that's why people treat it as such. It's a good idea in principal, but so many aspects are clearly rushed - but remember it wasn't meant to be implemented until MoP. There is time yet for polish, and as a place for getting used to a new class in a raid-like environment, for me, it's second to none.

Attunements.
This is something I am totally against. They serve no purpose other than as a contrived system of holding people back. They can't possibly teach a player how to work in a large group environment to "fix the learning curve" unless they involve a current tier raid which instantly defeats it's point; completing previous tiers can be done via boosting, and having done heroics since TBC, I can pretty confidently say there's nothing in there that can't be picked up in seconds in a raid, but plenty in a raid that never, ever applies to a dungeon. The only way to learn to raid, is to raid with a group at your level in appropriate content to your level.

In terms of solo quests, the disconnection is even greater, and unless they were done through class specific quests, they're not exactly going to do much for teaching a player about their class either. Now, I'd love to see those class quests with some decent pre-raid gear as a reward; with quest extentions added each tier to bring that reward up to date - that for me is like the panacea of questing. But insofar as being mandatory for entrance to a raid instance? No.

It's enough that the raid leader needs to have cleared Normal to enter Heroic. At an absolute push, I could accept an equivalent of the raid leader having to have completed Naxxramas to enter the Eye of Eternity half a tier ahead; the quest there necessitating obtaining the key made the attunement too contrived, and added too much RNG in relation to pugging.

14/08/2012 14:12Posted by Jessicka

The reason it was a commercial failure is because although it was such a massive raid

I don't think anyone can really say this. As far as I can tell, no incremental subscription numbers were announced for 2009. However, it appears that the number remained fairly stable over that time, give or take half a million. Given that there were three new tiers released in 2009, who can say where that half a million came or went?

14/08/2012 14:46Posted by Thete

I don't think anyone can really say this. As far as I can tell, no incremental subscription numbers were announced for 2009. However, it appears that the number remained fairly stable over that time, give or take half a million. Given that there were three new tiers released in 2009, who can say where that half a million came or went?

It's more a case of Blizzard regarding it as such because "not enough" people saw the end of it.

I think this expansion, they shot for the 'smaller tier more often' model, as that's what the discussed early on. They clearly missed that through the work they needed to put in to get it out faster basically failing. From a personal standpoint, I would actually prefer a 'bigger longer' tier less frequently. No innuendo intended.

14/08/2012 14:09Posted by Stinkyedita

Doesn't matter what nonsense you "think", that is commercial REALITY.

Ouch - anger management issues.

Success. Lorac defined it, you defined it. Neither of you are wrong. You seem to have severe issues with anyone defining it contrary to your world view, but I rarely care about a forum hero, so here goes.

I define success as....fun for me and my playing peers.

Shockingly, I don't mention money or subscription rates.

DS+LFR may be a massively used and populated raid environment. It's also the place that brings out the terminal !@#$%^, "gogogo" brigade, spam chat with DPS/HPS numbers, call everyone a re**** etc etc members of the playerbase. It's a cesspit. It is not a success.

DS without LFR has its moments but as the final raid of the expansion, the big bad showdown...it's a letdown. It may have had a greater longevity in my mind without LFR. However you cut it, LFR is so accessible, you will run it multiple times. That will wear out the content regardless of whether it's LFR/Normal/Heroic. If the content itself has its weaknesses, it'll wear out more quickly.

I've raided in all expansions. The raids that made me smile, made me laugh and made me rip out my hair were the ones I found in Wrath (remove Totc, add in Kara and it would have been perfect). Those were my successes.

I really don't give a rats about subscribers or cash or opportunity cost or any other numerical value. It's a game. It's meant to be fun.

14/08/2012 15:13Posted by Muddler

Doesn't matter what nonsense you "think", that is commercial REALITY.

Ouch - anger management issues.

Success. Lorac defined it, you defined it. Neither of you are wrong. You seem to have severe issues with anyone defining it contrary to your world view, but I rarely care about a forum hero, so here goes.

I define success as....fun for me and my playing peers.

Shockingly, I don't mention money or subscription rates.

Your definition of success isn't worth the pixels it is written in. Stick the socialist "you are both right" crap, that doesn't work in the real world.

Come to most employers with that attitude and they will come down on you so hard you won't know what hit you. You will end up on the pavement next to a cardboard box containing your belongings and star wars figurines.

In the real world you will need to carry out an investment appraisal. Every single dollar spent on development has to be justified.

Crap like "how fun it is for an irrelevant niche" doesn't cut the mustard. When you stand in a meeting room before a dozen senior people you won't get away with fobbing them off with a load of woolly crap.

You will be pinned to a desk and have a giant staple gun put to your head and would be asked important questions which in this case would come down to the number of subscription dollars that this content would help retain in comparison to every dollar spent on its development.

That in itself is a complex figure to come by. The content may not act alone in this regard and may as we discovered in 4.3 require additional content to provide enough incentive for subscribers to renew. Still on a simple level we would look at how many will use the content because if 95% are not using it then we know that it is only playing a part in retention for 5% at most.

Of the 5% that are using it is likely the case that some are using it "because it is there" but the content is not having any bearing on their intentions to resubscribe. In other cases amongst the 5% it is only part of the reason they subscribe.

We would balance this up against the cost of developing the content. Even once we reach that figure we then have to compare it with the return we would get on each dollar spent on things like 5 man dungeons, questing, rehashed easy mode raids like Naxx or DS etc etc.

Ulduar was expensive and the utilisation figures were very low and that is before we even get into the issue of how many of those users it was not retaining or was only partly retaining. Compared to other content it represented a terrible investment decision.

That is why you haven't seen another one. Still with RF now in place you might be lucky...

14/08/2012 16:46Posted by Stinkyedita

In the real world you will need to carry out an investment appraisal. Every single dollar spent on development has to be justified.

Two things really:

1) I think it's the private sector you are specifically talking about. The 'real world' would also include the public sector and investment appraisals, if they ever take place, are purely a paper exercise to tick a box.

2) You only have to convince the powers that be that the money spent has been justified. The justifications used are often so vague that only the most determined will really scrutinise them. However, you are right in saying that the outlay of funds most certainly should be justified.

14/08/2012 16:46Posted by Stinkyedita

Stick the socialist "you are both right" crap, that doesn't work in the real world.

14/08/2012 16:46Posted by Stinkyedita

In the real world you will need to carry out an investment appraisal. Every single dollar spent on development has to be justified.

14/08/2012 16:46Posted by Stinkyedita

Crap like "how fun it is for an irrelevant niche" doesn't cut the mustard.

And I repeat, anger mangement issues.

And I say again GAME. Real world - not relevant.

It's a game. It's meant to be fun, challenging, engaging, social, maddeningly frustrating but above all - FUN. Real world definitions mean nowt in a game.

Don't bring your economics party line and brow beat me when I'm talking about fun. It wont wash.

14/08/2012 14:09Posted by Stinkyedita

I've warned you before that your days of forum BS are over and I will call out each and every post where you do it.

Oh rly? How excactly a troll like yourself can warn anybody in a virtual world?
Your subjective opinion has excactly the same potential value with mine to certain people, aka 0, and your personal caliber is measured excactly by the tone of your posts, that tend to become hysterical when (more often than not) people disagree with your "words of wisdon".

14/08/2012 14:09Posted by Stinkyedita

What determines "success" are the subscriber retention benefits versus the cost of development.

Yep and? How do you "measure" the benefits of the raid junior? From the amout of people visiting it while relevant?
How about the impact that they have marketing wise?
How about people joining the game only because they herd that raids like these are happening in world of warcraft?
How about the impact they have on the playerbase, when always in polls and threads related to the matter Ulduar is first and ToGC is last?

14/08/2012 14:09Posted by Stinkyedita

Doesn't matter what nonsense you "think", that is commercial REALITY.

Yap and marketing should go off the window...Because we must start aproaching a games marketing with descriptions like
1) "Raiding in wow is faster than fedex!"
2) "Raiding in wow is more accessible than every other game! See the last boss! Success guaranteed!"
3) "Raiding in wow is so easy with the new ultradvanced LFR feature! Press the button and loot!"
4) "You re tired of long endless nights crafting gear, raiding previous raids, having to TALK and get ALONG with other people to raid??
Hit LFR, satisfaction guaranteed!"

You will make human kind proud one day! I have faith in you!
Keep trolling Stinky.

I think the problem with raiding is that many players are stupid.

There, i said it.

I legitimately thought Naxxramas was too easy. Problem is that a lot of players just wouldn't follow tactics and would wipe, and even on simple bosses like Anub'rekhan, Gluth and Instructor Razuvious.

And I repeat, anger mangement issues.

And I say again GAME. Real world - not relevant.

It's a game. It's meant to be fun, challenging, engaging, social, maddeningly frustrating but above all - FUN. Real world definitions mean nowt in a game.

Don't bring your economics party line and brow beat me when I'm talking about fun. It wont wash.

More web forum nonsense.

Get your head out of fantasy land, get your ego under control because it is time for a reality check. Your personal fun is nigh on worthless because you are just one person with one pathetic subscription sum each month.

This is a product designed to earn money. That is the reason it exists. The aim is to maximise the profits and make as much money as possible.

It is not a charity toy whose sole purpose is to provide you and in particular a tiny irrelevant niche with pleasure.

That is why the things that you consider to to be "the best bits" are often discontinued or don't receive as much attention as you would like.

Until you understand that this is nothing but a consumer product and you represent nothing but an irrelevant little niche amongst millions of customers then I am afraid things aren't going to make much sense to you.

I legitimately thought Naxxramas was too easy. Problem is that a lot of players just wouldn't follow tactics and would wipe, and even on simple bosses like Anub'rekhan, Gluth and Instructor Razuvious.

The problem was not with the players per say.

It was either with your guild recruit policy or the amount of vetting you did when forming a pug.

This is the same reason RF has to be so easy. Not because most players are stupid - because most aren't stupid.

The problem is that there are a sizeable number of bad players who will try their chance at anything given half a chance. The problem with RF is it practically gives everyone a chance. It is a nightclub with no doorman. That is why RF has to serve its drinks in plastic cups.

Ulduar was a members only club and didn't get enough customers to pay the rent and ended up shutting down. The 4.0 heroics were kind of like the RF nightclub but with cheap drinks served in proper glasses and it predictably ended in a blood bath.

In most cases, if you were to ask a section of the WoW community what their favourite raid ever was, you’d find the Titan estate perched in the extreme north of the Storm Peaks at the front of that list. Other instances such as Karazhan and Icecrown always figure prominently, with certain bosses long remaining in the memory of those who fought them. Truthfully, though not without its problems, Ulduar was what I consider to be the perfect raid and it saddens me that what it highlighted as possible has been largely jettisoned in favour of a model that has since obscured its majesty.

The key word there in the first sentence is "section".

Ulduar was a failure. The usage numbers especially for everything past Kolo were diabolical. I believe it was the least ultilised raid in Wrath and yet the most expensive to develop.

A commercial disaster.

The sad part is the content itself was excellent and had RF been around it would have been a great success.

Btw although I am a casual player now I was in a hardcore guild at the time and got to do the hardmodes and see Algalon etc. I also had my alts in my old social/casual raiding guild and saw how for them the easiest difficulty mode was far too hard. The content needed to be accessible to those people to be commercially viable and it wasn't.

By suggesting the removal of the RF tool you highlight your ignorance of this fact.

If you remove RF then the answer to the thread subject title is "there isn't one". Activision will pull the plug on it and 5 mans will be the new end game.

There was nothing stoping your casual/social friends in that guild to access content exept their own inability to play the game.

Blizzard didn't put any artificial barrier for them they had normal modes wich were joke let be honest if they couldn't clear past Kologarn the problem is not in the content it is in the players ergo your argument again is invalid.

Stop feeding people and they will learn to feed them selfs.

A lot of good commentary here, I've left this alone to let the conversation develop. There's a lot to discuss, though.

At the other end of the scale is another chap on my server that is, from his Openraid profile at least, absolutely awful. Yet, he's persevered, essentially without the support of his guild (who were so keen to take the credit for it by the way) to get his legendary weapon. It's these players that I wish developers looked at.

I agree; I think there's a lot to be said for players that persevere, and content should be developed with them in mind as well as those who simply want to log in, kill bosses, and get loot.

13/08/2012 21:40Posted by Tipton

Reduce it to 10, and you would have a better chance. Add some minor fail=wipe mechanics, but still make it easier than Normal. Reduce it to 10 and people would also have the option of forming a group via Guild or Trade.

It's not the queue that bothers me, it's the easy setting - there are several other ways to introduce people to raiding, all of which are better than LFR.

13/08/2012 22:39Posted by Liliith

ur looking at the problem from the perspective of an experienced raider who raided through few expansions while blizzard tries to market their product to whole spectrum of players not only experienced raiders.

Actually, I'm trying to discuss a system that introduces players to content, helps server PuG communities to flourish, and assist casuals to get into raiding if that's what they want to do. When someone says "you just want content for mega-hardcore raiders, you don't think about casuals", they run the risk of saying:

"Casuals all want to raid, too."

That's demonstrably untrue.

14/08/2012 11:12Posted by Exiasee

I wouldn't call it 20 bosses, I'd call it 5 bosses with slightly different mechanics in-between the 4 modes without locking you to loot if they've been defeated already withing the lockout.

I think that's a totally legitimate assessment, just from a different perspective. It's no less valid than the view I tried to paint.

14/08/2012 11:12Posted by Exiasee

I actually do not see why this isn't so in Cataclysm as well. Halfus and Magmaw are regarded the easiest bosses of T11, despite Halfus's random drake element, leading to harder, multiple phase bosses, namely Nefarian and Elemental Monstrosity. Shannox is considered the easy boss of Firelands, and Morchok is the easy boss of Dragon Soul.

Tier 11 was far more punitive in its mechanics than tier 7 ever was. I'd say that Halfus and Magmaw were easily as rough as Kel'thuzad or Malygos who were both end tier bosses. The fact that Blizzard had to chance combat resurrection mechanics to stop even the top guilds stacking druids hints that even the best players were dying commonly.

If that's the case for those at the top, I shudder to think what it was like for those at the bottom.

14/08/2012 11:12Posted by Exiasee

This is where I disargee with. LFR is a good tool that allows people to see content when they themselves cannot experience it.

The thing is, I agreed with you prior to the nerfs to normal mode; but those actually opened up the content easily enough for those who legitimately wanted to raid, rather then setting up a no-risk version of it that people do purely for something to do.

14/08/2012 11:12Posted by Exiasee

I'd like to see them back, but in a different way: Quest lines. There should be epic quest lines, like that of Karazhan, that when completed offered additional loot of higher quality than normal raiding.

I could support that.

Overall i would say that game focused into driving as many people as possible into the so called "end game" based on the assumption "it is so good that all should see it".
The truth though was that "it was so good exactly because not everybody could see it".

I don't disagree with you, but I worry that this notion of "exclusivity" is typically promoted by those who were in that group. Mike Preach's video about the journey is an excellent video, but it's easy to say it was great when you were in the group raiding the content.

It just sounds a little hollow to me, if you catch my meaning. It's not that I think you're wrong, just that it's a hard sell.

The key word there in the first sentence is "section".

Ulduar was a failure. The usage numbers especially for everything past Kolo were diabolical. I believe it was the least ultilised raid in Wrath and yet the most expensive to develop.

When I said "section", I really meant that if you ran a poll amongst sections such as TankSpot, the WoW official forums, MMO Champion or MainTankadin, then you'd come up with the same answer; Ulduar, Karazhan and Icecrown would come up trumps.

I get your view of Ulduar as "a failure", but you're basing that assumption off a grossly skewed set of circumstances; namely, that one of the biggest raid instances received an amazingly short life cycle (mentioned by Jessicka). Had it been given even two months more, or gradual nerfs as we've seen in Icecrown and Dragon Soul, I suspect it would blow away the competition entirely.

Also, don't forget I also mentioned Karazhan and Icecrown - the former was raided actively for an entire expansion, while the latter has maintained its popularity despite being endgame for the fabled year.

By suggesting the removal of the RF tool you highlight your ignorance of this fact.

If you remove RF then the answer to the thread subject title is "there isn't one". Activision will pull the plug on it and 5 mans will be the new end game.

It's not ignorance to suggest that community-driven policies that get people into content (WotLK) is better for the health of the game than random queues (Cataclysm). And given the fact that patch 4.3 has heralded the most substantial subscriber drop in the game's history, as well as an almost unprecedented level of dislike, highlights this quite eloquently.

14/08/2012 14:09Posted by Stinkyedita

All of that content had a huge subscriber retention benefit given the large numbers using them and were relatively cheap to develop. They were incredibly profitable developments.

Were they? Time will tell on LFR and no such assessment can be made on it as yet. Given the fact that it's cost Blizzard around a million subscriptions and a significant amount of goodwill (which you can't put an easy price on), we'll see how it goes.

The reason it was a commercial failure is because although it was such a massive raid, it didn't last 4 months, given it was released mid-April and replaced at the beginning of August. That's a far cry from the full year ICC lasted, or 9 months we'll have been in Dragon Soul. If they'd given it another 2-3 months, I have no doubt it would have been regarded as a greater commercial success.

I think that's the biggest reason why Ulduar's numbers were so low, yet it ended up the most popular raid yet designed.

10 and 25 man lockouts
I can't see this going back, but 10 man causes too much trouble with composition and 25 man is too unwieldy. I'd actually rather see a single, better balanced 15 man format. The real problem here though wasn't that people felt forced to run both, because ICC was so large that it just wasn't practical for most, so a lot of us didn't - that argument is a hangover from ToC where the simple lack of bosses made it not just practical, but desirable as it offered something to do.

Balkoth on my blog actually commented that the solution to a lot of problems alluded to (that I solved with seperate lockouts) is simply more bosses; and it's a fair cop. I think the days of 15-man raiding may yet come, but the main point is that if there's enough content to run on a weekly basis, seperate raid lockouts cease being a necessity. I think a tier of 12 to 14 bosses is about right, assuming the shared lockouts remain, and the small number of bosses in Firelands and Dragon Soul exasperated the problem.

What is lacks is a risk of failure, and by contrast therefore the satisfaction of success. In it's current incarnation it's little more than a loot casino, and that's why people treat it as such. It's a good idea in principal, but so many aspects are clearly rushed - but remember it wasn't meant to be implemented until MoP. There is time yet for polish, and as a place for getting used to a new class in a raid-like environment, for me, it's second to none.

Well put but, again, properly tuned difficulty curves in normal raiding achieve the same things with none of the downsides LFR suffers from.

Now, I'd love to see those class quests with some decent pre-raid gear as a reward; with quest extentions added each tier to bring that reward up to date - that for me is like the panacea of questing. But insofar as being mandatory for entrance to a raid instance? No.

You and I have discussed attunements at length in game, and their value isn't only in attending to the broken learning curve; involved single-player quests or even five-man dungeons that require certain things to be done (take no more than a set amount of avoidable damage, or interrupt a certain number of spellcasts; something like that) can certainly be used to help players learn the ropes.

But let's not forget, content is already gated - I'm not talking about another gate, I'm talking about a different gate. Rather than completing a previous tier or meeting an arbitrary item level average, attunements can be a gate players that want them can go for.

Lastly, remember that there is story-driven value to attunements, something that's consistently overlooked. As a way of introducing zones, mechanics and bosses in a lore-related fashion that's infinitely preferable to in-raid cut-scenes, attunements can add depth to the raiding game. Hell, you can even make them quest lines that launch prior to the raid tier similar to how the Storm Peaks introduced Ulduar.

But class-quests that scale up via raiding tiers that have commensurate rewards? I think that's an epic idea.

When I said "section", I really meant that if you ran a poll amongst sections such as TankSpot, the WoW official forums, MMO Champion or MainTankadin, then you'd come up with the same answer; Ulduar, Karazhan and Icecrown would come up trumps.

I get your view of Ulduar as "a failure", but you're basing that assumption off a grossly skewed set of circumstances; namely, that one of the biggest raid instances received an amazingly short life cycle (mentioned by Jessicka). Had it been given even two months more, or gradual nerfs as we've seen in Icecrown and Dragon Soul, I suspect it would blow away the competition entirely.

Yes when you said section you referred to an irrelevant minority - even Lore at Tankspot stated in a weekly marmot or PST that "we don't matter" when referring to his fellow raiders. I agree with your latter point because yes if it had been nerfed or had an RF mode it would have been a huge success. Which is why hopefully we may see another.

However you are suggesting the removal of RF modes and forcing people into organised play and as I have already pointed out, only a small minority want to play in organised scheduled groups.

You call it "community driven" but the majority have never been able play this way.

And given the fact that patch 4.3 has heralded the most substantial subscriber drop in the game's history, as well as an almost unprecedented level of dislike, highlights this quite eloquently.

It does nothing of the sort. What it highlights eloquently is that raiding, and even casual mode raiding, is minority interest content. 4.3 had the highest level of raid participation of any patch in history. It lost lots of subscribers because raiding doesn't really matter as much as the other content that the majority prefer and that Cata didn't provide enough of.

Even RF is still over an hour of "tied to the keyboard" time. The same reason 4.0 HC's proved so unpopular and why Blizz are reverting to the Wrath "lunch break" philosophy.

Given the fact that it's cost Blizzard around a million subscriptions and a significant amount of goodwill (which you can't put an easy price on), we'll see how it goes.

I am afraid this won't wash. It is wishful thinking and nothing more. 4.3 as I say had the highest level of raid participation in history. The only people who withdrew their goodwill were an irrelevant and tiny niche of snowflakes and if every single one of those left it would barely make a dent on subscription figures versus the losses we have seen this expansion.

13/08/2012 17:22Posted by Zellviren

1) Reinstate the learning curve.

I agree. This would also help in adding more lenght of the content. However, I think, without comparing this discussion with TBC, that a raiding model like the one, we had in TBC, would work even better.

13/08/2012 17:22Posted by Zellviren

2) Seperate 10 and 25 player raids.

Agreed.

13/08/2012 17:22Posted by Zellviren

3) Remove the LFR tool.

Agreed.

13/08/2012 17:22Posted by Zellviren

4) Bring back attunements.

Agreed.

14/08/2012 17:32Posted by Stinkyedita

Get your head out of fantasy land, get your ego under control because it is time for a reality check. Your personal fun is nigh on worthless because you are just one person with one pathetic subscription sum each month

You truly are angry. And rude. Amazing that someone so quick to bring real world in to a game environment is loath to bring the real world concepts of courtesy and politeness ....telling one thinks.

Number are numbers. You quote them, I ignore them. You say I'm just one voice. I say you are but one voice. Your whole first para applies to your pov and mine.

Numbers have no reference. Just because loads do something, does not make it
A) Good
B) Something they actively like doing

it just makes it something a lot of people do. You're not grasping that fact.

If something is fun, people will do it. Human nature. We enjoy things and things we enjoy, we remember and we want to do again. We also encourage our peers to give those fun things a try.

LFR is a success by the numbers, yet it has spawned countless threads and if you actually run LFR, the chat and the behaviour are terrible. The attitude of the players within it is akin to "ah well, it's only LFR, who gives a ****".

That is never good.

Zell - I've diverted the thread methinks. Apologies. I applaud your efforts. I am not, nor ever will be, a high end raider but I always admired those that could perform at that level. I would hate for us to lose the environment that fostered people to perform to their potential.

Number are numbers. You quote them, I ignore them. You say I'm just one voice. I say you are but one voice. Your whole first para applies to your pov and mine.

Alas, much like believing you will spend the after life living in some kind of paradise surrounded by beautiful women instead of simply being dead, it is less painful to subscribe to the belief that numbers don't matter when the reality requires you to accept that you are pretty much worthless.

Ignorance is bliss. Truth hurts etc.

As I said to another poster on here; "at what point will you stop being a mug and stop paying your subs? You have been posting this nonsense for ages and yet the game gets MORE casual. When is this fantasy revival of TBC going to happen? People are going to start to laughing and mocking you soon - just like they do with these cults that predict the end of the world is happening this Sunday.

Tell us how long you are going to keep paying up like a sucker for the privilege of having Blizz laugh at and ignore your posts each month before you realise it isn't going to happen?".

I mean can you give us a date? When will you give up and go away?

Wrath saw the end of the TBC progression model. Cata saw raiding for the masses and free epics for everyone, MOP sees Pokemon. I mean I've won? Everything I said has been proven true. Unless you want to predict the date of your amazing come back? Preferably some time before we all stop playing computer games and spend our lives flying hover cars around the moon.

14/08/2012 20:03Posted by Stinkyedita

these cults that predict the end of the world is happening this Sunday

Before or after the raid?

Yes when you said section you referred to an irrelevant minority - even Lore at Tankspot stated in a weekly marmot or PST that "we don't matter" when referring to his fellow raiders. I agree with your latter point because yes if it had been nerfed or had an RF mode it would have been a huge success. Which is why hopefully we may see another.

However you are suggesting the removal of RF modes and forcing people into organised play and as I have already pointed out, only a small minority want to play in organised scheduled groups.

You call it "community driven" but the majority have never been able play this way.

The problem with this argument is that it's not governed by logic.

Given that you're calling raiders an "irrelevant minority", Blizzard's decision to turn everyone into a raider by creating no-risk content in the form of LFR flat out proves that they disagree with you. Clearly, raiders do matter because Blizzard want everyone to get the chance to do it.

And when you say only a small minority want to play in organised groups, why is their content being dumbed down to the level of LFR? Why should a group activity, which is what raiding fundamentally is, be altered to the extent of LFR where it's an individual pursuit?

Dungeons, quests, scenarios, pet battles, RP, exploration, mounts, PvP and all the other things that go on are potentially what casual players perhaps want more, and would rather resources were spent on, than simply "seeing the content" which is already accounted for with gradual nerfs to normal mode.

It does nothing of the sort. What it highlights eloquently is that raiding, and even casual mode raiding, is minority interest content. 4.3 had the highest level of raid participation of any patch in history. It lost lots of subscribers because raiding doesn't really matter as much as the other content that the majority prefer and that Cata didn't provide enough of.

Which makes your argument that LFR is a good business model all the more puzzling. You're arguing that raiding only matters to raiders, a minority group, so when raiding was at its highest point...

People walked off.

Just to be clear, I agree with you. I'd rather casual players were given ways to play and progress their characters that didn't involve something like LFR. The access in Icecrown allowed casual players who wanted to raid to do so. But resources spent on LFR, something that entices nobody to keep subscribing, supports a flawed business model according to you.

14/08/2012 18:09Posted by Stinkyedita

I am afraid this won't wash. It is wishful thinking and nothing more. 4.3 as I say had the highest level of raid participation in history. The only people who withdrew their goodwill were an irrelevant and tiny niche of snowflakes and if every single one of those left it would barely make a dent on subscription figures versus the losses we have seen this expansion.

I've given you a very specific example that disproves what you're saying, and you dismiss it because it's damning to your argument. You then proceed to personally slight those who enjoy the content that Blizzard are now so determined to make sure everyone sees.

You mentioned ignorance earlier on.

Add "irony" to today's spelling bee.